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Remember when everyone hated Return of the Jedi? — Page 3

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Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
I know what a nomad is, Tiptup. I was a bit confused as to what dessert nomads do. Do they wander around parfaits?


Heh. I didn't see the typo in your post. I remembered catching it when I first typed up my post and I thought I had fixed it but aparently I didn't. I thought it was odd that you would ask what a nomad was.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Heh, no. Just a little playful ribbing.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Could the producer have anything to do with how well each movie was done?

It has always seemed at the very least an interesting coincidence.
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At one time producers usually had the biggest single role when it came to making a given film. Then that power began to shift to directors. Producers can still be very important today, depending upon how much they are involved with a production. At the very least they can function like quality control. I suppose you have to analyze the influence of certain producers over certain films on a case by case basis.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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I just have to wonder what ROTJ, and the prequels would have been had Gary Kurtz remained the producer for the entire series.
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Originally posted by: Skyranger
I just have to wonder what ROTJ, and the prequels would have been had Gary Kurtz remained the producer for the entire series.


I would guess that Lucas had more influence on the stylistic change than did the new producers.

“What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one.”

Neil Postman, Amusing Ourselves to Death

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Originally posted by: Skyranger
Could the producer have anything to do with how well each movie was done?

It has always seemed at the very least an interesting coincidence.


Watch "An Evening with Kevin Smith", and go to the part where he talks about working with Jon Peters on a new "Superman" a few years back. I think that'll answer your questions.

http://i.imgur.com/7N84TM8.jpg

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"it was clear in Jedi that the emperor wanted Luke to join him and Vader, either that or Vader was a big dope for not realizing he was being replaced"

I always thought it was a giveaway, this scenario, it's plainly obvious what was going to happen. Vader would off Luke and eliminate the last real threat (except for Leia, hyuk hyuk) or Luke would off Vader, and he'd have a young servant that wasn't in an iron lung. Or, Vader wanted to off the Emperor and work with Luke. It seems a simple enough concept to me.
VADER: Let me look on you with my own eyes...

LUKE: Dad, where are your eyebrows?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=WO_S6UgkQk0
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Originally posted by: Neil S. Bulk
I still maintain Lucas hasn't done anything good with Star Wars starting with the release of ROTJ. Hell, I'd almost go so far as to say ESB was the real fluke and the future of Star Wars was presented to us on CBS in November 1978. Everything since that time, with the exception of Empire has been junk.
Neil

I agree fully. The Empire Strikes Back was already showing that Lucas had no real story to tell after Star Wars. I saw Return Of The Jedi at theaters on opening day and again about 14 years later. I disliked it both times. Lucas way over-thinks things and continues to provide answers to questions no one has asked. To me, the real fluke in all of this is the 1977 version of Star Wars. Look at what a mess he's made of it now that he's really put his mind to it.

Lucas got lucky with Star Wars. He capitalized on that luck with Empire Strikes Back. After that, it all went downhill fast.
originaltrilogy.com Moderator

You’re killing me, Smalls.

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Marks out of 10:
SW 10
ESB 9
ROTJ 7

TPM 1
AOTC 3
ROTS 2
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I'm super-pissed at Lucas these days, but I'm going to defend him a little with regard to Jedi. I also wish Kershner/Kurtz had done it of course, but Jedi was a much bigger story than the intimate Empire. If it had gone out of control like Empire did, it could have been in huge financial trouble, like career-damaging Coppola trouble. Empire was not universally loved and Raiders and E.T. were more successful and more well-liked. Jedi had to be cheap and HAD to have broad appeal. It's a shame but that's how it goes if you're putting 30 million dollars of your own money into something. That's 30 mil in 80s money. And you're about to have a very expensive divorce on top of that! I would crap my pants. I think it's amazing Jedi is as good as it is.
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A lot of people nowadays cite the loss of the 3 Ks as SW's downfall: Kershner & Kurtz for Jedi, Kasdan for the prequels. Kersh & Kurtz may well have made Jedi better, but there was talk at the time ('83) that Kasdan may have been part of the problem. After all, Jedi's script (Kasdan) was weaker than Empire's (Brackett & Kasdan), so, logically, Brackett was a genius and Kasdan a hack (at the time, Lucas was seen as infallible). Of course, history has shown that Lucas was probably the main culprit.
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actually, Kasdan's scripted Saved return of the Jedi from sucking big time. read the RotJ novel and you'll see what I mean. the dialogue in the scene between Luke and Leia on Endor made me want to throw the book across the room.

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I'd blame James Kahn for that.
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the line I'm referring to, "good bye dear sister, sweet sweet leia" is in the graphic novel adaption as well, proof that it was part of Lucas's original screenplay.
when I first saw the special edition, I was almost afraid that line would be added, as the other dialogue changes leaned towards the original scripts.

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Let's not forget Leigh Brackett's contribution to ESB. Being a professional writer she was probably the highest quality writer to work with the SW saga. A shame she didn't live to write ROTJ. If she did, Ewok would only exist as the sound someone makes when puking.
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Nothing Leigh Brackett wrote was used in Empire at all. She did one draft before she died. She got a credit out of respect.
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The best line in ESB was ad-libbed by Harrison Ford.

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Originally posted by: Mielr
The best line in ESB was ad-libbed by Harrison Ford.


I know.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Originally posted by: Guy Caballero
Nothing Leigh Brackett wrote was used in Empire at all. She did one draft before she died. She got a credit out of respect.


I dunno, ESB seemed too good for either Lucas or Kasdan to write, especially in comparison to ROTJ. Unless someone heads over to the Eastern New Mexico University in Portales, New Mexico and reads the draft, I guess we'll never really know who's responsible for what.
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I've also heard that Brackett's actual contribution to the movie was non-existant. She wrote a draft. It wasn't liked. She was replaced with Kasdan and credited out of respect for her work.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Originally posted by: Anchorhead
Originally posted by: Neil S. Bulk
I still maintain Lucas hasn't done anything good with Star Wars starting with the release of ROTJ. Hell, I'd almost go so far as to say ESB was the real fluke and the future of Star Wars was presented to us on CBS in November 1978. Everything since that time, with the exception of Empire has been junk.
Neil

I agree fully. The Empire Strikes Back was already showing that Lucas had no real story to tell after Star Wars. I saw Return Of The Jedi at theaters on opening day and again about 14 years later. I disliked it both times. Lucas way over-thinks things and continues to provide answers to questions no one has asked. To me, the real fluke in all of this is the 1977 version of Star Wars. Look at what a mess he's made of it now that he's really put his mind to it.


It all makes perfect sense if you consider the possibility that there never was a larger Star Wars back story to begin with. Just a draft of screenplay for ANH.
There is an (unwritten?) Hollywood rule that a succesfull movie 'must' have a sequel. When ANH was released and broke box office records around the globe, THAT was the moment where a new script had to be developed for a sequel we now know as ESB.

Besides, Lucas' admits to having serious doubts about the father-son releationship between Vader and Luke at the time of writing the screenplay for ROTJ in an official 1983 "Making Of ..." documentary I have on VHS. This exposes his version of The Making Of A Saga for what it is: a lie.

But, as always, if you repeat or re-hash your version of the story often and loud enough, everybody is going to believe it to be the truth. Even the person who made it up ...
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Originally posted by: vtpeters
It all makes perfect sense if you consider the possibility that there never was a larger Star Wars back story to begin with. Just a draft of screenplay for ANH....

You mean the one where Annikin is actually younger than Luke Skywalker and they aren't related to each other?
Yeah, it's not just a possibility. It's the truth.

Lucas had one story. He filmed it and it was successful. After that, he did what his other famous charcter once said in a movie - "I'm making this up as I go"

Weird how many times he's willing to try to sell that whole - "I had a grand idea of the story of Annikin, spanning 6 or 9 films" - BS of his.

Hey Lucas - a great many of us were there in 1977. We remember what really went on, we remember what you really said.

Man, come on September. After that, I can cut Lucas and all his BS loose forever. I'll have the one movie I want. In it's correct form.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

You’re killing me, Smalls.

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Originally posted by: JacDan
I dunno, ESB seemed too good for either Lucas or Kasdan to write, especially in comparison to ROTJ. Unless someone heads over to the Eastern New Mexico University in Portales, New Mexico and reads the draft, I guess we'll never really know who's responsible for what.


Perhaps Empire simply had a better producer and director?

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Originally posted by: Tiptup
Perhaps Empire simply had a better producer and director?


Maybe. ESB may have just had the right karma at the right time.