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Remember when everyone hated Return of the Jedi? — Page 2

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Originally posted by: Tiptup
Your other points can be valid from a certain point of view, but don't be so nonsensical as to think that Star Wars or ESB don't have any silly moments of their own. A critical, logical mind can rip those movies to shreds. That's not what's important about them.

I'm currently listening to the Star Wars radio drama. I just finished chapter 11 (out of 13). It's absolutely remarkable how the story to Star Wars holds up to the scrutiny of a 6 hour magnifying glass. It's all logical and it all makes sense.

Neil

Well at least the reversed surround channels have been addressed.

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It all fairness theres not much logic to Star Wars. I mean the four heroes run around the Death Star killing stormtroopers for god knows how long and no one notices? So much for security. The difference is that the film is a goofy swashbuckler, whereas the PT are (supposedly) more realistic "dramas", so the suspension of disbelief is much less forgiving. Plus, the downright lovable charm of Star Wars not only distracted you from such petty matters, it made you not care if you noticed.

A very telling anecdote: they are filming the scene where Han and Luke and Leia are getting out of the trash compacter and taking off their stormtrooper outfits. Hamill suddenly ponders, "hey wait a minute, this doesn't make sense, how come my hair is all neat and everything?" and Ford simply replied "Hey kid, it aint that kind of movie."

I think that sums it up nicely.

The Secret History of Star Wars -- now available on Amazon.com!

"When George went back and put new creatures into the original Star Wars, I find that disturbing. It’s a revision of history. That bothers me."

--James Cameron, Entertainment Weekly, April 2010

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BEN
Obi-wan Kenobi... Obi-wan. Now that's a name I haven't heard in a long time... a long time.

LUKE
I think my Uncle knew him. He said he was dead...

BEN
Oh, he's not dead, not yet... not yet.

LUKE
You know him!

BEN
Of course, of course I know him, he's me! I haven't gone by the name Obi-wan since before you were born.


Yeah. About five frickin' seconds before he was born, maybe.

Sheesh.

It is incredible how much the prequels ruin the OT with things like this that should really matter, but they do.
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The prequels don't ruin the OT. They can't. No matter how outlandish and bizarre the PT's take on the Star Wars universe is, the OT is still there, immutable.

Or, well ... you know what I mean.
"It's the stoned movie you don't have to be stoned for." -- Tom Shales on Star Wars
Scruffy's gonna die the way he lived.
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another thing that bothers me is how much aunt beru and uncle owen have aged. they looked just over 20 in the PT but in ANH they are at least sixty, even if only 18 years have passed. moreover owen talks about anakin as if he had really known him, and not just seen him for 5 minutes in AOTC
and obiwan ages a lot as well. you could say that maybe it's the conditions on the planet that do this but Luke has lived there all his life and he does look his age.

but to go back to the topic, i saw the trilogy first when i was in my teens and for a long time i really didn't like ESB. only wathced it as a bridge to ROTJ, which i liked best because of the uber happy ending. then the ewoks started getting on my nerves and i noticed how much more stuff there is in ESB than i noticed before, and it quickly became my new favourite. guess a lot of people go through this evolution.
for the PT, i've seen phanytom menace only once, attack twice and sith twice as well, and i'm planning to leave it this way. i've seen the clone wars cartoons, which i thought where not that badm i liked the character of the evil sith woman-alien (can'y remember name) and the sequence where anaking goes trhough a ritual and has a vision of his arm destroying everybody. really foreshadows what will happen (maybe even too explicit...) but still, the only ones i watch over and over again are those of the o-ot. watched the SE once, still trying to forget that experience...

"Last night, Darth Vader came down from planet Vulcan and told me that if I didn't take Lorraine out that he'd melt my brain."
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Originally posted by: Invader Jenny
My dad doesn't like ROTJ at all. He only owned ANH and ESB on laserdisc, but didn't want the 3rd one. I asked him why and he said something to the effect of "Burping aliens and fuzzy bears; this isn't the Star Wars I remember. Oh and Vader killed millions of people, but because he saved his son he gets to go to jedi heaven. Pfffft."

I, however, have never had a problem with it. Granted I think the burping alien is a little to juvinile for me, but I can over look it (Lucas' colors starting to come through in that one).

I saw ROTJ as a story where military strength, technology, and man power aren't always the winning factor. Sometimes the best victory comes through innocence and a willing spirit (i.e. the Ewoks). The Empire never saw it coming. That is why the Emperor couldn't foresee it. Good was clouding his vision.

And Vader getting redeamed at the end is a classic Jesus Christ teaching that I hold very dear to my heart. That no mater what you have done, and no mater who you are, you will always be loved (i.e. Luke's love parallels that of Jesus') and you are never so far into the darkside that you can't come back and be saved. No one is a "lost cause."

I cry every time Yoda dies, and have never found the dialogue in the film to be anything but wonderful. The summer of 1983 was the season I was born, and at that same moment Return of the Jedi was playing at #1 in theaters around the country. It's my personal slice of the original trilogy that I will cherish forever.

Say what you will about ROTJ, but it holds a special place in my heart.


the good thing about this is that your dad will be spared seeing Hayden's evil leer photoshoped into the ending. if he hated the original ending, that one would make him scream.

that aside, I feel that A New Hope and Empire strikes back are Pointless without the original Return of the Jedi.
the ending, with the reunions, the triumphant upbeat music, and the defining performance of Sebastian Shaw as anakin's ghost (I don't know about everybody else, but that scene made Obi-wan's words "Anakin was a good friend" and "The Good Man who was your father" perfectly Valid, much more so than what hayden was allowed to portray), is my favorate movie ending of all time.

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Yeah, I agree ,Blackjack. You need to have Jedi in there to make a complete trilogy.

BTW, in my days of ignorance, I watched Episode I almost daily at 13-14. Now I have been enlightened and hate the entire PT.
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Originally posted by: Neil S. Bulk
Originally posted by: Tiptup
Your other points can be valid from a certain point of view, but don't be so nonsensical as to think that Star Wars or ESB don't have any silly moments of their own. A critical, logical mind can rip those movies to shreds. That's not what's important about them.

I'm currently listening to the Star Wars radio drama. I just finished chapter 11 (out of 13). It's absolutely remarkable how the story to Star Wars holds up to the scrutiny of a 6 hour magnifying glass. It's all logical and it all makes sense.

Neil
I just finished listening to ANH. Great stuff.

And for the record, i don't hate ROTJ. I just think it's weaker than the first 2, and with a little more thought/work could have been excellent.

War does not make one great.

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I agree. I don't truly hate any of the movies, including the PT, but Jedi's a bit weaker than the first two, and the prequels are weaker combined than any of the original three.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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I used to not be able to stand watching ESB. I always used to think it was boring because a major part of the movie was Luke traning on a boring swamp planet. I thought ROTJ was the best because it had action and furry midgets kicking ass. But now ESB means so much more to me. It has humor, romance, suspense, and action and that makes ESB hold up against the test of time. Oh, I can't believe that I used to hate ESB.


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Heh, me either.

EDIT: As in, I can't believe you used to hate it either.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Originally posted by: Neil S. Bulk
I'm currently listening to the Star Wars radio drama. I just finished chapter 11 (out of 13). It's absolutely remarkable how the story to Star Wars holds up to the scrutiny of a 6 hour magnifying glass. It's all logical and it all makes sense.

Neil


Well, radio dramas aside, there are many far-fetched moments in the original Star Wars. Just off the top of my head:

1. Why were the Imperials so worried about wasting one measely laserblast to destroy an escape pod?
2. How can a civilization of dessert-nomad midgets make a living in a desolate desert scavenging old android parts?
3. How the hell does a light saber work? If it needs the force, then how did Luke use one right away before he's had any training? If it's technological, then why aren't there any better applications for such a devastating technology? Does a light saber ever run out of juice? Did Obiwan charge it up for Luke?
4. If the imperial troops are such deadly marksmen, then how come they can't hit anything they shoot at?
5. How did the heroes escape Mos Eisley after making such a ruckus and mess right under the empire's nose?
6. Why is such a huge space station needed to destroy a planet? They don't have the technology to construct a smaller weapon capable of the same effect?
7. Simple "smuggling compartments" would hide the heroes from every scanner in the Death Star?
8. We're to believe that no Imperial troops were left on board the falcon to ensure that it remained secure? Two measly soldiers outside the main hatch were enough to guard a ship that potentially carried stolen data very sensitive to the Empire?
9. An advanced technological culture can't put up security cameras in their Death Star? What about simple guard patrols? Wouldn't they have a better scanners for properly detecting blaster fire?
10. Are we to believe that every damn soldier on the death star was completely incompetent? They drop like flies. And doesn't the Empire have a way to monitor the status and location of individual soldiers to determine if they are wounded or dead?
11. The prison assault is ridiculous for two men and a "wookie" to have performed. And simply shooting cameras will hide what they are doing?
12. Again, the Empire is so totally incompetent that they don't know where a shaft in their station leads? They should have arrived at the garbage compacter and killed our whole lot of heroes.
13. Seriously, why can't the damn storm troopers hit anything?
14. A few Tie Fighters from a station the size of a small moon were meant to seem like a plausible attempt to stop the Millennium Falcon?
15. If Princess Lea knew it was a trap, why did she lead the Empire to straight to the heart of the rebellion?
16. The Empire would put so much work into building a giant space station but not have any turrets capable of shooting down inexpensive fighter craft?
17. Again, we have a super expensive space station, but we have it specifically designed to have a curiously volatile exhaust port? One little explosion can blow up the entire station via a chain reaction? Who freakin' overlooked a flaw like that? Even without considering attacks from enemies, simple accidents would be fatal with that thing. Its like sitting on a powder keg in a war zone.
18. Why exactly was the exhaust port so volatile? What possible technology would require such a design? It’s almost like you'd have to design it to be that way on purpose.
19. How did the rebels find this one fatal flaw in only a few hours while the Empire never even had the slightest clue as to the clear danger their exhaust port clearly was?
20. They blow up the Death Star and then in their no-longer-secret base and they have time to set up an elaborate award ceremony and stand around grinning while star cruisers might be heading straight for them?

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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I was inspired by this thread to watch ROTJ again. In-between viewings I tend to forget how great it really is. The space fights are better than in any other space opera or sci-fi movie. I love how the movie is full of twists and turns and I adore Han Solo's dialogue.
I have a difficulty ranking the movies in the original trilogy against eachother. The original movies are so much greater than the prequels that the difference in quality between the old ones becomes minisqule in comparison.

I can agree that the ewoks are maybe too cute, but I choose to see them as ruthless savages
(like the Zulu tribe of the GFFA) and that works for me.

TipTup: I can challenge most of your points, but that is for another thread.
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Tiptup that was the most hilarious list of plot holes I've read! And the answer for each one of those, given by George Lucas, is: "The Force. Or magic. Mostly magic."
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
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Tiptup, regarding number 3 on your list, lightsabers and how they work was explained in the OT Visual Dictionary. They use 2 crystals to control plasma and force it into a controled rod state. All they are is controlled plasma. The Visual Dictionary also said that when building a lightsaber if the crystals are not properly placed inside the handle the plasma energy will become unstable upon activation, and blow up and disintegrate the jedi who was building it. You have to be force sensitive to build one, because the force guides them and tells them where to place the crystals. It does not matter who uses it.


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I thought most of your points were funny, but I do have to address a few of them.

1: What are dessert nomads?
2: How can there be no cameras on the Death Star if you claim that shooting out the cameras is not enough to prevent the Empire from knowing they're rescuing the princess.
3: I love that point about Leia taking the Empire back to her hideout. There was actually a flash movie posted here a while ago that made fun of that, if the person who posted it is reading and knows where it is... Then, instead of orbiting the planet, the Death Star just blows it up and mows right on through. Fun stuff.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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I have never hated Jedi since I saw it in its first run in 83 and the only SW film Ive only ever really had hate for at one time or another is TPM though appreciate it slightly more nowadays, and when I was growing up everyone I seemed to know seemed to like though probably not as much as the original Star Wars film or TheEmpire Strikes Back it does I feel a half decent job of finishing the saga/trilogy though the story could have been collapsed better maybe and the Ewoks were the start of a certain cuteness into the series.
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I didn't hate Jedi, but I was mildly disappointed. I'd read the novelization beforehand, and expected it to be a little more lively. I've grown to appreciate it now, though.

Princess Leia: I happen to like nice men.
Han Solo: I'm a nice man.

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If there's one thing I remember about 1983 as if it happened yesterday is asking myself one question 20 minutes into ROTJ: What the hell happened?

Over the years though I've softened towards ROTJ somewhat. It's better than the prequels, has the original cast, but still sucks when compared to SW and ESB.
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I never hated jedi in fact I loved and still love it as my favorite of the trilogy. Even though empire and jedi are both considered better made films, I still think marquand did a very good job with what he was given.

Plus I think some of you guys out there take star wars way too seriously, I mean lucas meant the films to be fun and entertaining but they are not religious writ, or philosopher's discurtions on life. after all they were made as kids movies, saturday afternoon serials. Maybe a lot of you out there have grown up since you saw them and some of the stuff no longer fits. There is a lot more sci-fi/ fantasy out there that is written for adults and even caters to the more cerebral adult mind, just don't expect to find it in star wars.

That being said I do know that Jedi is a barely desguised re-make of the first star wars just like last crusade was a remake of raiders.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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I don't think anyone's saying what we're saying because we take it too seriously or are expecting a huge cerebral challenge. We're simply comparing it to its brethren in terms of quality.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Originally posted by: Obiwampa
Remember that? The Ewoks? The banal dialog between Luke and Leia?, ("But why must you confront him?!"), The musical number in Jabba's palace? The musical number in the Ewok village? Muppets. Muppets everywhere. (A plethora of puppets, if you will.) Vader unmasked? ANOTHER Death Star?! I find it amusing that everyone now considers ROTJ to be an equal member of the original-original trilogy, and a 'classic'. I just seem to remember a time, hmmmm, when was it? A time when ROTJ was considered the worst of all the SW films...hmmmm, when was that, AHA! Before Episode I!!!!!!!

I never hated it. I saw it in 1983 and was totally blown away by it. Empire will always be my favorite, but it doesn't mean I love Jedi any less. I really don't remember anyone criticizing the Ewoks back in '83- all of that talk seemed to come years later.

However, I DETEST the SE of Jedi. The new musical number, the removal of the Ewok song, the addition of "Young Anakin" to the DVD finale....blech!!!

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Originally posted by: Marvolo
Tiptup, regarding number 3 on your list, lightsabers and how they work was explained in the OT Visual Dictionary. They use 2 crystals to control plasma and force it into a controled rod state. All they are is controlled plasma. The Visual Dictionary also said that when building a lightsaber if the crystals are not properly placed inside the handle the plasma energy will become unstable upon activation, and blow up and disintegrate the jedi who was building it. You have to be force sensitive to build one, because the force guides them and tells them where to place the crystals. It does not matter who uses it.

Well, I'm sure certain skilled nerds have devised a technical description that works well enough for a sci-fi drama. Needing the force to construct a lightsaber would limit the technological aplications in the Star Wars universe. So, works for me. My only remaining question would be what kind of plasma is used to provide such devastating effects.

Oh, and I love how crystals solve so many problems in science fiction.


Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
I thought most of your points were funny, but I do have to address a few of them.

1: What are dessert nomads?
2: How can there be no cameras on the Death Star if you claim that shooting out the cameras is not enough to prevent the Empire from knowing they're rescuing the princess.
3: I love that point about Leia taking the Empire back to her hideout. There was actually a flash movie posted here a while ago that made fun of that, if the person who posted it is reading and knows where it is... Then, instead of orbiting the planet, the Death Star just blows it up and mows right on through. Fun stuff.


1. That would be people that don't have a fixed home, but instead carry their home around with them. Of course, I don't know for sure if the Jawas in Sandcrawler used it as a home or just a work vehicle.
2. You're right there. I was coming up with those points fast and didn't think through them all in detail. I thought of going back to the earlier point when I reached the detetion-area scene in my mind, but that scene still didn't explain why no other sections in the Death Star used security cameras so I left it.
3. I'd love to see that actually.

Oh, and I thought of another point from Star Wars that makes no sense to me:

In Mos Eisley, when the violent, tyranical, and supposedly discourteous Imperial Stormtroopers are searching door to door, why did they decide to skip any door that was locked?! Oh, yeah, because nobody would think to hide something secret behind a locked door!

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Originally posted by: Blackjack
Originally posted by: Invader Jenny
My dad doesn't like ROTJ at all. He only owned ANH and ESB on laserdisc, but didn't want the 3rd one. I asked him why and he said something to the effect of "Burping aliens and fuzzy bears; this isn't the Star Wars I remember. Oh and Vader killed millions of people, but because he saved his son he gets to go to jedi heaven. Pfffft."

I, however, have never had a problem with it. Granted I think the burping alien is a little to juvinile for me, but I can over look it (Lucas' colors starting to come through in that one).

I saw ROTJ as a story where military strength, technology, and man power aren't always the winning factor. Sometimes the best victory comes through innocence and a willing spirit (i.e. the Ewoks). The Empire never saw it coming. That is why the Emperor couldn't foresee it. Good was clouding his vision.

And Vader getting redeamed at the end is a classic Jesus Christ teaching that I hold very dear to my heart. That no mater what you have done, and no mater who you are, you will always be loved (i.e. Luke's love parallels that of Jesus') and you are never so far into the darkside that you can't come back and be saved. No one is a "lost cause."

I cry every time Yoda dies, and have never found the dialogue in the film to be anything but wonderful. The summer of 1983 was the season I was born, and at that same moment Return of the Jedi was playing at #1 in theaters around the country. It's my personal slice of the original trilogy that I will cherish forever.

Say what you will about ROTJ, but it holds a special place in my heart.


the good thing about this is that your dad will be spared seeing Hayden's evil leer photoshoped into the ending. if he hated the original ending, that one would make him scream.

that aside, I feel that A New Hope and Empire strikes back are Pointless without the original Return of the Jedi.
the ending, with the reunions, the triumphant upbeat music, and the defining performance of Sebastian Shaw as anakin's ghost (I don't know about everybody else, but that scene made Obi-wan's words "Anakin was a good friend" and "The Good Man who was your father" perfectly Valid, much more so than what hayden was allowed to portray), is my favorate movie ending of all time.


absolutely agreed, on both quotes. I still have some nostalgic love for all the movies no matter what... Objectively however, rotj is the weakest of the originals, but still provides that essential conclusion to the story left dangling wide open after esb. anh is the only one that could stand on its own storywise without the rest imo.

I watch it now and am still blown way out of my chair by the conclusion with the emperor/luke/vader. it's perfect. Probably the best single moment of all star wars films rivalling esb's climactic duel and revelation. If only the rest of the film was up there in quality. the actors all continue to play their roles well enough for me and the whole sense of commradre and organic emotion impact on these people is all there unlike the newer films. Jabba's palace is a joke, one big poo doo of a joke, but as a guy I'm entertained by my lovely slave leia... hey hey.. so I can stand all the stupid comedy crap that happens there.

ewoks... Now here's a reversal. some here say the pt makes you appreciate rotj more. well that's definitely true for me except for the ewoks. the wookie battle in rots makes me wish these fuzzy cute bear things were replaced with wookies somehow. It's just... ok it's not too farfetched to believe the ewoks won the first skirmish with the troops because they caught them off guard, but these are the emp's best troops, legions of them in fact. Let's get real... these guys defeated jedi with ease...

c'mon

anyway, rotj's an enjoyable sequel that could have been better, yeah. I never hated it though. I even still have my fav carrie fischer poster from the film hanging above my desk... ah.. yeah it's the golden bikini poster.
He big in nothing important in good elephant.

"Miss you, I will, Original Trilogy..."

"Your midichlorians are weak, Old man." -Darth Vader 2007 super deluxe extra special dipped in chocolate sauce edition.

http://prequelsstink.ytmnd.com/
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Originally posted by: Tiptup
1. That would be people that don't have a fixed home, but instead carry their home around with them. Of course, I don't know for sure if the Jawas in Sandcrawler used it as a home or just a work vehicle.

In Mos Eisley, when the violent, tyranical, and supposedly discourteous Imperial Stormtroopers are searching door to door, why did they decide to skip any door that was locked?! Oh, yeah, because nobody would think to hide something secret behind a locked door!


I know what a nomad is, Tiptup. I was a bit confused as to what dessert nomads do. Do they wander around parfaits?

And, yeah, that door thing always puzzled me. They busted open the similar-looking door of the Tantive IV, so why couldn't they start busting down doors here? It is an Empire after all!

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.