Return of the Jedi: the worst OT film? — Page 2

While I mostly agreed with CO's post (and glad to see he's back!), I wouldn't go so far as to say that ROTJ doesn't have any "it" moments.  It does... it's just that they're all located in the final act, rather than the previous movies that have really good moments throughout.  As much as I love Leia in that bikini, she simply can't carry the entire movie up to its climax (yeah, I'm stepping knee-deep into innuendo, I know).  Everything leading up to the final act is meh (with the first act being less than meh), and only the last half hour or so really lives up to Star Wars standards.  There's Luke briefly giving into his anger and then paying the price for not carrying it out, and there's Luke and Lando barely escaping from the Death Star in the nick of time.  Those moments work for me every time, and they're spectacular payoffs.  However, they just don't save the rest of the movie from getting bogged down in itself.  And like others have pointed out, that doesn't make it bad (except for Luke's stupid plan at Jabba's palace, which is just horrible, but even that took me over a decade to realize).  There are many genuinely good moments all throughout ROTJ, but until the end, it's just lacking that spark that the other two had, and that's an opinion I've carried (although not always been able to articulate) ever since my first viewing of it when I was nine.

EDIT:  Heh, it looks like I may have coined a phrase by referring to the ROTJ lightsaber as a whiffle ball bat!  Yay!

CO said:

What ROTJ lacks is that great scene that gives you goosebumps.

SW goosebump moments:
-Luke looking at the charred remains of Owen & Beru and realizing his destiny

-Luke looking at the Binary Sunset

-Luke & Leia swinging across the Death Star to that great John Williams score

-Obiwan smiling at Luke as Vader cuts him down and Luke screaming, "NOO!"

-Han telling Luke, "You're all clear kid!"  and Luke blowing up the deathstar.

 

ESB:

-Yoda lifting the X-Wing to that great John Williams score

-Han telling Leia, "I know."  then being frozen in carbonite while Leia stares Darth Vader.

-Vader telling Luke, "No, I am your father!"

-The ending of ESB as Lando/Chewy fly away and Luke,Leia, C3PO and R2 stare out at the galaxy.

 

I honestly can't think of any scene in ROTJ that gives me goosebumps, there are great scenes like the Throne Room scene, but nothing that gets me like SW & ESB, that is the difference as to why I think ROTJ is the worst.

WHAT?!?! 

I just knew when I opened the topic that the Palace rescue plan would be bought up, it didn't take long at all ;) I'll mention a couple of things and tell me if they aren't "moments"

- Luke throwing down his lightsaber in defiance to the Emperor " I am a Jedi" blah blah you know the rest....

- Vaders funeral pyre (close to the binary sunset in my opinion)

Yeah yeah yeah they both take place in the finale, so what?

Sluggo bought up ROTJ being slow but one could argue the ESB especially for children is slow. Admittedly after a stellar opening all you get before the final duel is a chase in the asteroids. Now this is not a criticism (it's the 'slow' moments that allow for meaning and character) it's extremely dumbing it down but as a kid maintenance and repairs on the Falcon hardly got me excited.

The only dull part for me is between the end of the speeder bike chase and the beginning of the infiltration of the bunker. The ewok battle can be bland but the fact that it alternates between the space battle and the throne room, although a little schizophrenic, more than passes the time.

The ROTJ space battle is pretty epic but loses points for unoriginality. Yet I think that is more than made up for by the Speeder Bike chase and Rancor. Even if you dislike the whole Jabba sequence you got to love the Rancor, right?.

Luke's arrival at Jabba's Palace shrouded in mystery was badass wasn't it and you can't deny that when Luke's new lightsaber shoots out of R2 freaking D2 it doesn't get the blood pumping?

CO brought up the focus on Vader in ROTJ and having to sympathise with what is essentially the villain. I never sympathised with Vader or felt sorry for him, if that's the intent of the film so be it, I see it more as empathising with Luke.

Imagine Luke's torment as he finds out his father who he believed was a hero turns out to be the galaxy's biggest evil. He so longs for a father figure he never had. He clutched at Obi Wan if only briefly, it would be mighty tempting to side with Vader if only for that validation when all else you've stood for has been for good. This is only possible because of Vader, it's not about him as I see it.

ROTJ is Luke's plight, Vader gets Luke where he needs to be, he's a living (or not so much) example of the wrong choices for Luke to make. Luke's belief in good as exemplified by his belief in the good in Vader is what makes him the hero (and Jedi) that he is. It's what saved him more importantly metaphorically from the Emperor even if it was what saved him also literally.

Which brings me to another point. ROTJ is with out a doubt Luke's movie. As Luke was my hero as a kid it's probably the reason why I love ROTJ so much. To make a generalisation I guess you could say that if you are a Han devotee you favor ESB and if Luke is your hero as he was mine you love ROTJ. Not to make this a ESB vs ROTJ debate; ESB is the superior film.

But I guess that's where ROTJ loses further points, the fact that Han and Leia are pushed to the side although ROTJ does further solidify Lando's badassness.

While I would agree that out of the 3 films ROTJ is (relatively speaking) the worst, I would argue that it does have plenty of moments and I've saved my ace for last, a moment that can not be argued with and trumps all others - "IT'S A TRAP!"

And....

Yub Nub for life!

edit: while I was taking my sweet time making this post Mielr beat me to it in rgards to certain points.

see you auntie said:

Sluggo bought up ROTJ being slow but one could argue the ESB especially for children is slow. Admittedly after a stellar opening all you get before the final duel is a chase in the asteroids. Now this is not a criticism (it's the 'slow' moments that allow for meaning and character) it's extremely dumbing it down but as a kid maintenance and repairs on the Falcon hardly got me excited.

You could make that argument about Star Wars, too! The whole R2/3p0 scene in the desert, R2 getting captured by the Jawas, all the Vader/Tarkin chit-chat, etc. I think Star Wars takes a lot longer to get going than the other 2 films do.

I showed the OT to two kids for their first time several years ago, and the boy couldn't sit still thru the first 30 minutes of Star Wars. I kept telling him to sit down and watch, and he kept saying stuff like "when does it start getting exciting?" :-P

Oh sure thaty's fine. But I was just comparing SW sequels. Because personally I see it a bit as apples and oranges.

SW being the first has the 'burden' of having to set up the world (or in this case universe) that the film is set in, so it can be excused a bit for being slow going. I've never had that problem as the opening scene should be enthralling enough for you, then the Jawas holy crap. I was both terrified and enthralled by them as a child. Oh did I mention the talking robots!

ESB being a sequel certainly didn't have that problem, we were familiar with the universe it was set in, knew who Luke, Han and Leia were and why Vader/Empire were looking for them it took full advantage of that wasting no time to put them in peril. One of the reasons why it's a freaking great film (and sequel).

I still think it's pretty lame the beginning of Jedi was set on Tatooine. Jabba could of been from any planet but as discuused a little while ago in another thread the end of ESB ruined that ;)

edit: Great topic by the way. It's got us talking about films we love* not bitching about ones we don't^. It's got some old school posters in here mixed with some new. The last topic like this that comes to mind was the one previously mentioned on the Han recue attempt even though I saw through all that nonsense ;).

*Some don't

^A generalisation. Not speaking about everyone.

Slightly off topic but still on the point of ROTJ - Is the GOUT transfer the best of the trilogy?

From a non-technical perspective I find that out of the three I can watch it with the most ease. In saying that I can watch all of them but to me Jedi has the least issues.

CO, do you own the GOUT?

That's cool I get your point about not being able to watch them due to the frustrations associated the lack of a proper restoration.

It's really in the eye of the beholder but I own a 48" HDTV and while I admit they're less than spectacular and don't watch them often, I can still enjoy watching the GOUT. That said I'd find in near impossible if the kind soul on these very boards didn't create a tutorial on how to convert them to anamorphic.

But this is only page 2 so  I do not wish to derail this topic any further.

see you auntie said:

- Luke throwing down his lightsaber in defiance to the Emperor " I am a Jedi" blah blah you know the rest....

- Vaders funeral pyre (close to the binary sunset in my opinion)

Those two bits are in my top five favorite scenes from any SW film. It are scenes like that that keep me from really being able to talk this movie down. I feel like I should hate it for its flaws, but some things in it are so over the top amazingly punch-you-in-the-face-knock-you-out-cold-and-take-your-wallet wonderful, I just can't help but love the thing. If only the PT could have managed any moments like those...

Well, just read my sig. God, how I love that moment. Not to argue with the previous poster, but I did not interpret Luke casting his lightsaber aside as defiant. It was serene. Confident. In that moment, Luke knows that he has been tested, and this time (unlike his failure at the cave from ESB) he is a Jedi. I think he finally felt the force being with him in the way Obi-Wan spoke of in SW.

That's why Luke calling out for his father, while not ruining the scene, kind of detracted from it. That scene would have worked just as well without Luke calling for his father - but I guess GL had to overexplain yet another detail.

CO said:

I have seen the movies hundreds of times in my life, but since '04, I just get pissed off when I pop them in.  Either I can watch a high quality transfer on DVD and get annoyed with all the stupid changes, or see the versions I truly love in a blurry, grainy quality.  Either way, I get annoyed!!!!

Me too actually. It is not that I ever made a concious decision not to watch them anymore, but I just can't find the desire too. I wouldn't dream of putting in the SE, because like you they piss me off. And while the GOUT looks okay on my small screen, I just haven't felt like watching them on the small screen. My parents have this massive projection TV in their basement. Everytime I visit I make a point to watch at least one movie on that big screen. One time I poped in the GOUT and started to watch it, but it looked so awful, I ejected it before the Tantive IV scene was even over and decided to watch my old non-anamorphic widescreen Planet of the Apes instead. Somehow it still looked pretty good on the big TV, despite being non-anamorphic. Just shows how awful the GOUT really is.

The next time I watch any SW film, it will be when I can actually enjoy it. If that day never comes, then so be it. Kind of silly, since I have been watching it in VHS quality all my life. But we get used to things. VHS used to be the standard, for the average guy, it was the best quality there was. Now we are spoiled with DVD. Just try going back and watching a VHS tape now, the quality is awful, because we are so used to the clearity of DVD. By watching the GOUT, I am actually watching it in better quality than I have been all my life, but now that I am used to seeing other films in so much higher quality, it really looks unbearably awful. 

see you auntie said:

 Great topic by the way. It's got us talking about films we love* not bitching about ones we don't^. It's got some old school posters in here mixed with some new. The last topic like this that comes to mind was the one previously mentioned on the Han recue attempt even though I saw through all that nonsense ;).

I agree- talking about all the great scenes in ROTJ makes me want to watch it again.

I don't watch any of the OT films much anymore mainly because I've seen them sooooooo many times. Also, my new HDTV (just a 32") doesn't have a proper 'zoom' function, nor does my DVD player, so I have to watch the GOUT discs windowboxed, which is annoying. 

I'll give them all another viewing when I get another DVD player that zooms.

The ROTJ ending made perfect sense in 1983- and it still does to me (not watching the PT helps). :-)

Naboo and The Jedi Temple on Coruscant were not in the 1997 celebration scenes, as then neither existed they are prequel made up things like Jar Jar Binks saying "weesa free".

I guess we should be glad Lucas could have  had the characters saying "May the Midi-Chlorians be with you"

Speaking of watching Jedi again, those 3 "annoyances" I listed in the OP? I don't find them as annoying now as I did then. Must've been in a bad mood that day, huh? Mon does seem slightly saddened by the news she's delivering, Palpy does sound sarcastic on second thought, and whatever with Palpy's Force lightning.

Also, I think Han has some impressive foot strength. He managed to hold Lando and himself on to the barge using... only one foot I think. :/ (Hey! I was being sarcastic! Didn't you realize?)