Amen, brother. 😃
I never had the nerve to make the final cut.
I’m not a Gnostic. I find its dualism problematic, actually. But I can still appreciate it. The Old Testament’s portrayal of God isn’t 100% ugly, but it still ascribes much ugliness to God. The Gnostics rightly recognized that ugliness as antithetical to the overall message of Jesus and rejected it; they just went a little too far.
What ever became of the movement to make “Jedi” a choice for religion on the census? Wasn’t that actually accepted somewhere?
Gods for some, miniature libertarian socialist flags for others.
I think this userbox from RationalWiki sums up my beliefs on religion quite well:
“This user is an atheist but would be fine with a world where Christians were more like Jesus and less like Jerry Falwell.”
(I’m an agnostic, though.)
Waiting for life to go by
Edit: disregard
Move along, move along.
Dealing with Difference and Pluralism from the Perspective of Progressive Islam
Gods for some, miniature libertarian socialist flags for others.
My beliefs are somewhat complex, but I will do my best to outline them clearly.
I believe in the existence of God. My understanding of God is that He is all-powerful, transcendent, eternal, omniscient, and omnipresent. He is the Creator of the Universe. Additionally, I believe in the existence of the soul and its immortality, as well as in the existence of Heaven, Hell, and angels. However, I do not consider myself a Christian, as I do not link these concepts to the Bible or to Jesus; rather, I see them as standalone truths.
When it comes to the afterlife, I do believe in the existence of Heaven and Hell, but my interpretation differs significantly from traditional Christian views. I imagine these two realms as other dimensions that the soul transitions to after death. Heaven, in my view, is a dimension filled with beauty and positivity, where suffering and pain are absent, and where God’s presence is most powerful. In contrast, Hell is a dimension of suffering and pain, devoid of anything pleasant. These dimensions coexist with our Universe, and within them, souls can lead a real existence, much like we do here on Earth, with one key difference: in these dimensions, we are immortal, free from the constraints of physical laws, and capable of experiencing infinite space.
However, I do not subscribe to the idea that people are sent to Heaven or Hell by God based on belief or adherence to a particular religion. Instead, I believe that God established a Universal Moral Law at the beginning of Creation, which we all feel within us. Deep down, we all know what is right and wrong. For instance, we instinctively know that murder, rape, or betrayal are wrong, even if we try to convince ourselves otherwise. Since this sense of morality exists within all of us, I believe that at the moment of death, we are capable of judging ourselves. I think that we go to Hell only if we believe we deserve it based on our actions. Similarly, we ascend to Heaven if we believe we are worthy of it.
Importantly, I do not view Hell as eternal. I believe that every soul can eventually leave Hell and enter Heaven, but only once they have released their guilt and forgiven themselves for their actions.
I also do not believe in the concept of worshipping God. I view God as an infinitely loving being who does not require worship. He acts out of disinterested love, giving without expecting anything in return. Unlike the God of the Old Testament, who demands worship in exchange for favors, my God does everything for us without asking for anything in return. I do not pray to or worship Him, but I fully trust in His wisdom, power, and the benevolence of His plan. This does not mean that you should not worship God — if praying or worshipping helps someone feel closer to Him, then they should do so. It just is not something God demands from us.
I also believe that God loves all of His creatures, just as a father loves his children. This love extends not only to humans but also to angels and, potentially, to other intelligent beings that may exist in the Universe.
Regarding angels, I see them as spiritual beings who handle smaller tasks and serve as guides to mortals, often without the mortals being aware of it. Angels, like humans, have free will, but they choose not to disobey God because they are in direct contact with Him and understand the absolute truth of His nature. For this reason, I do not believe in the existence of fallen angels or Satan. Evil, in my view, has human origins. We all have impulses to do wrong, but these come from within, not from any external evil being tempting us. We are fully capable of resisting and controlling these impulses.
In my theistic worldview, there are no angelic hierarchies as described in traditional Abrahamic religions. All angels are equal in the eyes of God and possess the same powers.
That, in summary, is what I believe.
“I know that all of you like to dream about space and are a little bit of envious of us. But you know what? We’re also envious of you. We are exploring space, but it’s only the beginning. Planets and unknown worlds are awaiting you. You will continue to storm the Universe.”
— Yuri Gagarin
The belief that God doesn’t send people to hell, but that we send ourselves there, is exactly what mainstream Christianity believes (Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and many varieties of Protestantism). It’s mostly just Calvinists and fundamentalists who don’t believe that.
The belief that God doesn’t send people to hell, but that we send ourselves there, is exactly what mainstream Christianity believes (Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and many varieties of Protestantism). It’s mostly just Calvinists and fundamentalists who don’t believe that.
Look, I live in Italy, the country where Catholicism has its central base, and in all my life I’ve never heard anyone say that you send yourself to Hell thanks to your own guilt. I’ve always been taught that it’s God who decides who goes to Hell and who goes to Heaven, according to what the person has done in his life. Even during religion lessons at school (because yes, in Italy they teach religion at school), I have always been told that it’s God who decides that, not ourselves. Moreover, in the Book of Revelation it’s stated that at the end of time, it will be Jesus who will decide who can live in the Heavenly Jerusalem and who will have to perish in the Lake of Fire with Satan and his Demons. So, I’ve always assumed that mainstream Christianity teaches that it’s God who decides who deserves Heaven and who deserves Hell, not ourselves.
“I know that all of you like to dream about space and are a little bit of envious of us. But you know what? We’re also envious of you. We are exploring space, but it’s only the beginning. Planets and unknown worlds are awaiting you. You will continue to storm the Universe.”
— Yuri Gagarin
Fair enough. Certain ideas float around in popular Christianity that theologians in the same traditions wouldn’t take seriously.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which, as I’m sure you’re aware, is a pretty authoritative document, says this:
1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: “He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.” Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren. To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”
And:
1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”
The belief that God doesn’t send people to hell, but that we send ourselves there, is exactly what mainstream Christianity believes (Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and many varieties of Protestantism). It’s mostly just Calvinists and fundamentalists who don’t believe that.
God created hell for the devil and his angels, “Then he will also say to those on the left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels!” (Matthew 25:41) and He does send people there who refuse to believe (John 3:18), “Don’t be afraid of those who want to kill your body; they cannot touch your soul. Fear only God, who can destroy both soul and body in hell,” (Matthew 10:28), “And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.” (Revelation 20:15). In those cases yes the unbeliever paves there way to hell, but God does the sending / sentencing or casting into lake of fire at judgement.
“There is a tremor in the Force.”
“Give yourself to the dark side.” -Lord Vader
Now looks to be as good a time as any to share this article:
Gods for some, miniature libertarian socialist flags for others.
I totally agree.
The belief that God doesn’t send people to hell, but that we send ourselves there, is exactly what mainstream Christianity believes (Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and many varieties of Protestantism). It’s mostly just Calvinists and fundamentalists who don’t believe that.
God created hell for the devil and his angels, “Then he will also say to those on the left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels!” (Matthew 25:41) and He does send people there who refuse to believe (John 3:18), “Don’t be afraid of those who want to kill your body; they cannot touch your soul. Fear only God, who can destroy both soul and body in hell,” (Matthew 10:28), “And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.” (Revelation 20:15). In those cases yes the unbeliever paves there way to hell, but God does the sending / sentencing or casting into lake of fire at judgement.
Thank you for your reply. I think the verses you cited make a compelling point at first glance, but what was said in the above-posted article about prooftexting applies here.
There are countless ways in which the Bible attributes direct agency to God to emphasize His authority over all things. Another example is when Exodus alternately says that “God hardened the heart of Pharaoh” and “Pharaoh hardened his heart.” I don’t think there’s any reason to see those passages as saying different things–that sometimes it was God, and sometimes it was Pharaoh. Rather, Pharaoh’s heart hardened in response to God because of his own inner state and choices, just like some materials harden when exposed to the sun, while others melt (and it isn’t that the sun acts differently in the different cases).
Similarly, I interpret all of the passages you cite as figurative imagery, reflecting how the sinful soul is unable to endure the presence of God. It is almost impossible for us human beings to imagine condemning ourselves to eternal torment, so Jesus and Revelation speak of it in juridical terms, which would have been better understood by the people of that time.
The position of the Catholic Church is twofold: (1) we condemn ourselves to hell through our own actions, (2) God is our supreme judge.
My preferred theological interpretation of this (among several possible ones) is that in deliberately rejecting what is good (which is what a mortal sin is), we implicitly reject the source of goodness and the supreme Good (i.e., God). If we do not repent of that sin–in other words, if we do not come to see it as evil–we will hate whatever is incompatible with that sin. In coming face-to-face with God at our judgement, we will be unable to stand God’s presence and God will cut us off from that presence in accordance with our own choosing, so as not to override our decisions. Were God to simply change who we were or force us to be in His presence anyway, it would be an annihilation of ourselves–one might even say a kind of divine rape. That’s the summary version of it, anyway.
“The Ploughshare Without Fear”: Remembering Martin Buber (1878-1965)
Gods for some, miniature libertarian socialist flags for others.
I’m a Christian, but far from a perfect one. I was raised for a long time by fear-minded legalists, which resulted in my leaving the church at age 18 and not returning for 10 years. It was actually a college friend who helped me start trusting God again; I began visiting his church in 2008 and kept going until 2015 when I moved away.
My basic philosophy about religion is this: if any one of them is absolutely true, then by definition the rest have to be false. I don’t believe in picking and choosing to have a generic form of “faith” that just strokes your own ego. The fact of the matter is that either God exists, or He doesn’t - there’s no other option. If He does, then as our Creator He deserves our worship and obedience. If He doesn’t, then there’s no ultimate purpose to life and we’re all worm food in the end.
I’d also like to add that in my view, a very important distinction needs to be made between atheists and anti-theists. From what I’ve experienced in my life, your average atheist rejects God personally but has no problem with others thinking otherwise. Its the anti-theists who go nuts every time religious people (especially Christians) take a stand, hurling insults and character attacks.
I could go on with this for a while, but I think that’s enough for now. If anyone has a question for me about what I’ve said, feel free to post away and I’ll get back to you. God Bless!
I have been an atheist and a convinced materialist for most of my life, up until 2021. However, from 2021 to 2023, I went through a phase where I started believing in the existence of a single, omnipotent God, and I also started believing in the existence of Hell and Heaven, though I didn’t follow any specific religion. I extensively described the spiritual beliefs I had at the time in a post I published in this thread on May 14, 2023. A few months after I published that post, I returned to being an atheist and a convinced materialist.
Now, while this shift from being an atheist to believing in God and the afterlife might seem sudden, it actually made sense given the circumstances. In 2021, I underwent a very complicated surgery, and I wasn’t sure if everything would turn out well. That uncertainty caused me to abandon my usual rational mindset and place my hope in a higher power, something larger than myself. It was a deeply emotional and vulnerable time, and my belief in God, Heaven, and Hell emerged from that.
However, after reflecting on those experiences in the months following my May 2023 post, I eventually returned to my previous stance. I’m still an atheist and a convinced materialist to this day.
I’d also like to add that in my view, a very important distinction needs to be made between atheists and anti-theists. From what I’ve experienced in my life, your average atheist rejects God personally but has no problem with others thinking otherwise. Its the anti-theists who go nuts every time religious people (especially Christians) take a stand, hurling insults and character attacks.
I consider myself a staunch Communist, fully convinced that scientific atheism should replace all forms of religion on Earth. However, I don’t believe that this process should be carried out by force, but rather by peaceful education. Furthermore, I’m often the first to defend Christians when I see them being unfairly attacked due to misconceptions others may have about their religion. While I do philosophically oppose Christianity, and religion as a whole, I also believe in intellectual honesty. So, if someone criticizes Christianity for reasons I don’t agree with or based on flawed perceptions of Christian theology, I’m the first to defend it against those unjustified and misguided attacks. Do you think this stance counts as anti-theism?
“I know that all of you like to dream about space and are a little bit of envious of us. But you know what? We’re also envious of you. We are exploring space, but it’s only the beginning. Planets and unknown worlds are awaiting you. You will continue to storm the Universe.”
— Yuri Gagarin
Spartacus01 said:
I consider myself a staunch Communist, fully convinced that scientific atheism should replace all forms of religion on Earth. However, I, along with every other Communist who has ever lived, don’t believe that this process should be carried out by force, but rather by peaceful education. Furthermore, I’m often the first to defend Christians when I see them being unfairly attacked due to misconceptions others may have about their religion. While I do philosophically oppose Christianity, and religion as a whole, I also believe in intellectual honesty. So, if someone criticizes Christianity for reasons I don’t agree with or based on flawed perceptions of Christian theology, I’m the first to defend it against those unjustified and misguided attacks. Do you think this stance counts as anti-theism?
Strictly speaking, no, but I feel bad that you currently hold that view. Are you familiar at all with Christian apologetics? Its the practice of using the mind to defend your faith, and not just rely on the Bible alone. I don’t agree with all their stances, but some of my favorite speakers in this regard include Frank Turek, Lee Strobel, Josh McDowell, and Kent Hovind. As the saying goes, “Christians don’t get points for being stupid”, and I think there’s a difference between having faith and BLIND faith. Also, your brief moment of considering the supernatural during your surgery reminds me of the phrase “There’s no such thing as an atheist in a foxhole.” If your life gets bad enough, you’ll end up crying out to something or Someone greater than yourself.
Gods for some, miniature libertarian socialist flags for others.
Hey everyone, glad I found out a discussion like this exists! Recently, I’ve wanted to share something in a place like this that I pray will gain traction, that something is the Gospel!
I’m not sure what everyone on here personally believes, but to those who may have questions or skepticism toward Christianity, I want to be gentle yet truthful, since love always tells the truth, otherwise it’s not love. So I would ask, please take time to read and consider what I’m about to share, consider please where you personally stand with God. Time I believe is very short.
So, the Gospel, or good news, starts with the fact that All human beings are born sinners and rebels in God’s eyes (Psalm 51). We’ve all broken His Laws including myself, the ten commandments, in one way or another (don’t lie, don’t steal, don’t lust after anyone, don’t use God’s name in vain). The Bible says no one is righteous and the wages of sin is death (Romans 3:23, 6:23), death meaning physical and spiritual in a very real place called hell. No amount of good works can save someone, and like I said time is running out. God is a Good Judge who will punish lawbreakers eternally and consciously, BUT there is a way out. Jesus Christ, the Son of God, became a human being, fully God, fully man, to live a perfect life and die a death we deserve, rose again 3 days later, and offers forgiveness and salvation to all. If we Repent of our sins, surrender to Him as Lord and Savior, and He will forgive, cleanse, make you a brand new creation! Heaven will become your future home, God will become your Father and no longer enemy!
I implore you reader, examine your life for spiritual fruit (2 Corinthians 7/ Galatians 5), or evidence of this change in your life. If there isn’t this message is for you!
*yawn*
Gods for some, miniature libertarian socialist flags for others.
I’m not a Gnostic. I find its dualism problematic, actually. But I can still appreciate it. The Old Testament’s portrayal of God isn’t 100% ugly, but it still ascribes much ugliness to God. The Gnostics rightly recognized that ugliness as antithetical to the overall message of Jesus and rejected it; they just went a little too far.
Jesus is the Old Testament God
*yawn*
yawn yeah it does
*yawn*
yawn yeah it does
Can you elaborate?
“I know that all of you like to dream about space and are a little bit of envious of us. But you know what? We’re also envious of you. We are exploring space, but it’s only the beginning. Planets and unknown worlds are awaiting you. You will continue to storm the Universe.”
— Yuri Gagarin