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Remember when everyone hated Return of the Jedi?

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Remember that? The Ewoks? The banal dialog between Luke and Leia?, ("But why must you confront him?!"), The musical number in Jabba's palace? The musical number in the Ewok village? Muppets. Muppets everywhere. (A plethora of puppets, if you will.) Vader unmasked? ANOTHER Death Star?! I find it amusing that everyone now considers ROTJ to be an equal member of the original-original trilogy, and a 'classic'. I just seem to remember a time, hmmmm, when was it? A time when ROTJ was considered the worst of all the SW films...hmmmm, when was that, AHA! Before Episode I!!!!!!!
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I think a lot of that has to do with the perspective provided by the PT. When it was just the OT, ROTJ was the hated one, but with the contrast of the PT it is changed to being more similar to ANH and ESB than any of the first three episodes.

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There's a lot of people, myself included, who still see ROTJ as inferior to it's 2 predecessors. The stuff with Luke, Vader and the Emperor is good, but it was definitely starting to go pear-shaped by the 3rd movie. It just wasn't as noticable as in the Prequels, which sucked AND blowed at the same time.

War does not make one great.

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The prequels had the pleasant side effect of making me appreciate '83 Jedi more. The emperor is now a more interesting character, the Luke/Leia brother sister thing has a little bit of emotional value now. The simple forest of Endor is now kind of a relief after all the fakey bluescreen worlds. Those nerf muppets are better (and take up a lot less screen time) than all the liquidy cartoon cg creatures. There's an actual sense of adventure and fun in Jedi that the new ones don't have. So, my surly grunge 90s self can fuck off. Jedi rules!
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I've always liked Jedi. In my mind there aren't any bad scenes in that movie. And, quite a few good ones.

Maybe it just seems like people have changed their minds because so many people who liked RotJ hated the PT and have now come to live among you?

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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I was just a kid when Jedi came out in 83, and I just loved it. Went to se it 17 times in a row.How sad was that It was my fave film back then.

As I got older though, like most people, Empire became my favourite, which is funny coz Empire was my least fave when Jedi came out.

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My dad doesn't like ROTJ at all. He only owned ANH and ESB on laserdisc, but didn't want the 3rd one. I asked him why and he said something to the effect of "Burping aliens and fuzzy bears; this isn't the Star Wars I remember. Oh and Vader killed millions of people, but because he saved his son he gets to go to jedi heaven. Pfffft."

I, however, have never had a problem with it. Granted I think the burping alien is a little to juvinile for me, but I can over look it (Lucas' colors starting to come through in that one).

I saw ROTJ as a story where military strength, technology, and man power aren't always the winning factor. Sometimes the best victory comes through innocence and a willing spirit (i.e. the Ewoks). The Empire never saw it coming. That is why the Emperor couldn't foresee it. Good was clouding his vision.

And Vader getting redeamed at the end is a classic Jesus Christ teaching that I hold very dear to my heart. That no mater what you have done, and no mater who you are, you will always be loved (i.e. Luke's love parallels that of Jesus') and you are never so far into the darkside that you can't come back and be saved. No one is a "lost cause."

I cry every time Yoda dies, and have never found the dialogue in the film to be anything but wonderful. The summer of 1983 was the season I was born, and at that same moment Return of the Jedi was playing at #1 in theaters around the country. It's my personal slice of the original trilogy that I will cherish forever.

Say what you will about ROTJ, but it holds a special place in my heart.
"I am altering the movies. Pray I don't alter them any further." -Darth Lucas
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Originally posted by: Yoda Is Your Father
There's a lot of people, myself included, who still see ROTJ as inferior to it's 2 predecessors. The stuff with Luke, Vader and the Emperor is good, but it was definitely starting to go pear-shaped by the 3rd movie. It just wasn't as noticable as in the Prequels, which sucked AND blowed at the same time.


Exactly!

Even 10 years ago, I thought ROTJ was the worst of the OT, and it is the only one I didn't see in the theaters in 1997. But as a trilogy, with two classics, I still can watch this just as much cause I care about Luke, Leia, and Han and the movie gives me a sense of closure on a great trilogy. But there is two ways of looking at ROTJ:

1. As just a sequel to a classic original, it is a very good movie, not great, but not in the league of shitsville as Rocky V, Jaws 3-D, Superman III-IV, and Jurassic Park III. Those movies truly suck, and when compared to them, it is an enjoyable sequel.

2. When compared to SW & ESB, it is totally inferior, and now looked upon as the weak link of the trilogy that defied the odds with the first sequel being as great as the first classic original.

What the Prequels did to ROTJ for me was open up that it could have been alot worse. The one thing ROTJ gets right is the Vader/Emperor/Luke scenes in the last half hour. Those scenes are just as good as anything from SW & ESB, and really are the glue that hold this movie together.

Now look at the Prequels, and how Lucas dropped the ball on major scenes in each movie: An annoying Jar Jar rumbles his way for 2 hours of TPM to ruin every scene. A 10 year old boy who story is so uncompelling, and now the movie is looked upon as an EU novel. The reason for AOTC is to show Padme/Anakin fall in love, does anyone, even PT gushers think these scenes were well done? And finally in ROTS, The turn scene in which we all waited for is so fast and so illogical, and makes Anakin look like one big dummy cause of one 5 minute sidebar story Palpatine tells him. And then Padme losing the will to live.......

Lucas dropped the ball on BIG scenes in the PT, and that is why it is so jarring when watching them. ROTJ atleast gets the big scenes right. And even thought the Death Star is recycled, it is still a great space battle and you do root for Lando to come out alive. Just think of Hayden Christenson trying to blow up the death star, I would have rooted for the Empire!
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You know what? I actually bought into the whole Death Star II thing hook, line, and sinker until about 6 months ago. I just never really thought about it until I started looking outside the box.

"Build another one!? Oh yeah, that's original. Who's gonna give me a loan? You?"

I saw it more as a giant battle ship or something. You don't just make one USS Blowshitup. The first one was flawed. So they go back to the drawing board and try again.
"We can rebuild it. Faster. Stronger."
If they had just waited until the damn thing was complete before engaging the Rebel fleet (way-to-go Emperor) that thing would have been a bitch to blow up. But since they left ONE WHOLE SIDE OF THE STATION OPEN it was much easier to destroy.

It may not be the most original thing in the world, but it's less of a rehash than I've seen in other films.
"I am altering the movies. Pray I don't alter them any further." -Darth Lucas
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ROTJ may not be the best of the trilogy, though I never considered it the worst of the trilogy. I love all three movies, and could probably never pick a favorite or least favorite. I think that ROTJ has some phenomenal scenes in it, like the final scenes with the emporer and Darth Vader and Luke, and the death of Yoda. I also think that the Ewoks are an important part of the story. They show that you don't need firepower to bring down an army. All you need is the will to do it. This theme parallels itself within the storyline of Luke and Vader. Luke couldn't defeat Vader or the Emperor, but he had the will to turn Vader good again.
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Remember when people hated it? I still hate it! It signifies the exact turning point for Lucas. Anything he had a hand in after this (especially anything Star Wars related) has been a total waste of time. Ewok moives? Droid cartoons? The SE's? The prequels? All garbage. And it's all Jedi's fault. It ruined everything.

It's a lazy, stupid movie. All of the stuff on Tatooine in the beginning is pointless. Yes, it gets Han back so that he can stand around and do nothing for the rest of the film (except lazily be the solution to the love triangle) but that's it. It has no bearing on the rest of the film. Isn't Jabba's place filled with shady individuals? Wouldn't it make sense that maybe one of them knew something about a new Death Star? Couldn't that set up the rest of the movie instead of being just a pointless prologue?

Why does the deflector shield have to be dropped on the Death Star so that the shuttle can land on Endor? There's no shield around Endor. And if all it takes to have the Death Star lower the shield is a stolen ship piloted by rebels, then why isn't the entire rebel fleet five minutes behind the Tydirium preparing a sneak attack?

And once the rebels can land on the moon in their stolen shuttle, why don't they keep up the cover of supplying parts and a technical crew and land at that shield generator? Or maybe they could use that ship to blow up the shield generator.

The Emperor is a cackling buffoon. The galaxies biggest threat is....a Saturday morning cartoon character. Darth Vader is a subordinate to this clown? Somehow that doesn't add up based on the earlier two movies.

On top of all this, it's a really poorly made movie, with the pace of a dead snail. This is where Star Wars films started getting filled with superfluous material. Whereas Star Wars and Empire would cut into the middle of scenes, showing us the relevant information, Jedi starts the practice of characters slowly walking into rooms, wasting time before characters speak. It's a trend that would only get worse in the series.

Jedi ruined everything and foreshadows everything that was to come out of Lucas and the Star Wars series.

If you want to read more reasons why people hate this movie, go here.

Neil

Well at least the reversed surround channels have been addressed.

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Originally posted by: Neil S. Bulk
Ewok moives? Droid cartoons? The SE's? The prequels? All garbage. And it's all Jedi's fault. It ruined everything.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. You just simmer down there mister. You can't blame Jedi for the shit that came after it. You might as well blame ESB for producing the Yoda the flying squirrel character of the PT because the first appearence of Yoda was in Empire Strikes Back.
Yes, it gets Han back so that he can stand around and do nothing for the rest of the film.
I will admit that most of Han's Character development happned during ESB, but at least he didn't back peddle.
Isn't Jabba's place filled with shady individuals? Wouldn't it make sense that maybe one of them knew something about a new Death Star?

And shaddy characters don't = emperial spies. I don't think that the Bloods and Crypts know much about the strategies of Middle Eastern affairs or when they will strike us next.
Why does the deflector shield have to be dropped on the Death Star so that the shuttle can land on Endor?

The Rebel fleet 5 minutes behind the Shuttle? Hell that shield would have been down and then up again in 5 seconds. To even get near the bunker the shield would have to come down. It may not have a planetary radius, but it's no pin-point either.
The Emperor is a cackling buffoon.

The emperor a buffoon? Maybe not the most brilliant military strategist, but I sure as hell wouldn't want to be at his darkside mercy.

ROTJ may not be as fantastic as ESB, but it sure as hell isn't a bad movie. It even has some of the most powerful music in the whole movie.
"I am altering the movies. Pray I don't alter them any further." -Darth Lucas
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Originally posted by: Invader Jenny
It even has some of the most powerful music in the whole movie.

The music is about the only good thing in the movie, and even then, some sections are straight re-hashes of superior Star Wars music.

And I still maintain Lucas hasn't done anything good with Star Wars starting with the release of ROTJ. Hell, I'd almost go so far as to say ESB was the real fluke and the future of Star Wars was presented to us on CBS in November 1978. Everything since that time, with the exception of Empire has been junk.

Neil

Well at least the reversed surround channels have been addressed.

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Wow. Well to each his own I guess. I still like it.
"I am altering the movies. Pray I don't alter them any further." -Darth Lucas
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I guess I would look at the OT this way, I still enjoy ROTJ cause it finishes the story.

Star Wars is a classic, and if was still a standalone movie with zero sequels, I would still love it just as much. ESB is a rare instance where a sequel is as good as the original. There are many good sequels in movie series, but ESB is the greatest sequel ever, and that defined the Star Wars saga. Because ESB is so good, ROTJ gets a pass in some ways for me, because I have to finish the story, and i still really enjoy it. I don't love it, but I really like it as closes to the trilogy. For me personally, ROTJ does give closure for me in a positive way, so I will give my props to it for that reason.

Now lets say ESB was not as good as Star Wars, and it was an average sequel, but not the classic it is now. Then I probably wouldn't watch ROTJ, and in a sense I would just be a Star Wars '77 fan. It would be equivalent to me being a Jurassic Park fan, and thinking the sequels are inferior. It would be equivalent to me being a Matrix fan, and thinking the sequels are inferior.

I can always watch SW '77 and enjoy it, but ESB & ROTJ go together to complete the trilogy, even though ESB is light years better. I think many fans who say they don't love the PT, but still watch them now, are an extention of what I do with ROTJ. They are still watching movies that are inferior to its predecessors, but out of obligation to the story, feel the need to still watch all of them. In a sense the smartest thing Lucas did was using the number system, cause it is psychological mechanism that many feel they are not watching all the story. I know one friend who thinks TPM is awful, but feels he has to watch it because it is part of the story now.

Now was ESB a fluke? That is a great question, and sometimes I start to believe it. Think about it, since Raiders of the Lost Ark in 1981, what great movie has Lucas really been attached to? In that respect, he is way overrated.
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Originally posted by: Neil S. Bulk
Originally posted by: Invader Jenny
It even has some of the most powerful music in the whole movie.

The music is about the only good thing in the movie, and even then, some sections are straight re-hashes of superior Star Wars music.



That is my exact opinion on the prequels. The only good thing about them was the music, and even then, only when it was rehashed from the OT.

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Jedi is a good movie. If you take out the stuff on Endor, it becomes a great movie. Still, it was my least favorite of the originals, though I still enjoyed it.

I'll the give the prequels credit for one thing and one thing alone...they are SO BAD that they actually make Return of the Jedi a VASTLY superior film in comparison. Jedi was not, and is not perfect. But, the one thing it isn't is the shameful, shit stinkin' mess that the PT turned out to be.

Fifty or one hundred years from now, when people talk about Star Wars, they'll be talking about the ORIGINAL Star Wars films. Hell, it's like that now. Except as a punchline, when do you even hear the prequels mentioned? Nobody cares, and LOTS fewer people saw them than saw the original trilogy. Think about that. It made whatever dollars it made, but movie tickets are what...about three or four times the price that they were in 1977. That adds up to millions less people who even bothered with the prequels.
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Originally posted by: CO In a sense the smartest thing Lucas did was using the number system, cause it is psychological mechanism that many feel they are not watching all the story. I know one friend who thinks TPM is awful, but feels he has to watch it because it is part of the story now.


I would say I use your friend’s logic for ROTJ and the PT. I can ignore most ridiculous EU (say the Droids Cartoons or SOTME) because they are not part of the filmology of the GFFA.

I always gave Jedi equal treatment (meaning 350 + viewings about the same as ESB and ANH) even though I thought it merited fewer viewings.

In the same manor I keep watching the PT. Part of it is masochism, part of it is wanting to give the Star Wars of my issues generation equal treatment and part of it is me trying to convince myself that they aren’t that bad. For what they are I guess they aren’t. Compared with other typical popcorn movies (ID4, Godzilla aka GINO, the Matrix Sequels, et al) the Prequel Trilogy isn’t all that bad. It only starts to pale when you compare it to other classic tales that were brought to the silver screen at the same time. I know LOTR purists have issues with the Two Towers, but all in all the LOTR movies do a better job of conveying the spirit of the book than the PT does conveying the spirit of the OT. The Spiderman and X-Men movies also conveyed the message of the originals in a fashion that didn’t insult long-time fans.

Just a little effort by George could’ve helped the PT and ROTJ quite a bit. Perhaps if George had watched ANH and ESB just once before writing Jedi and the PT we would have decent continuity in the entire saga.



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Originally posted by: Darth-Adroit
Perhaps if George had watched ANH and ESB just once before writing Jedi and the PT we would have decent continuity in the entire saga.

That's right. With the exception of the "two Sith rule" established in TPM (it was clear in Jedi that the emperor wanted Luke to join him and Vader, either that or Vader was a big dope for not realizing he was being replaced) the prequels match up perfectly with the continuity of Jedi. Less so with Empire and even less with Star Wars.

This reminds me of a list of alternate parody titles my friend Danielle mostly came up with last year. Allow me to repeat it here:

The Phantom Screenplay
Attack of the Crud
Revenge of the Shit
A Good Movie
Lightning Strikes Twice
Return of the Prequels


Neil

Well at least the reversed surround channels have been addressed.

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Originally posted by: Neil S. Bulk
Originally posted by: Darth-Adroit
Perhaps if George had watched ANH and ESB just once before writing Jedi and the PT we would have decent continuity in the entire saga.

That's right. With the exception of the "two Sith rule" established in TPM (it was clear in Jedi that the emperor wanted Luke to join him and Vader, either that or Vader was a big dope for not realizing he was being replaced) the prequels match up perfectly with the continuity of Jedi. Less so with Empire and even less with Star Wars.


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CO response:

I actually think when watched 1-6, the PT really makes ROTJ worse, cause now you see all the plot holes that were established in ROTJ. If just watched 4-6, I can enjoy the OT story, sure Luke/Leia was made up last minute, but the OT is so general, you can't prove anything when crying plot hole, and in the end, the story does work for me as a trilogy.

With the PT, major lines in ROTJ are ruined and you begin to realize that Lucas couldn't connect the trilogies:

"You don't know the power of the darkside, I must obey my master." I always thought this was a powerful line from ROTJ when spoken by Vader to Luke. After the PT, what does it mean? Why must he obey his master?

"Obiwan once thought as you did." Another line that means nothing in the PT. Obiwan went to Mustafar to kill Anakin, not redeem him, it was Padme who tried to bring him back. Remember when Padme asks Kenobi, "You're going to kill him aren't you?" And he doesn't answer. Sorry, Vader, Obiwan never thought that way.

"Leia, do you remember your mother, your real mother?" Leia responds, "Just a bit, through memories, images, she died while I was very young, she was beautiful, but sad." Leia, you got all that in the 5 seconds your mother was alive? That whole scene is now a plothole cause of the PT.

Three huge scenes ruined when watching it 1-6, that is why ROTJ gets butchered after the PT, and that is a shame.

And don't get me started on Hayden as a force ghost, or the new MTV song in Jabbas Palace, they are pure shit changes, that have made me not even recognize the SE because of those two changes.

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Jedi was the only original that I got to see in theaters and that is a very cherished memory. I still remember coming home and talking about it for days. Sure Jedi lacks the most out of the 3 films (there is only 3 right?) but because of that memory alone I can't diss it. I just watched it the other day on LD with my 8year old son and seeing the look on his face reminded me of that feeling. Complete awe!
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I always watch the trilogy, being as relatively young as I am (i.e., not existing at a time when there were less than three), I've never watched one without watching the other two. But my excitement builds for ESB and then drops some for ROTJ. That's the way it's always been, even when I was nine, ROTJ just didn't capture my imagination as well as the other two. But I still enjoy it. Neil brings up some good points that I never thought about it. And to Jenny, since you brought it up, I think it would have been cool if Han had "back-peddled" in his character development. At least it would have given him something to do. It certainly would have thrown a monkey wrench into the works if Han suddenly stopped caring about being a Rebel and abandoned all their asses. "I'll just take my general's medallion and pawn it! My hyperdrive will always work!" Maybe he would have come back eventually, or something like that.

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Originally posted by: Neil S. Bulk
And I still maintain Lucas hasn't done anything good with Star Wars starting with the release of ROTJ. Hell, I'd almost go so far as to say ESB was the real fluke and the future of Star Wars was presented to us on CBS in November 1978. Everything since that time, with the exception of Empire has been junk.

Neil
You know, I don't think that statement is actually too far from the truth.

War does not make one great.

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First off, let me stress by saying that I've seen every film the year they were released. I was 8 years old in '77 and old enough to recall it was the most awesome experience I had ever had watching a movie at that point. It captivated me like no other movie had, enough to the point that I wanted to see it again which back in the day rarely anyone did, especially not to the extent SW fans did.

When I saw ROTJ, I enjoyed it but I really didn't care much for the Ewoks. I still don't. There are parts of the movie that are totally amazing and other parts that I still dread to this day, but I'm not the type of fan that's going to up ROTJ just because of the PT. In fact, I'm a fan of the prequels. A big huge fan. I enjoyed them despite some misgivings here and there.

And you know it's because I'm an adult that I see things I didn't see as a kid. And I see them in both trilogies and I'm glad I'm the type of fan that can enjoy them all. It's not the films that tarnished my experience, it's growing up that did.
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Originally posted by: Neil S. Bulk
The Emperor is a cackling buffoon. The galaxies biggest threat is....a Saturday morning cartoon character. Darth Vader is a subordinate to this clown? Somehow that doesn't add up based on the earlier two movies.


This is the only point I will concede to you from your post. The emperor was a bit silly. He looked really cool and twisted, but the acting job sucked. I liked the creepier emperor we saw in that brief snippet from ESB. Still, the performance works as an antagonist for the film and displays the "overconfidence" factor well.

Your other points can be valid from a certain point of view, but don't be so nonsensical as to think that Star Wars or ESB don't have any silly moments of their own. A critical, logical mind can rip those movies to shreds. That's not what's important about them.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005