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Return Of The Jedi - a General Random Thoughts thread — Page 2

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darklordoftech said:

I don’t think Anakin should have become a ghost at the end. Vader was confused when Obi-Wan became a ghost, so how could Vader possibly become a ghost himself?

Vader was confused when Obi-Wan’s body vanished, he never actually saw Ben as a ghost or seemed to know it was possible. In ESB he says Obi Wan can no longer help Luke.

I’ve long presumed Ben and Yoda helped Anakin with becoming a ghost.

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It’s a promotional image made in 1983. It appeared on lobby cards:

And on the cover of Cinefex:

Han: Hey Lando! You kept your promise, right? Not a scratch?
Lando: Well, what’s left of her isn’t scratched. All the scratched parts got knocked off along the way.
Han (exasperated): Knocked off?!

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Ah that’s what I’m thinking off, the magazine cover. It’s weird though, the airbrushed look.

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I was watching ANH for the 8 billionth time this weekend and found myself responding to Owen’s “he died around the same time as your father” line re Obi Wan. It occurred to me that a similar angle would have worked for Anakin. I think the one thing Obi Wan and Owen Lars might have agreed upon is the notion of preserving Anakin’s reputation (for Luke’s sake if nothing else) via the official line that Anakin was murdered by the Empire. Of course Owen would go a step further in stating Anakin was merely a navigator on a spice freighter, but it’s still plausible that Obi Wan would agree to run with the ‘your father was murdered’ narrative to keep the peace all round. In ROTJ Obi Wan could admit to Luke that he’d agreed to this way back when, but fully intended to disclose the truth once Luke had completed his training. I think this would be more plausible than “a certain point of view”.

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I think Obi-Wan believed Anakin was (literally, biologically) dead when he dropped off Luke, and that Owen would have also. And that it wasn’t until later that he learned Vader survived. It explains why they thought taking Luke there was a sane idea and more comfortably fits in with what we hear from Owen and Beru in ANH.

Initiating self-destruct countdown…

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Hal 9000 said:

I think Obi-Wan believed Anakin was (literally, biologically) dead when he dropped off Luke, and that Owen would have also. And that it wasn’t until later that he learned Vader survived. It explains why they thought taking Luke there was a sane idea and more comfortably fits in with what we hear from Owen and Beru in ANH.

Yes, but the question of leaving Luke at the family homestead with his old surname is a separate issue (exacerbated by the prequels of course!). I’m talking specifically about Obi Wan’s ‘certain point of view’ which, let’s face it, just doesn’t feel right. If he’d said in ANH “Vader hunted the Jedi down, your father died in the purge” or something similar, it might make more sense. My contention is that Obi should’ve owned that original lie. It would be much more plausible if he had actually lied for a good reason - namely an agreement with Owen for the benefit of Luke. The whole ‘certain point of view’ thing seems way too shifty, but simply going with “I promised your uncle I would say Anakin had been murdered” is very plausible and guards against any erosion of Obi Wan’s nobility. It would also lend some depth to Owen’s position as someone who genuinely cared for Luke’s well-being.

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I don’t read any of the expanded universe stuff or the tie-in novels or comics, so these are just thoughts/questions I had while watching the 4K blu-ray of ROTJ earlier today.

Was Leia demoted within the Rebel Alliance or something? She’s seen barking orders in ESB. In ROTJ, she has no clue what’s going on and that Han was put in command of leading the assault on the shield generator. Somehow known traitors, gamblers, mercenaries and smugglers were advanced within the Rebel ranks ahead of her. Is she considered a general at this time?

What kind of training did Luke get between ESB and ROTJ? I’ve heard some say he could’ve easily visited Yoda to finish his training between the films, but it’s clear that this is his first time speaking to Yoda and Obi-Wan since the events of ESB. Maybe he did some practice and learned how to build a lightsaber, but is that all you need to be a Jedi?

Obi-Wan is pretty sure Luke has to straight up murder Darth Vader. He’s pretty upset when Luke tells him he can’t.

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LexX said:

About the title: since it was originally Revenge of the Jedi, it never was about Vader.

According to the Empire of Dreams doc, it was originally Return, but when a producer said it was a weak title, George changed it to Revenge, before deciding to change it back to Return saying “a Jedi doesn’t take revenge.” Which is true, not only in “the Jedi ways”, but in the film itself. There is no Jedi who takes revenge, but there is a Jedi who returns…

I dunno if mine is the intended meaning of the title or not, but I think my reasoning is sound, I’ve seen nothing that negates my idea & I’m yet to see a better explanation.
Luke bringing Annikin back is really what the story in this movie is about, so wouldn’t that be what the title is referring to?

I’m interested in everyone’s thoughts. What do you think the title means?

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Biggs in ANH edit idea
ROTJ opening edit idea

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ray_afraid said:

LexX said:

About the title: since it was originally Revenge of the Jedi, it never was about Vader.

According to the Empire of Dreams doc, it was originally Return, but when a producer said it was a weak title, George changed it to Revenge, before deciding to change it back to Return saying “a Jedi doesn’t take revenge.” Which is true, not only in “the Jedi ways”, but in the film itself. There is no Jedi who takes revenge, but there is a Jedi who returns…

I dunno if mine is the intended meaning of the title or not, but I think my reasoning is sound, I’ve seen nothing that negates my idea & I’m yet to see a better explanation.
Luke bringing Annikin back is really what the story in this movie is about, so wouldn’t that be what the title is referring to?

I’m interested in everyone’s thoughts. What do you think the title means?

I always thought the title referred to Luke. With Yoda and Obi-wan gone and Vader being with the dark side, Luke was the only one left and with his training completed the Jedi were now back with him being it. The title couldn’t refer to Anakin because he dies at the end. If he lived then it’d be a different story.

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Tantive3+1 said:

The title couldn’t refer to Anakin because he dies at the end.

Sure it could.
Anakin’s Return is a big deal in the film. He doesn’t just show up n’ keel over, he returns & saves the galaxy by killing the Emperor. He also Returns proving Luke right & Obi-Wan wrong.
“I can bring him back to the good side.”
Anakin’s Return is the crux of the film!

Again, not saying I’m right, but there’s nothing that makes this idea “wrong”.

Ray’s Lounge
Biggs in ANH edit idea
ROTJ opening edit idea

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I always thought the title referred to the Jedi, plural, as an entity. Luke becomes a fully fledged Jedi knight, which means the Jedi have returned. But, that said, I love Ray’s idea about Vader. A title can have multiple meanings, too.

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Return of the Jedi is the best title of the series because it has three meanings.

Luke has returned to the story as a Jedi

Anakin has returned to the light

The Jedi will return to the galaxy

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The Emperor’s guards are called “Royal Guards” and Luke calls the Emperor “your highness”, but we already knew in 1983 that he’s a politician who got the legislative body to vote absolute power to him, not someone who inherited a throne.

If Plagueis shows up in the ST, not only will I refuse to watch the movies, but I won't so much as watch the trailers, either. - DuracellEnergizer

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Tantive3+1 said:

darklordoftech said:

The Emperor’s guards are called “Royal Guards” and Luke calls the Emperor “your highness”, but we already knew in 1983 that he’s a politician who got the legislative body to vote absolute power to him, not someone who inherited a throne.

Another thing the PT got wrong.

As I said, it was already known in 1983 that Palpatine was elected to be the Republic’s head of state. In this case, the prequels were just showing what was already known.

If Plagueis shows up in the ST, not only will I refuse to watch the movies, but I won't so much as watch the trailers, either. - DuracellEnergizer

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darklordoftech said:

Tantive3+1 said:

darklordoftech said:

The Emperor’s guards are called “Royal Guards” and Luke calls the Emperor “your highness”, but we already knew in 1983 that he’s a politician who got the legislative body to vote absolute power to him, not someone who inherited a throne.

Another thing the PT got wrong.

As I said, it was already known in 1983 that Palpatine was elected to be the Republic’s head of state.

When was this stated in the films?

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SONIC RACES THROUGH THE GREEN FIELDS.
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THE WAYS OF HIS HEART ARE MUCH LIKE THE SUN. SONIC RUNS AND RESTS; THE SUN RISES AND SETS.
DON’T GIVE UP ON THE SUN. DON’T MAKE THE SUN LAUGH AT YOU.

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It’s in the ROTJ novelization. Along with the name “Palpatine”, which isn’t in the film of ROTJ either.

“That Darth Vader, man. Sure does love eating Jedi.”

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ATMachine said:

It’s in the ROTJ novelization. Along with the name “Palpatine”, which isn’t in the film of ROTJ either.

Don’t forget the ANH novelization.

If Plagueis shows up in the ST, not only will I refuse to watch the movies, but I won't so much as watch the trailers, either. - DuracellEnergizer

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I’m with Gary Kurtz in that the DSII and going back to Tatooine were too derivative to ANH. I also believe that like him the ending should’ve been bittersweet with the Rebels winning but with heavy casualties and few survivors (just like in the Battle of Yavin it didn’t have everyone making it afterwards for a happier ending).

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ATMachine said:

It’s in the ROTJ novelization. Along with the name “Palpatine”, which isn’t in the film of ROTJ either.

Sorry to say, but I don’t think the Novelizations really matter. The vast majority of audience members don’t read those. If it’s not in the film, it isn’t “known” to the audience.

Army of Darkness: The Medieval Deadit | The Terminator - Color Regrade | The Wrong Trousers - Audio Preservation
SONIC RACES THROUGH THE GREEN FIELDS.
THE SUN RACES THROUGH A BLUE SKY FILLED WITH WHITE CLOUDS.
THE WAYS OF HIS HEART ARE MUCH LIKE THE SUN. SONIC RUNS AND RESTS; THE SUN RISES AND SETS.
DON’T GIVE UP ON THE SUN. DON’T MAKE THE SUN LAUGH AT YOU.

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At the very least it would have been more like an Indy film because George could produce Steven but not try and over the shoulder direct/second guess in the manner that is continually suggested he did/tried to do with Richard Marquand.
Ironically Spielberg had just finished Poltergeist where it is strongly felt he did this with Tobe Hooper and ghost directed much of the film himself.

I’m sure Spielberg would have insisted on rewrites and the film would have been stronger because George would have felt he had to listen to him. But it also would have had a Spielberg flavor which is alien to the Star wars universe too.

Weirdest of all is that this could have been directed by David Lynch.

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