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Return Of The Jedi - a General Random Thoughts thread — Page 5

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Mocata said:

imperialscum said:

Mocata said:

The number of capital ships alone makes it kind of ridiculous. Admiral Piett says they have orders not to engage, but what happened after DSII exploded did they all just retreat?

Well the only explanation for their retreat (or destruction) would be the one I mentioned before. See below:

imperialscum said:

Assuming the inspiration came from WW2 (as stated by Lucas), where ships were very vulnerable to air attack, I guess the same could apply to Star Wars universe. The explanation then could be that since imperial ships initially sent all TIE fighters to engage the rebel fleet and they themselves did not attack, their TIE fighter complement was destroyed by rebel fighters and ships. Then by the time the Death Star was destroyed, the imperial ships were left extremely vulnerable without any TIE fighter protection.

For example, in the pacific theatre of WW2, aircraft carriers were quite useless without aircraft cover (and other type of ships even more so by default) if enemy had air power. In both Battle of the Coral Sea and Battle of the Santa Cruz Islands Japanese basically achieved tactical victory, but since they lost almost the entire aircraft complement in the air attacks on US fleet, they were forced to retreat. Like I said, ships were very vulnerable to air attacks without air cover.

I understand this metaphor but Admiral Ackbar says that the fleet “won’t last long against those Star Destroyers” so we are led to believe they are perfectly capable of shooting down the rebel fighters.

Well yes, it still makes sense within the same metaphor framework. While a star destroyer is a carrier, it is also a battleship at the same time, and getting into range of battleship will get your carrier in a big trouble. As long as you can stay out of the range of their guns, you can use bombers to attack them. That is what WW2 carrier would do; stay away from the the battleships and use long-ranged bombers to attack them.

So in that sense, Ackbar’s “we won’t last long against those star destroyers” makes complete sense, since it was a reply to Lando’s suggestion of getting into their gun range. Assuming the majority of star destroyer fighter complement was destroyed by a combination of rebel fighters and guns from the rebel ships, the rebel fleet could just keep the range and use their bombers to attack star destroyers (that were without fighter cover at that point) from a distance.

真実

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I think Lapti Nek may be an exerciseing Song?

Basic translation

Feel my body growing
My bones have started glowing, ooh
Wow!
The time has come for showing
That I'll shape you up and work you out
My body feels excitin'
My soul is synthesizin'
My whole frame is jumpin'
I'm workin' out and havin' fun


Work it out, you've got to move your soul
Work it out, you've got to feel the heat
Work it out, you've got to move your soul
Wow!


Feel my body growing
My body feels excitin'
My soul is synthesizin'
My whole frame is jumpin'
The time has come for showing
I'll shape you up and work you out

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Lapti_Nek/Legends

Jabba was trying to lose weight.

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Bong frogs are pretty fattening.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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I think Lapti Nek is just an alien cover version of ‘You Should Be Dancing’ by the Bee Gees. Seriously, someone needs to do a mash-up of those two songs…

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On From Star Wars to Jedi you can hear the original English vocals.
It’s a workout song, for sure. I’ve always wondered why. AFAICT, the song was written for the movie, so… ?
Actually, after thinking about it today, weird exercise songs were kinda popular around this time…
Still makes no sense for the setting, but.

Ray’s Lounge
Biggs in ANH edit idea
ROTJ opening edit idea

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ray_afraid said:

On From Star Wars to Jedi you can hear the original English vocals.
It’s a workout song, for sure. I’ve always wondered why. AFAICT, the song was written for the movie, so… ?
Actually, after thinking about it today, weird exercise songs were kinda popular around this time…
Still makes no sense for the setting, but.

Like I said Jabba has gotan so fat he can’t get off his “Hoversled”
So he is trying to lose weight. But he keeps eating frogs so it never works.

Also i saw this documentary
the man looks like Jabba.
The HEAVIEST Man in the World | Body Bizarre
https://youtu.be/d8_m_51jswo

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Would some of you care to share aspects of the film that you like and dislike about this film? I wasn’t around when the film came out, but I’m curious if any of you recall what complaints people had about the movie when it released.

In your opinion, do you agree with the common belief that ROTJ is the weakest of the OT films? If so, why?

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red5-626 said:

ray_afraid said:

On From Star Wars to Jedi you can hear the original English vocals.
It’s a workout song, for sure. I’ve always wondered why. AFAICT, the song was written for the movie, so… ?
Actually, after thinking about it today, weird exercise songs were kinda popular around this time…
Still makes no sense for the setting, but.

Like I said Jabba has gotan so fat he can’t get off his “Hoversled”
So he is trying to lose weight. But he keeps eating frogs so it never works.

Back when Jabba was Leto II Atreides, they called it “the Royal Cart”.

“That Darth Vader, man. Sure does love eating Jedi.”

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RogueLeader said:

Would some of you care to share aspects of the film that you like and dislike about this film? I wasn’t around when the film came out, but I’m curious if any of you recall what complaints people had about the movie when it released.

In your opinion, do you agree with the common belief that ROTJ is the weakest of the OT films? If so, why?

I enjoyed ROTJ when it came out, but it was the first (and not the last!) SW film where I found myself going “huh?” a lot! Basically it was the usual stuff - the lighter tone, the many muppets, strangely stiff delivery of lines etc etc. I hated the Leia-as-sister thing (and still do) and I still maintain that Luke didn’t actually save the galaxy - a fact that renders his entire ‘new hope’ journey somewhat meaningless to me.

As a fan I never actually allowed myself to truly accept that I didn’t like the film until I started getting a sense of the ROTJ that could have been - obviously guys like Larry Kasdan and Gary Kurtz and Harrison Ford have come out in favour of Han’s sacrificial death and a generally deeper/bleaker finale. I even stumbled across a Mark Hamill interview where he said he’d expected to come back in ROTJ as a much grimmer character (and even more bulked up than the ‘muscle-Luke’ of Dagobah 1980) - so this kind of reinforced my own expectations post-TESB and edged me towards admitting my own disappointment.

Ultimately ROTJ sits in the prequel camp for me - great ideas but not well executed. But that’s just me. I actually think that TROS does ROTJ better, but that’s probably a conversation for another thread!

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I have similar views to the above. At school, ROTJ was commonly known as “Muppets in Space” due to some of the silliness in Jabba’s palace and the ewoks. The Leia/Luke twist felt contrived, and I hated Boba Fett’s demise by total fluke.

On the plus side, I thought the speeder bike scenes and final space battle were truly epic, and loved the visuals and atmosphere in the throne room.

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Shopping Maul said:

I still maintain that Luke didn’t actually save the galaxy - a fact that renders his entire ‘new hope’ journey somewhat meaningless to me.

Luke was the only one who could get through to Vader. Vader was the only one who could destroy the Emperor.
Without Luke, there’s no hope. He saved the galaxy by redeeming his father. (or, by Returning the Jedi, if you will)

I also hate the sister thing. Luke should have gone off alone in search of “The Other” at the end.

Ray’s Lounge
Biggs in ANH edit idea
ROTJ opening edit idea

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My reactions at the time to Jedi were:

I didn’t mind Jabba’s palace in general – I didn’t really notice how bad some of the puppets were until I re-watched it later.

I didn’t mind the second Death Star. Not just because of the trap element, but again, I was ten, so I would tolerate a lot of recycled material (and phoned-in performances…).

The Leia-as-sister bit seemed more WTF than Vader-as-father, except without the equivalent emotional/character development payoff.

The Ewoks felt somewhere between stupid and pandering (and I was ten, so I wasn’t picky).

But mostly I was sad that Star Wars was over after only three movies. It didn’t really occur to me at the time how badly things could go if they kept making more of them. I was certain George Lucas could have still made more great Star Wars movies after Jedi, so they way it ended the saga so decisively was probably the biggest blow. Again, not-cynical-enough ten year old.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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Shopping Maul said:

As a fan I never actually allowed myself to truly accept that I didn’t like the film until I started getting a sense of the ROTJ that could have been - obviously guys like Larry Kasdan and Gary Kurtz and Harrison Ford have come out in favour of Han’s sacrificial death and a generally deeper/bleaker finale.

I am still surprised when people are bringing up Kurtz when it comes to ROTJ. He was fired and replaced by Kazanjian in the middle of ESB principal photography. He basically had nothing to do with ROTJ, let alone being aware of any details such as Kasdan’s and Ford’s suggestion to kill off Han. He basically just jumped on the “ROTJ should have been darker” bandwagon years later, while probably still being resentful of his removal from ESB.

Now considering Kasdan’s and Ford’s suggestion, killing off Han would have not have made the story and the film magically any better.

真実

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I think killing off both Han & Leia was part of George’s plan for ROTJ back during the ESB days, when he was still thinking about continuing with a Sequel Trilogy set immediately afterward.

And I’ve said before, the “Han dies, Leia becomes queen, Luke wanders off” idea is basically the ending of Mad Max Fury Road, in regards to the Nux/Furiosa/Max character arcs.

“That Darth Vader, man. Sure does love eating Jedi.”

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imperialscum said:

I am still surprised when people are bringing up Kurtz when it comes to ROTJ. He was fired and replaced by Kazanjian in the middle of ESB principal photography. He basically had nothing to do with ROTJ, let alone being aware of any details such as Kasdan’s and Ford’s suggestion to kill off Han.

Actually, I didn’t know this. Are you sure? I’ve seen BTS footage of Kurtz in the editing and/or scoring sessions, which I would assume would’ve post-production.

EDIT:
There…I had to go find it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eyc82C3yc0s

YouTubers!
Attack of the Clones | Alternate Timeline Edit
https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/SSWRs-Attack-of-the-Clones-Alternate-Timeline-Edit/id/66888
My OLD Return of the Jedi thread. Be gentle.
https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/ROTJ-Fan-O-Matic-3-new-clips/id/7919

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The original making of ESB book, Once Upon a Galaxy has Kurtz around well into the post production period.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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There are numerous sources stating that he was effectively (but not officially) replaced by Kazanjian four weeks before filming ended. I would assume that they were obliged to officially keep him around until the end in order not to get in trouble with Producers Guild of America. But then you can guess how much his opinion counted at that point.

真実

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Gary Kurtz did send in a letter of resignation as a Director of ‘Star Wars Productions Ltd’ in December of 1979 - whether that also infringed his job as Producer on the film… I don’t know. As Wook stated above, Kurtz was involved in the post-production on Empire.

Kurtz was also asked to produce Revenge Of The Jedi - which he turned down for the reasons we all know…
 

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Han dying would have been a tremendous slap in the face.
We just spent a movie watching Han & Leia fall in love which ends tragically, but a glimmer of hope. That hope needs to pay off, not die off.
I think Hans character was underused & at times misunderstood in Jedi, but killing him isn’t the answer.

Also, the “Leia becomes Queen” thing…
Queen of what? She was the princess of a planet that was destroyed years ago. When we first meet her, she’s mostly using the princess thing as a ruse, hiding the fact that she’s part of the Rebel military.

Ray’s Lounge
Biggs in ANH edit idea
ROTJ opening edit idea

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I thought George’s beef was with the DGA and that didn’t happen until Empire was finished? The IMDB lists Kazanjian as an uncredited producer on ESB, but how much overlap was there between the end of Empire’s production and the beginning of pre-production on Raiders?
From what I’ve read about The Shining both ESB and Raiders were waiting for Kubrick to finish at Elstree so they could move into the soundstages. Howard would have been a very busy guy juggling two Lucasfilm productions at once.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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ray_afraid said:

Han dying would have been a tremendous slap in the face.
We just spent a movie watching Han & Leia fall in love which ends tragically, but a glimmer of hope. That hope needs to pay off, not die off.
I think Hans character was underused & at times misunderstood in Jedi, but killing him isn’t the answer.

Also, the “Leia becomes Queen” thing…
Queen of what? She was the princess of a planet that was destroyed years ago. When we first meet her, she’s mostly using the princess thing as a ruse, hiding the fact that she’s part of the Rebel military.

I wouldn’t put it past George, given the slaughter fest that is the first ten minutes of Battle For Endor. And I thought Alien 3 was a knee to the groin! 😉

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Where were you in '77?