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Religion — Page 83

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I’m just telling you what I know, what I believe, and what hypotheses I’ve arrived at.

But from a debate standpoint, neither side is winnable because there is no scientific or empirical data on which to draw. You either believe testimony or you don’t. Being mad at God about Hell, or claiming Hell or God doesn’t exist because you don’t understand it, changes nothing.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.

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I’m not debating about what you believe or the way you understand some Biblical concepts. I’m just saying that (AFAIK) Jesus didn’t say a word about “Hell”, despite your previous post. He mentioned Gehenna, which can probably be understood in a different way than “hell as an eternal life of suffering”.

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Gehenna is a foreign word that referenced a place near Jerusalem where trash was burned. It was supposedly constantly smoldering and was full of rot, vermin, and maggots. It is translated as hell in English. He does refer to the unsaved being punished with eternal fire and torment; those are his exact words.

The Person in Question

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moviefreakedmind said:

He does refer to the unsaved being punished with eternal fire and torment; those are his exact words.

Exact words ? Citation needed.

According to Jesus’ exact words, Gehenna is the place where soul and body are kept far from God and/or are litteraly DESTROYED (so it is the opposite of “Eternal torment”) by an unquenchable fire. So the fire is unextinguishable, OK. But that doesn’t mean that unsaved suffer eternally in this fire, just that they are destroyed in this fire.

[Matthew 10:28]

…rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna."

[Matthew 5:29]

…it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to be thrown into Gehenna.

[Matthew 5:22]

…whoever shall say, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into Gehenna.

[Mark 9:43]

…It is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into Gehenna into the unquenchable fire.

Some Christians think that Gehenna/Hell is a place of Eternal torment (https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/gehenna/, https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_168.cfm).

Some Christians think that it is just a place where unsaved remain separated from God for all of Eternity (https://www.gotquestions.org/Gehenna.html).

Some Christians think that Jesus never associated Gehenna with torment (https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2011252).

It is so much a question of socio-historical context, of translation, of Christian tendency, of literary interpretation, and of personal interpretation, that it seems to me difficult to just pretend that “Jesus said that”.
I respect your faith and your interpretation, but it is not correct to say that those are the exact words of Jesus.

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I said “eternal fire” and “torment” are his descriptions of hell. Exact words are different depending on the translation, but I don’t see any reason to not believe that hell is eternal. Revelation says that the people who take the mark of the beast will be tortured forever in the presence of Jesus Christ (which paints a pretty demented picture of the Prince of Peace if you ask me). In the English language, which I guarantee is what Chyron reads, the Bible clearly and obviously depicts hell as a torturous place of eternal punishment where the wicked have no rest day or night and the smoke of their torment ascendeth forever and ever. Jesus Christ’s parable of Lazarus and the rich man also depicts hell as a place of eternal torment. I think that the desire of some christians to turn hell into a mere separation from God, or some kind of eternal “time-out”, is really telling of how uncomfortable so many people are with worshiping a God who would do such things to what are essentially his children (given that the Bible says God makes everybody in his image).

The Person in Question

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Hell works fine with pluralism, it just doesn’t work well with pluralism and theological rigidity at the same time.

Lemme 'splain. Back in the old days (meaning the Stone Age), pretty much every valley had their own unique belief system, and their own god or gods. Eventually people could travel further for trade, agrarian societies became large, and something needed to be done about these disparate religions that were encountered through alliances, mergers, and conquests.

The Greeks formed a pantheon, a family of gods, polytheism based roughly on their alliances and mergers, but also a pantheon of the defeated (the Titans, etc) for their conquests. Similarly, the Hindus did a “multiple aspects of the same god” pantheon, which could be polytheistic or monotheistic depending on how you looked at it. Other groups incorporated the gods of other cultures into their pantheon, but mostly as demons, not gods. So that’s how you get Satan, Beelzebub, Mephistopheles, etc. Our valley worships the real god, all the other valleys worship demons, was basically how it went, and today’s “all other religions go to Hell” belief is pretty much a straight line from there.

Theoretically, Christians could simultaneously maintain their belief in Hell and choose not condemn other religions to Hell if they followed the “multiple aspects of the same god” example, and in fact that does seem to be a feature of some more modern conglomerate religions like Sikhism, Baha’i, and Unitarian Universalism. You also see this concept in statements that refer to Christians, Muslims and Jews as “people of the Book” or some such thing. Not saying many would, but there is a path out of Gehenna that does not involve rejecting Christianity at all.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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Christ used common, every day, things in order to illustrate theological concepts in the parables He told. Matt 13:44 and following “The kingdom of heaven is like a treasure hidden in a field…” This does not mean He was saying the heaven was or is a treasure in a field or that using the word ‘Gehenna’ means that hell is a garbage dump; rather these terms were used to help His listeners grasp the concept of His teachings and their ramifications.

Luke 16 beginning in verse 19 provides a better picture of what Christ was referring to when He spoke about hell.

Whilst we are on the subject of hell, I believe it exists; how it functions, I could not say but I would guess it would somewhat resemble the local Polish Visa office on any given day at about 13:00.

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moviefreakedmind said:

Revelation says that the people who take the mark of the beast will be tortured forever in the presence of Jesus Christ (which paints a pretty demented picture of the Prince of Peace if you ask me). In the English language, which I guarantee is what Chyron reads, the Bible clearly and obviously depicts hell as a torturous place of eternal punishment where the wicked have no rest day or night and the smoke of their torment ascendeth forever and ever.

I agree about Revelation, the Bible, the Old Testament and the Acts of the Apostles.
But not the Gospels. AFAIK, Jesus himself never said that Gehenna is a place of Eternal Torment for unsaved people.

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one69chev said:

Whilst we are on the subject of hell, I believe it exists; how it functions, I could not say but I would guess it would somewhat resemble the local Polish Visa office on any given day at about 13:00.

lol

Or it would somewhat ressemble to the “Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread” a few weeks ago…

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IIRC, The Mark of the Beast isn’t prophetic, it was a coded jab at Emperor Nero. The numeric values of each Hebrew letter in Nero Caesar, or נרון קסר‎ (NRON QSR) adds up to 666, and “Mark” refers to markings on coins, such as US currency features past presidents, and as Jesus referenced faces of Caesars on coins to say “render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s.”

The Drink in Question

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ZigZig said:

moviefreakedmind said:

those are his exact words.

moviefreakedmind said:

I said “eternal fire” and “torment” are his descriptions of hell. Exact words are different

OK.

I guess exact words was inappropriate phrasing on my part, but Jesus Christ does throw around words like that all the time. I’m sure those exact phrases are in certain popular translations, I’d bet my life on it. He obviously condemns people to eternal torment in the afterlife. The reason I’m such a huge fan of the Bible’s words on hell and judgement is because I think it exposes how dark and grim the mythology really is. It makes for a much better narrative within the Bible itself (and I really enjoy the stories and mythology of the Bible), but it makes for a more difficult-to-believe-in religion in the modern age.

The Person in Question

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ZigZig said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Revelation says that the people who take the mark of the beast will be tortured forever in the presence of Jesus Christ (which paints a pretty demented picture of the Prince of Peace if you ask me). In the English language, which I guarantee is what Chyron reads, the Bible clearly and obviously depicts hell as a torturous place of eternal punishment where the wicked have no rest day or night and the smoke of their torment ascendeth forever and ever.

I agree about Revelation, the Bible, the Old Testament and the Acts of the Apostles.
But not the Gospels. AFAIK, Jesus himself never said that Gehenna is a place of Eternal Torment for unsaved people.

Lazarus and the rich man is a story of the eternality of hell.

The Person in Question

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moviefreakedmind said:

Even if you don’t believe that it is literally fire, the point is obvious that Jesus Christ meant that hell is a place of unimaginable torture.

As for chyron’s point about “our perceptions” coloring things, I think it’s fair to judge God by the standards that the Bible claims he judges us. We’re supposed to love our enemies, God tortures his enemies for eternity. I’d imagine that if I personally kidnapped a nonbeliever and tortured them myself because they weren’t Christian, I’d be rightfully labelled an evil maniac. But that’s what Jesus Christ proudly proclaimed he does. Saying that a character that does such a thing is loathsome is not unfair at all.

Isn’t it a basic tenet that only God can judge? I see CatBus’a last paragraph as a plausible scenario. It’s an idea I entertain.

The blue elephant in the room.

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Mrebo said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Even if you don’t believe that it is literally fire, the point is obvious that Jesus Christ meant that hell is a place of unimaginable torture.

As for chyron’s point about “our perceptions” coloring things, I think it’s fair to judge God by the standards that the Bible claims he judges us. We’re supposed to love our enemies, God tortures his enemies for eternity. I’d imagine that if I personally kidnapped a nonbeliever and tortured them myself because they weren’t Christian, I’d be rightfully labelled an evil maniac. But that’s what Jesus Christ proudly proclaimed he does. Saying that a character that does such a thing is loathsome is not unfair at all.

Isn’t it a basic tenet that only God can judge? I see CatBus’a last paragraph as a plausible scenario. It’s an idea I entertain.

He doesn’t live up to his own standards based on his behavior in the Bible.

The Person in Question

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moviefreakedmind said:

Mrebo said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Even if you don’t believe that it is literally fire, the point is obvious that Jesus Christ meant that hell is a place of unimaginable torture.

As for chyron’s point about “our perceptions” coloring things, I think it’s fair to judge God by the standards that the Bible claims he judges us. We’re supposed to love our enemies, God tortures his enemies for eternity. I’d imagine that if I personally kidnapped a nonbeliever and tortured them myself because they weren’t Christian, I’d be rightfully labelled an evil maniac. But that’s what Jesus Christ proudly proclaimed he does. Saying that a character that does such a thing is loathsome is not unfair at all.

Isn’t it a basic tenet that only God can judge? I see CatBus’a last paragraph as a plausible scenario. It’s an idea I entertain.

He doesn’t live up to his own standards based on his behavior in the Bible.

That was a long time ago and I was a lot horn… oh, wait, you weren’t referring to me. Nevermind.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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moviefreakedmind said:

ZigZig said:

moviefreakedmind said:

those are his exact words.

moviefreakedmind said:

I said “eternal fire” and “torment” are his descriptions of hell. Exact words are different

OK.

I guess exact words was inappropriate phrasing on my part, but Jesus Christ does throw around words like that all the time. I’m sure those exact phrases are in certain popular translations, I’d bet my life on it. He obviously condemns people to eternal torment in the afterlife. The reason I’m such a huge fan of the Bible’s words on hell and judgement is because I think it exposes how dark and grim the mythology really is. It makes for a much better narrative within the Bible itself (and I really enjoy the stories and mythology of the Bible), but it makes for a more difficult-to-believe-in religion in the modern age.

I agree with you : the Bible contains maybe the most beautiful texts of antiquity, whatever we believe in it or not.
Showing respect to these texts is also not pretending that Jesus “exactly” said something that he didn’t.

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ZigZig said:

moviefreakedmind said:

ZigZig said:

moviefreakedmind said:

those are his exact words.

moviefreakedmind said:

I said “eternal fire” and “torment” are his descriptions of hell. Exact words are different

OK.

I guess exact words was inappropriate phrasing on my part, but Jesus Christ does throw around words like that all the time. I’m sure those exact phrases are in certain popular translations, I’d bet my life on it. He obviously condemns people to eternal torment in the afterlife. The reason I’m such a huge fan of the Bible’s words on hell and judgement is because I think it exposes how dark and grim the mythology really is. It makes for a much better narrative within the Bible itself (and I really enjoy the stories and mythology of the Bible), but it makes for a more difficult-to-believe-in religion in the modern age.

I agree with you : the Bible contains maybe the most beautiful texts of antiquity, whatever we believe in it or not.
Showing respect to these texts is also not pretending that Jesus “exactly” said something that he didn’t.

I’m not pretending anything. I’ve read the Bible many times in different English translations. I’m not making shit up here. I stand by what I’ve said that the only legitimate way to interpret the Bible’s description of hell is as a place of eternal torment. Perhaps the original Greek is a bit different. I don’t speak Greek, so I don’t know, but Jesus did “exactly” say that hell was a place of torture, fire, sorrow, and it’s at the very least heavily implied to be eternal. Perhaps I shouldn’t have said “exact,” but it’s pretty close.

The Person in Question

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moviefreakedmind said:

ZigZig said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Revelation says that the people who take the mark of the beast will be tortured forever in the presence of Jesus Christ (which paints a pretty demented picture of the Prince of Peace if you ask me). In the English language, which I guarantee is what Chyron reads, the Bible clearly and obviously depicts hell as a torturous place of eternal punishment where the wicked have no rest day or night and the smoke of their torment ascendeth forever and ever.

I agree about Revelation, the Bible, the Old Testament and the Acts of the Apostles.
But not the Gospels. AFAIK, Jesus himself never said that Gehenna is a place of Eternal Torment for unsaved people.

Lazarus and the rich man is a story of the eternality of hell.

Except for the part where the rich man was in such pain that he begged for merely him to dip his finger in some water and have it touched to his tongue because he was so desperate for any kind of relief from the pain.

Support my bandcamp page! https://jacobmartin2.bandcamp.com/

The cat in question

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moviefreakedmind said:

ZigZig said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Revelation says that the people who take the mark of the beast will be tortured forever in the presence of Jesus Christ (which paints a pretty demented picture of the Prince of Peace if you ask me). In the English language, which I guarantee is what Chyron reads, the Bible clearly and obviously depicts hell as a torturous place of eternal punishment where the wicked have no rest day or night and the smoke of their torment ascendeth forever and ever.

I agree about Revelation, the Bible, the Old Testament and the Acts of the Apostles.
But not the Gospels. AFAIK, Jesus himself never said that Gehenna is a place of Eternal Torment for unsaved people.

Lazarus and the rich man is a story of the eternality of hell.

it is a parable presented in a series of 5 parables : a deliberately short and fictional story that Jesus uses to illustrate a teaching.
Taking it in the first degree as a fact is deliberately ignoring the will of a symbolic story that Jesus clearly shows here.

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It is difficult to explain Hell when one can not accept the concept that we do not deserve Heaven, nor can we by anything of our own doing. Because we ourselves are corrupt and sinful, we do not deserve to behold God’s glory or to be in His presence whatsoever. That is, separation from God is a default. But because Christ personally intercedes for us, we are forgiven. But we also need to accept that forgiveness.

In other words, we of ourselves decide to take our inheritance and go our own way, and it is up to each of us to decide to go back home to our father. Surely, once he sees us on the road back from far away, he will run to us and embrace us and throw a party. But we are also free to be able to make the decision to be apostate. It’s our choice.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.

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moviefreakedmind said:

ZigZig said:

moviefreakedmind said:

ZigZig said:

moviefreakedmind said:

those are his exact words.

moviefreakedmind said:

I said “eternal fire” and “torment” are his descriptions of hell. Exact words are different

OK.

I guess exact words was inappropriate phrasing on my part, but Jesus Christ does throw around words like that all the time. I’m sure those exact phrases are in certain popular translations, I’d bet my life on it. He obviously condemns people to eternal torment in the afterlife. The reason I’m such a huge fan of the Bible’s words on hell and judgement is because I think it exposes how dark and grim the mythology really is. It makes for a much better narrative within the Bible itself (and I really enjoy the stories and mythology of the Bible), but it makes for a more difficult-to-believe-in religion in the modern age.

I agree with you : the Bible contains maybe the most beautiful texts of antiquity, whatever we believe in it or not.
Showing respect to these texts is also not pretending that Jesus “exactly” said something that he didn’t.

Jesus did “exactly” say that hell was a place of torture, fire, sorrow, and it’s at the very least heavily implied to be eternal.

Again, citation needed.

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moviefreakedmind said:

Mrebo said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Even if you don’t believe that it is literally fire, the point is obvious that Jesus Christ meant that hell is a place of unimaginable torture.

As for chyron’s point about “our perceptions” coloring things, I think it’s fair to judge God by the standards that the Bible claims he judges us. We’re supposed to love our enemies, God tortures his enemies for eternity. I’d imagine that if I personally kidnapped a nonbeliever and tortured them myself because they weren’t Christian, I’d be rightfully labelled an evil maniac. But that’s what Jesus Christ proudly proclaimed he does. Saying that a character that does such a thing is loathsome is not unfair at all.

Isn’t it a basic tenet that only God can judge? I see CatBus’a last paragraph as a plausible scenario. It’s an idea I entertain.

He doesn’t live up to his own standards based on his behavior in the Bible.

I think Jesus changed all that. As I understand it most Jews don’t believe in eternal suffering. I don’t know how Jews square their modern beliefs with the Old Testament.

The blue elephant in the room.

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Mrebo said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Mrebo said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Even if you don’t believe that it is literally fire, the point is obvious that Jesus Christ meant that hell is a place of unimaginable torture.

As for chyron’s point about “our perceptions” coloring things, I think it’s fair to judge God by the standards that the Bible claims he judges us. We’re supposed to love our enemies, God tortures his enemies for eternity. I’d imagine that if I personally kidnapped a nonbeliever and tortured them myself because they weren’t Christian, I’d be rightfully labelled an evil maniac. But that’s what Jesus Christ proudly proclaimed he does. Saying that a character that does such a thing is loathsome is not unfair at all.

Isn’t it a basic tenet that only God can judge? I see CatBus’a last paragraph as a plausible scenario. It’s an idea I entertain.

He doesn’t live up to his own standards based on his behavior in the Bible.

I think Jesus changed all that. As I understand it most Jews don’t believe in eternal suffering. I don’t know how Jews square their modern beliefs with the Old Testament.

If I understand my Woody Allen correctly, the eternal suffering happens in life.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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Possessed said:

moviefreakedmind said:

ZigZig said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Revelation says that the people who take the mark of the beast will be tortured forever in the presence of Jesus Christ (which paints a pretty demented picture of the Prince of Peace if you ask me). In the English language, which I guarantee is what Chyron reads, the Bible clearly and obviously depicts hell as a torturous place of eternal punishment where the wicked have no rest day or night and the smoke of their torment ascendeth forever and ever.

I agree about Revelation, the Bible, the Old Testament and the Acts of the Apostles.
But not the Gospels. AFAIK, Jesus himself never said that Gehenna is a place of Eternal Torment for unsaved people.

Lazarus and the rich man is a story of the eternality of hell.

Except for the part where the rich man was in such pain that he begged for merely him to dip his finger in some water and have it touched to his tongue because he was so desperate for any kind of relief from the pain.

Right. I don’t see how that’s an exception.

The Person in Question