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Reel lengths

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 (Edited)

Standard 1000ft reels

First frame of each reel, with its GOUT offset

GOUT
Frame | HH:MM:SS

689 - STAR WARS title card appears . . . *clap*

012,676 | 00:08:48
027,8___ | 00:19:20 - fade to black
041,351 | 00:28:44
055,749 | 00:38:45
070,632 | 00:49:05
086,677 | 01:00:15
100,686 | 01:09:59
113,652 | 01:19:00
128,032 | 01:29:00
144,053 | 01:40:08
158,395 | 01:50:06

Times are calculated using the simple formula:
[(Frame) / (24000/1001)] with the remainder thrown away.
They might or might not match any given DVD player's display.

We might be able to guesstimate filling in the blank using the cue dots on Moth3r's widescreen bootleg

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Last edited on June 26, 2010 at 8:46 PM by Darth Mallwalker

That was NTSC. This is PAL GOUT:

689 - STAR WARS title card

012,676 || Reel02
027.822 || Reel03
041,351 || Reel04
055,749 || Reel05
070,632 || Reel06
086,677 || Reel07
100,686 || Reel08
113,652 || Reel09
128,032 || Reel10
144.054 || Reel11
158.396 || Reel12

cite source

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Mallwalker said:



GOUT
Frame

688 - STAR WARS title card appears . . . *clap*

015,591 | 0:10:50 | Reel02 | Luke collapses in snow
030,742 | 0:21:22 | Reel03 | Han welding
046,518 | 0:32:20 | Reel04 | walker's ankles (wonder if the leader of this reel contains Luke's other grappling hook miss ;)
059,569 | 0:41:24 | Reel05 | pterodactyls
075,060 | 0:52:10 | Reel06 | 'conference call' with Vader
090,888 | 1:03:10 | Reel07 | Luke enters cave
106,133 | 1:13:46 | Reel08 | Falcon perched on destroyer
121,723 | 1:24:36 | Reel09 | X-wing leaves Dagobah
134,731 | 1:33:39 | Reel10 | Han 'walks the plank'
150,204 | 1:44:24 | Reel11 | Luke bounces on trampoline (end of Reel10)
165,250 | 1:54:52 | Reel12 | Falcon fleeing Bespin

Times are calculated using simple formula: (Frame) divided by (24000/1001)
They might or might not match any given DVD player's display


That's ESB from another thread

------------------------------Original post is unedited above this line -------------------------------

That's ESB NTSC. This is PAL GOUT:

688 - STAR WARS title card

015,591 || Reel02 | Luke collapses in snow
030,742 || Reel03 | Han welding
046,518 || Reel04 | walker's ankles
059,569 || Reel05 | pterodactyls
075,060 || Reel06 | 'conference call' with Vader
090,888 || Reel07 | Luke enters cave
106,133 || Reel08 | Falcon perched on destroyer
121,723 || Reel09 | X-wing leaves Dagobah
134,731 || Reel10 | Han 'walks the plank'
150.206 || Reel11 | Luke bounces on trampoline (end of Reel10)
165.252 || Reel12 | Falcon fleeing Bespin

cite source

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Here's RotJ

GOUT
Frame | HH:MM:SS

689 - STAR WARS title card appears . . . *clap*

011,771 | 00:08:10
024,346 | 00:16:55
039,042 | 00:27:08
053,182 | 00:36:58
068,664 | 00:47:43
083,374 | 00:57:57
098,144 | 01:08:13
111,450 | 01:17:28
127,216 | 01:28:25
141,781 | 01:38:33
155,269 | 01:47:56
170,895 | 01:58:47

Times are calculated using the simple formula:
[(Frame) / (24000/1001)] with the remainder thrown away.
They might or might not match any given DVD player's display.

Corrections would be appreciated!

------------------------------Original post is unedited above this line -------------------------------

Corrections will still be appreciated!

That was NTSC. This is PAL GOUT:

689 - STAR WARS title card

011,771 || Reel02
024,346 || Reel03
039,042 || Reel04
053,182 || Reel05
068.666 || Reel06
083.376 || Reel07
098.146 || Reel08
111.452 || Reel09
127.218 || Reel10
141.782 || Reel11
155.270 || Reel12
170.896 || Reel13

cite source
Thanks again Red5

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

Author
Time
 (Edited)

If you have the theatrical telecine you can literally see the reel change--two series of cigarette burns and then about 10-30 missing frames at the head and tail of the changeover so there's a big jump cut, along with an audio pop. You can hear the jumps on the 70mm audio bootleg too. You could probably just look up the frame rate on GOUT in the corresponding cut. But it would make a good confirmation tool to the times you have listed above.

The Secret History of Star Wars -- now available on Amazon.com!

"When George went back and put new creatures into the original Star Wars, I find that disturbing. It’s a revision of history. That bothers me."

--James Cameron, Entertainment Weekly, April 2010

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I thought there were only six reels?

I remember someone asking about reel changes a while ago. IIRC he was planning on making a set with high-bitrate video and PCM audio spread over six DVDs, with the disc swaps aligned with the reel changes.

Can you remember the thread I'm talking about?

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I'm not entirely sure, but I think raw negative is traditionally edited into 1000 foot reels. Projection is a bit different though, release prints for features are typically 6 reels (or more, depending on length) and the standard length is 2000 feet. I'm not sure when the cigarette burns would be put in and what length the IP would be, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was the 2000' length with the burn marks for change-overs. Release prints are ultimately duped straight from it--the only reason the Internegative exists is because you can't print positive from a positive, so I would assume that the IP is basically theatre-ready. But maybe that all gets done in the internegative so that the IP is more "prestine".

Does the IP/GOUT even have cigarette burns? It would be hard to tell if the reel changes on the IP are the same as the release prints unless there is noticeable frame cutting (as the heads and tails of reels sometimes lose a frame or two to damage over the years) but we'd be talking a difference of two or three frames here--and only if they had to splice out a damaged head/tail frame.

The Secret History of Star Wars -- now available on Amazon.com!

"When George went back and put new creatures into the original Star Wars, I find that disturbing. It’s a revision of history. That bothers me."

--James Cameron, Entertainment Weekly, April 2010

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Time

GOUT has no cue marks.

IP might be 2000ft reels ... I'll likely never see an IP to know for sure.
But these are some we can see now:
- domestic Pan/Scan CAV laserdisc
- Japanese SC laserdisc (first widescreen transfer)
- GOUT

Now for this example, let us consider the first changeover in ESB.
First reel ends with Artoo standing outside the base, scanning for Luke.
Threepio tries to reassure themselves "He'll be quite alright."
Second reel begins with Luke collapsing in the snow (returning from wampa cave.)

Pan/Scan laserdisc is missing 4 frames of Artoo + 3 frames of Luke
3+4 = 7 frames missing compared to GOUT

JSC laserdisc is missing 5 frames of Artoo + 2 of Luke = 7 fewer than GOUT

[GOUT might be missing some frames too, compared to IP, but we'll never know it.]

So these are the raw data I've collected.
They're typical of what I've found across the board for all three films.

What does it mean?
Well I'd say . . . IP can exist on 2000ft reels if-and-only-if
a new IP was pepared (from 1000ft negative reels) for each laserdisc release.

zombie, how does that match your earlier research? I've searched in vain for your post(s) about when new IPs were printed. IIRC you had written on that topic before.
Were new IPs made for each of those laserdisc releases?




By the way I've done some interpolating, and some extrapolating based on Moth3r's cue dots, and I've decided "Thank the maker" reel begins at GOUT offset 27,820 (give-or-take four-or-five frames ;)

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

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 (Edited)

I have no idea what the original Laserdisks were sourced from. Maybe an IP, maybe just a theatrical print.

In 1985, a new IP was printed for the specific purpose of creating a new, high quality source for home video (the existing IPs were falling apart and old). This was the source for every single (American) home video release since then, as far as my research shows. It was the source of the GOUT/DC, and the source of the Faces set. (It was even used as a source for the SE restoration).

My understanding is that the only post-1985 LD releases with burn marks are the PAL disks--which makes sense since they were taken from a different source. Thinking about it now, it does make sense that burn marks are not put in to the IP, because the IP is basically the raw master for the film (since the O-neg doesn't have color timing). The 1985 IP doesn't have subs either, since they were electronically (I'm pretty sure) generated for specific video releases as countries dictated. Probably this was done on the D1/2 master of each specific release.

...however, since the 1985 IP was never intended to be used as a theatrical base, maybe this is why there was no theatre artifacts like burn marks. You don't need burn marks if it is made for video. So, there is still an out there.

Let me ask you this: was there ever an American Laserdisk release after 1985 that had burns? And does the DC/Faces themselves have burns?

If the answer to the first is yes, then there are a number of possibilities there. But if the answer to the second is yes, then...well, I don't know what that would mean except that they couldn't possibly be derived from the GOUT unless we find evidence of image tampering to hide them (which would be extremely difficult on 1993 electronic video telecine technology).

EDIT

After further research, changeover burn marks can be added either to prints or to IPs. It's basically up to the lab and/or producer's preference. The 1985 IP doesn't have any, if GOUT is any indication.

The Secret History of Star Wars -- now available on Amazon.com!

"When George went back and put new creatures into the original Star Wars, I find that disturbing. It’s a revision of history. That bothers me."

--James Cameron, Entertainment Weekly, April 2010

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Darth Mallwalker said:

I've decided "Thank the maker" reel begins at GOUT offset 27,820
27,822

I've done more in-depth analysis of the cue dots in Moth3r's widescreen bootleg

wikipedia.org said:

According to SMPTE-55 (SMPTE Universal leader), there shall be 4 frames of motor cue, followed by 168 frames of picture, followed by 4 frames of changeover cue, followed by 24 frames of picture.
There exist other standards (SMPTE-301, maybe some EBU ones too,) but
the print used for Moth3r's bootleg conforms to SMPTE-55 (4 + 168 + 4 + 24)

GOUT doesn't have any cue dots.
If it had, here's where they'd be:

27,622-625 | motor cue
27,794-796 | changeover cue dots on Moth3r's bootleg (4+168+3+0)
(27,794-797)| changeover cue (SMPTE-55)
(27,821/822)| reel change (SMPTE-55)

55,549-552 | motor cue
55,721-724 | changeover cue
55,748/749 | reel change

86,477-480 | motor cue
(86,649-652)| changeover cue should have been here (SMPTE-55)
86,650-653 | actual cue dots on Moth3r's bootleg (4+169+4+23) Fuckwit!
86,676/677 | reel change

113,452-455 | motor cue
113,624-627 | changeover cue
113,651/652 | reel change

143,854-857 | motor cue
(144,026-29)|(SMPTE-55) Moth3r's projectionist jumped the gun; cannot confirm
144,052/053 | reel change (4+168+4+23) because GOUT is missing a frame


Numbers in parentheses are calculated/interpolated/extrapolated.
The rest are based on observations of filmed events. For example,
at 86,477 Chewie steps in front one of the green lights in the Falcon's corridor, blocking the camera's view of it.

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

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FWIW

I know from personal experience that film prints dont come in standard length size when they hit the theatres

Negatives might be different

But Ive seen some reels bigger than others straight from the studio, seen movies come in anywhere from 5 to 10+ reels, and depending on their print source.....matching up one print to another to exact frame numbers can be quite difficult given that the projectionist often if not always makes splices that cut off different number of frames on each reel, and depending on their setup, splices them together......not always in a seamless fashion

By the time a theatre is done with the print, since most of them get treated like crap and get subjected to things happening like the film sliding on the side of a roller causing a scratch or hitting the grate in the projector causing a almost constant scratch or my favorite.....a brain wrap where cutting and splicing the print is done, often a few frames out

So hopefully the studios have an unused print source instead of relying on returns from theatres

Moth3r said: No, there is no video embedding option in this forum software (thank god!)

 

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From "ESB IMPERIAL EDITION.nfo"

dakjedi9999 said:

--- 1M3/2M1 Luke's Escape: Original - Unused parts
--- 3M4/4M1 Luke's First Crash: Film Cut
--- 5M4/6M1 Solo And The Princess: Film Cut
--- 6M5/7M1 The Magic Tree: Film Cut
--- 7M4/8M1 Vader's Command: Original - Unused parts
--- 9M6/10M1 Carbon Freeze: Film Cut

Did anybody else spot the reel numbers ?
For example "7M1" is the beginning of the seventh reel.

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

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ombie84 said:

You can hear the jumps on the 70mm audio bootleg too.

Here's my memory of them (from my recording), as each reel was about 20 mins: 

 

End of reel 1:  Luke bringing C-3PO and R2-D2 inside after sale; reel 2 begins with Threepio's oil bath.

 

End of reel 2: Tarken tells meeting "We will then crush the rebellion with one swift stroke"; reel 3 begins with the discovery of the dead Jawas.

 

Reel 3 ends after Luke's training session ("You've just taken your first step into a larger world"); reel 4 begins with Tarkin being informed that a rebel base was found deserted.

 

Reel 4 ends and reel 5 begins during the trash compacter sequence.

 

Reel 5 ends and reel 6 begins inside the rebel hanger ("All pilots to their stations") prior to the Death Star attack.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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i will be adding both sw, and esb

information. once i've confirmed them.

didn't want to forget about this thread.

later

-1

[no GOUT in CED?-> GOUT CED]

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Great! Do tell if you find any errors, I want to know.

Although they're not listed here in this thread, I also have compiled
the first frame of the last shot on each reel, and
the last frame of the first shot on each reel.

Perhaps those data would be useful when it's time to combine the individual VOB files
that you were working in the other thread.

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

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Time

ok, i've completed the first pass

of the shot list for all 7 VOB files

for star wars NTSC widescreen here:

============================

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/frame-data-star-wars-GOUT-NTSC-widescreen-V10-now-complete/topic/9567/

 

i'll post a spreadsheet,

and there will a few updates,

checks against frame numbers as

a single VOB, and maybe some kind

of grouping of the shots.

 

that's it for now.

 

later

-1

[no GOUT in CED?-> GOUT CED]

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 (Edited)

none said:


Looking at RotJ newscasts found the first of the cue markers for that film:

http://fd.noneinc.com/Reel_Changes/1983-Reel_Change-WABC7NewsTWC29959-3_4-In-b.jpg

Odd that newscasts would have been given a telecine of an actual 35mm print. The scene is where Leia and Luke jump onto the speeder bikes pursuing the escaping Scout Troopers. About 53:00-56:00 minutes in. (dependent upon version) Unsure if this pic is from the In or Out marker section.
Dunno if it's "In or Out" but wikipedia calls it "motor cue"

Then extrapolating with PAL GOUT frame numbers:

83176 - 83179 .............. motor cue
83180 - 83347 .............. (168 frames)
83348 - 83351 .............. changeover cue
83352 - 83375 .............. ( 24 frames)
83376 - ..............next reel. I have foreseen it in Post_3 :)

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/7107/83178.th.png
83178

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

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 (Edited)

Yup you've nailed it.  Way to show off the joys of mathematics.  This motor cue and the changeover cue can be seen in VideoCollectors RotJ_TP and TWC328, will have pics eventually.  Because of the pan/scan of their common source, unfortunately don't have the first two reel changes.

EDIT

Motorcue 3-4

 

Changeover 3-4

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How did the Special Editions affect the reel lengths?  Or was the new material able to squeeze into the existing cues.

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 (Edited)

none said:


How did the Special Editions affect the reel lengths? Or was the new material able to squeeze into the existing cues.

Did anybody listen to the dts discs yet? I did, using the Winamp plugin.
The ANH reel breaks are mostly unchanged, with one difference:

27821 / 27822
58479 / 58480
86676 / 86677
113651 / 113652
144052 / 144053 (PAL 144054)

Those are GOUT frame numbers not SE, but you get the idea.
If you look up those numbers in your GOUT you'll see something like this:

http://img542.imageshack.us/img542/2324/58479.png
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/7374/58480.png
And now your Highness we will discuss the location of your hidden rebel base.

Those pics are from DarkSvn LD preservation. I couldn't resist the urge to IVTC it
after reading that msycamore has been counting frames of the various SE releases.

The motor cue would've been eight seconds earlier, or right after Luke wished the Lars' would stop smoking ;)



Sounds like ROTJ had the same breaks in '97 as in '83

24345 / 24346 -- burping frog outside Jabba's hut
53181 / 53182 -- Emperor arrives at Death Star II
83375 / 83376 -- speeder bike chase
111451 / 111452 - Luke tells Leia about their family ties
141781 / 141782 - Ewok bonks himself with tangled slingshot
170895 / 170896 - Luke drags Vader to docking bay for unmasking

Again, source of authority is the dts discs floating on usenet

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

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I'm pretty sure ESB SE also had the same reel breaks as the original, the '97 ESB I compiled lack one frame but is still two frames more complete than the NTSC 2004 DVD, see here: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Complete-Comparison-of-Special-Edition-Visual-Changes/post/590213/#TopicPost590213

two frames are absent around the 2nd reel change and one frame at the tail end of reel 4 that are present on the '97 Broadcasts.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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ok, i'm pretty sure we have 99%+ of the

frames needed now.

 

there might some small gaps here and there,

i haven't checked for sure.

 

when we make our final assembly cut,

i'll go through the details and post our

findings for our new reference.

 

we will have to wait on empire, because

thats going to a lot longer, and will be

trickier to do because we still have a few

adjustments to make to it.

 

later

-1

[no GOUT in CED?-> GOUT CED]

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negative1 said:

there might some small gaps here and there,

Then you'll have some 'splainin' to do, Lucy

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r