Return of the Jedi: the worst OT film? — Page 3

StormtroopersAreBetter said:

Speaking of watching Jedi again, those 3 "annoyances" I listed in the OP? I don't find them as annoying now as I did then. Must've been in a bad mood that day, huh? Mon does seem slightly saddened by the news she's delivering, Palpy does sound sarcastic on second thought, and whatever with Palpy's Force lightning.

Also, I think Han has some impressive foot strength. He managed to hold Lando and himself on to the barge using... only one foot I think. :/ (Hey! I was being sarcastic! Didn't you realize?)

 chewie was holding his feet. and skyjedi for ur info, the jedi temple was featured in the 1997 version. i heard no 'weesa free'. i heard 'yahoo!' that is one of the best parts of the movie. i like ewoks, but i can't stand that 'yup, yup" crap.

CO said:

rcb said:

 and the redone ending makes so much more sense then the original.

I have to take issue with that, because I think it doesn't make any sense. 

If you are referring to a younger Anakin put in the ghost scene, that totally dispels the point of ROTJ.  ROTJ is about the redemption of Darth Vader, and how the older Anakin, is conflicted thoughout the movie, and finally saves his son by killing the Emperor.  By showing an older Anakin standing there next to an older ObiWan, you see the character come full circle, as his redemption is complete.

By changing the ending in the SE with Hayden in the ghost scene, Lucas says that Anakin died on Mustafar, which would totally contradict ROTJ since it was the OLDER Anakin who was conflicted, it was the older Anakin who killed the Emperor, and the OLDER Anakin who tells Luke, "Tell your sister you were right...." 

By saying Anakin & Vader are two different people misses the point of ROTJ because they are ONE person the whole time, and even though he went by Darth Vader throughout the OT, there was always was that part of Anakin, the good guy that never left. 

Even Lucas doesn't even understand the original story he wrote back in 1983, just so he could stick some gimmick in the 2004 DVD's and try to tie the trilogies together.

 

I agree with all of that.

see you auntie said:

You know they added ropes around Han's feet in '97? *rolls eyes* It was a pretty silly situation in '83 but I guess they didn't have this 'rope' technology back then.

And as for the celebration scenes there has been discussion on the sudden uprising of the citizens on Coruscant and the significant population of Cloud City (didn't they flee?) which was also under control of the Empire (there wouldn't be much celebration if that was the case) but what about Tatooine?

Again it's been discussed that the planet is under control of the Hutts far from the reach of the Empire, why do they care? My problem is if I lived on a desert planet with two freakin' suns why would I be out partying in the middle of the street?

I liked when Mos Eisley was an under-populated backwater town reminiscent of a Sergio Leone western.

We saw in ANH that the imperials had plenty of authority on Tatooine. They acted like they owned the place. The imperial reach certainly extended there (and to space nearby -as in the Tantive IV battle). I think Lucas was thinking of them as being under the empire when he did the SE.

As for the sudden uprising of people on Coruscant, I think the thinking is that once the death star was blown up and Palpatine was killed the empire pretty much just ceased to exist everywhere. Not very realistic, but nor was teddy bears beating armored storm troopers with stones and that was the same film. Big discussion of this on another thread.

The "Wesa free!" in the Naboo celebration scene kind of underlines that idea, as does the ROTJ novelization finishing with "The empire was dead. Long live the rebellion." Pretty clearly that's the idea Lucasfilm had in 83 and Lucas had when he made the SE, despite the 90s EU continuing the empire.

I preferred the lonelier Mos Eisley too. Much more atmosphere.

Well, clearly Lucas envisioned Tatooine as under the empire when he made the SE.

As for your interpretation that the empire wasn't in authority over Tatooine in ANH, I think the screenplay and novelization suggest that's a mistaken interpretation. They both have talk of the empire potentially taking over the Lars farm. That wouldn't be a risk if Tatooine was securely under the Hutts and not under the empire. Clearly the empire are in control here. They just are not very interested in Tatooine, hence the lack of a heavier presence. If Tatooine was really under the authority of somebody independent of the empire, the imperials would not be able to act like they're in authority there. The local authorities would object. Clearly the local authorities have to bow to the empire because the empire rules this area. Tatooine is merely on the edge of the empire's area of power, hence a far weaker presence.

If the empire didn't own the place they wouldn't be at risk of taking over Owen Lars's farm. Just because they didn't have troops based there doesn't mean they didn't claim the place. Tatooine is just so far out and minor that the empire doesn't bother with a regular presence.

And Tatooine being under the Hutts is not at odds with it being under the empire. Alderaan clearly had its own government too, but it was part of the empire. Plus I don't think Tatooine was intended to be under Hutt government when the OOT was made.

I fucking love ROTJ. And it was so great experiencing the feeling of celebration when that film came out. 

CO said:

I have to take issue with that, because I think it doesn't make any sense. 

If you are referring to a younger Anakin put in the ghost scene, that totally dispels the point of ROTJ.  ROTJ is about the redemption of Darth Vader, and how the older Anakin, is conflicted thoughout the movie, and finally saves his son by killing the Emperor.  By showing an older Anakin standing there next to an older ObiWan, you see the character come full circle, as his redemption is complete.

By changing the ending in the SE with Hayden in the ghost scene, Lucas says that Anakin died on Mustafar, which would totally contradict ROTJ since it was the OLDER Anakin who was conflicted, it was the older Anakin who killed the Emperor, and the OLDER Anakin who tells Luke, "Tell your sister you were right...." 

By saying Anakin & Vader are two different people misses the point of ROTJ because they are ONE person the whole time, and even though he went by Darth Vader throughout the OT, there was always was that part of Anakin, the good guy that never left. 

Even Lucas doesn't even understand the original story he wrote back in 1983, just so he could stick some gimmick in the 2004 DVD's and try to tie the trilogies together.

 

You are 100% spot-on. This is what I've always said to people that claim putting Hayden in there makes sense. Not only does it NOT make sense, but it completely undercuts the point of the entire movie. The whole point is that Anakin was brought back to the good side before he physically died... "For once, let me look at you with my own eyes." It's crystal clear. You're right, it's just mind-blowing because it's like Lucas forgot his own story, practically the most important part of ROTJ.

he prolly thought the original anakin looked nothing like hayden and that's why he put him in there. plus i think he was trying to tie the PT in more with the OT.

see you auntie said:

Your comments about the ending of ROTJ lead me to believe you didn't grow up with the the original version, possibly the special edition was your first exposure to the film - forgive me if I'm wrong. That would be the only reason upon seeing the "Yub Nub" ending you thought "that's it?"

For the rest of us who grew up with the original film it was simply the only ending of the film and the way I see it it was a product of its time. To me it would be like removing or replacing The Power of Love from Back to the Future because the song is dated and Hewy Lewis and the News are so not cool anymore.

Sure Yub Nub is 'kiddy' but uh that's the Ewoks. If one didn't realise that an hour into the movie the ending isn't going to save it.

Personally I like Yub Nub because I think it's funny (I'm laughing with it not at it) and it's so ridiculously upbeat how can you not like it.

 i saw the OT a hundered times and i found that the new ending actually opened the galaxy somewat. yea we knew endor was won, but how did the other planets react. i think its pretty cool that he added that and the music also. the "yub nub" just doesn't do it for me when i look back on it.

Nanner Split said:

In regards to the "Tatooine being under the Empire's control" discussion, I always thought that it was outside of Imperial control, and the only reason the stormtroopers were there was because they were sent to hunt for the droids. Because ANH is the only film where we actually see any sort of Republic/Imperial troops on the planet, isn't it?

It's inside imperial control, because in the screenplay (and deleted scenes I think) Biggs suggests that the empire might take over the Lars farm. Biggs points out that the empire is nationalizing commerce in the core systems and says it won't be long before Owen is just a tenant slaving for the empire. This implies Tatooine is in the empire's area of control. If they were outside imperial territory they would be saying "Those poor fuckers in the empire will be all tenants soon, lucky for us that we're not in the empire." Luke says the empire won't bother with "this rock", meaning Tatooine is an insignificant planet (and on the outer rim) so the empire doesn't bother with it, hence the lack of significant imperial presence.

If the Hutts or some other government had an independent government going, independent of the empire, they wouldn't let imperial soldiers go around doing whatever they liked there.

There's no opportunity to show imperial troops on Tatooine in ROTJ, it's just Jabba's place that's shown. There's not going to be imperials there. And Tatooine isn't in ESB. Tatooine is outside the republic in the prequels, but that doesn't mean it's outside the empire in the OT. The empire is not bound to stick to the republic's boundaries. It can expand. Plus we don't know that Lucas envisioned the planet as being outside the republic when he was making the OT.

there's also and imperial acadamy on tatooine. that's how most rebels started out, but some defected to the rebellion.

At the end of Jedi, I so totally don't care about seeing these anonymous crowds frolic in phony cartoon envirironments, it might as well be shots from Spaceballs. And that new music...am I in a new age store? Should I buy these candles?