Im really looking forward to this - cant believe the last 2 pages of your thread are mostly about the crawl lol! theres a lot of excitement about this one :)
oh yeah...i like the crawl but have you considered.....
jking:)
edit: when you release it, will it be on fanedit.info?
You can never go home again, but i guess you can shop there.
I was about to pop you one, son. :)
Yeah, .info should be where you'll find it. I'll share the links on tehparadox.com too probably. I don't do newsgroups, and bit torrent takes too long.
They're going to be MU links as that's the only one I'm a member of.
TheBoost said:
SpenceEdit said:
Plus if he had told Luke this in the first place, would Luke have gone with him? Would he have tried to reason with Vader and be killed, thus ending their last hope at restoring balance? If I were Obi-Wan, I wouldn't have told him till he was ready, and unfortunately he found out from Vader himself long before that time.
It's also worth noting how much Luke didn't know. Dude didn't even know what the Force was, probably didn't know what a Jedi was and didn't know his dad was one. Add on that there's a Dark Side that made his dad evil and that kind old Ben tossed him in a volcano and he's now the evilest man alive... .... talk about a mind blowing experience. If I was Luke I'd go to the cantina and drink myself to oblivion.
But, as presented, Luke faces worse than that. He gets this exact same message in a single terrible moment -- but with the added mental anguish that his pals Yoda and Ben are revealed as liars (by no less than Darth Vader himself). Vader's the only one who tells him the truth. And Luke is man enough to face it and overcome it. He surely could have handled it a few hours earlier back on Degobah. He could have handled it back in Obi Wan's hut on Tatooine. Luke is a hero and lying to him instead of trusting him makes Obi Wan and Yoda deeply flawed. However, as stated, they appear deeply flawed in the prequels as well and contribute greatly to Anakin's fall.
I've wrestled with this one a long time. To me there are 2 Star Wars. There's the one released in 1977 where Obi Wan is noble. Then there's the Saga where they change Vader into Luke's dad and Obi Wan into a liar and manipulator. In the Saga, the real heroes are the Skywalkers.
It's interesting how I think this edit serves both of our interpretations. The "lie" is a mysterious part of Star Wars and this edit does more to honor Luke's inner life than anyone's ever tried before.
There's actually something rather brilliant there that I think George did: He made it understandable why Anakin distrusts the Jedi. Though they represent all that is good in the galaxy, they scheme and plot, bicker, become angry, sad, and emotionally involved. All the things they aren't supposed to do. This is why the force needed to be balanced. This is also why the Jedi didn't really understand what balancing the force really meant. It meant, basically, that there needed to be a blank slate so they can start over.
Vader cleansed the galaxy of the Jedi and defeated the only Sith, removing himself as the only remaining Sith in the process. So in the end, we're left with one genuinely good soul, one man that can uphold everything the Jedi are meant to uphold: Luke Skywalker. And the Force is balanced.
Lucas told that very successfully, and to me that is why the prequels will never be a failure in my eyes. Failure at certain things? Absolutely. But a complete waste? Far from it.
I agree with the points you make, but I'd say Lucas left a lot of that material for the fan-editors to clarify!
In support of your argument-- I saw that idea building since the first time I saw TPM. I was SURE that "midiclorians" were an example of it. Midiclorians seemed to me an example of how bureaucratic the Jedi had become. They were actually counting particles of Force! Can you get more misguided? Knowing that we were headed toward the downfall of everything and that Anakin was the proverbial "viper in the nest", I thought it was brilliant.
If only it were followed up on.
But it is good insight on your part that Luke is all that's left in the end-- that's why "no ghosts" feels so right. The ghosts throw that part of the story completely off balance. You're right that cutting Obi Wan down in ESB would be a good change too-- clarifying that death actually means something to these Jedi.
Yeah, I hate that death for Obi-Wan and Yoda (and Vader, who deserves to live on least of all) has no finality for them. There's no consequences.
That's a big problem with ROTJ in general. There's very little consequences for any of the actions that are made. When Vader dies, he should die. That his last moment is his redemption makes the story rather beautiful. Instead, he comes back ten minutes later, smiling and happy.
He didn't earn that. His one final act should give him peace in death. So why have him live on? What's the point, since his story arc is complete? Why have any of them come back for that matter? What's accomplished other than an overly happy ending?
Well I say give me symbolism and emotion over a happy ending any day. That's where I think I didn't get editing this right previously. The Ewoks aren't the problem. The fact that you laugh when Ewoks get killed is the problem. The fact that the movie ends on a high note, but doesn't really have any weight to it is the problem. You don't need Han or Lando to die to make the movie effective. You need to be worried that they will die, and then it is even more effective. You need to get involved. You need to care. And you need to come away affected by the story.
EDIT: Wow, I didn't realize how fired up I get about this stuff! This is why I love movies.
SpenceEdit said:
Well I say give me symbolism and emotion over a happy ending any day. That's where I think I didn't get editing this right previously. The Ewoks aren't the problem. The fact that you laugh when Ewoks gets killed is the problem. The fact that the movie ends on a high note, but doesn't really have any weight to it is the problem. You don't need Han or Lando to die to make the movie effective. You need to be worried that they will die, and then it is even more effective. You need to get involved. You need to care. And you need to come away affected by the story.
I care.
I like your reasoning, Spence. We do not need an overly happy ending. We need to empathize with the characters and eventually see them come into full character arcs.
Which I tried to do as much as possible. Obviously Lando doesn't need much more than to be excited his ass didn't get fried when the Death Star blew up, but seeing Han and Leia happily kiss, without jealousy or confusion, and then seeing Luke burning his fathers body, cementing the storyline of bringing "balance to the force," should be a bit more involving than Care Bear Patty-Cake. I hope, anyway.
I had an amusing exchange with a friend yesterday when I told him about this edit. it went like this (warning, foul language):
friend: You changed the ending?
spence: Yep.
friend: Did you put Sebastian Shaw back in?
spence: Nope.
friend: What?!
spence: I didn't put anyone in. There's no force ghosts.
friend: ...Fuck you.
spence: Wait, what? You're that mad about that?
friend: No, that was a "that's awesome" fuck you.
spence: Oh...thanks.
SpenceEdit said:
friend: No, that was a "that's awesome" f@*k you.
Haha that's pretty funny. Hope your friend enjoys the edit once you're done.
He's actually the one that saw a preivew of the edit, but the ending wasn't done when he saw it so he didn't know what had been changed. He liked the preview alot, and that was with no ending, crappy audio cuts, no new crawl and no Death Star shots.
EDIT: Sorry for all my musings today. As I studied screenwriting, I get pretty into all that structure/storytelling stuff. I know it isn't particularly on topic, but to be honest I don't really have any updates for you. Bob and i have been talking back and forth about the new shots, and I'm finishing up my bonus features. The bit at the end of releasing a fanedit is the worst, because you're ready to just get it out there, but can't yet haha.
I appreciate the musings and the insight into your p.o.v.
I imagine your Episode I edit would push some of these ideas to the forefront as well?
SpenceEdit said:
friend: You changed the ending?
spence: Yep.
friend: Did you put Sebastian Shaw back in?
spence: Nope.
friend: What?!
spence: I didn't put anyone in. There's no force ghosts.
In the early drafts of Empire, Luke found the Kaibur crystal which lead him to Yoda. It would be interesting to see something like worked into an edit to eliminate the force ghosts.
I wonder of Ben's ghost in Empire could be reworked into a hologram...
You still have Ben's disembodied voice guiding Luke at the end of Star Wars.
Spence, just wondering....
If you have removed the entire Obi Wan scene, at what point does Luke (and the audience) learn that Leia is his sister?
If this is done off-screen (before the movie begins?) have you removed Yoda's dying words to Luke?
Anyhoo, keep up the good work. Really looking forward to this one :o)
Spoiler free for the ST
I think it's just implied that Luke figures it out on his own. Which, I must admit, is an improvement in my mind (as someone who's dead set against keeping the brother/sister subplot in any of the movies).
Exactly right, we now get to see Luke work it out on his own.
That's actually a wise move since we can actually see that Luke is getting wiser and can figure things out more on his own with the enlightenment of being a Jedi.
Again, I discuss this a bit in my commentary, but Luke is too often told what to do throughout all three movies. Removing the force ghosts means that, once Yoda dies, he's essntially on his own. There's no dialogue about this, but hopefully that feeling is conveyed. It's just him now. The last of the Jedi. And he has nobody to help him.
Just got some of the shots from Bob last night. Awesome sauce. They look great. He's got two more to finish and then the movie is ready.
I should be able to finish up the bonus features over the next two days. March 1st is looking good.
Can't wait!
Agreed! This is the most exciting Star Wars project in a long, long time... Since before the dark times. Before... the Prequels. ;-P
I kid, I kid. I kid the PT because I love the PT. But this is what I would have asked for in the "Special Edition" release. This is better than finding lost footage or better f/x. This is rare and inspired. Come on, Christmas!
And by Christmas, you mean March 1st, right?
Somethings shouldn't be kidded about.
I thought he meant Smarch 1st.
March 1 is the new Christmas!