RedLetterMedia's Revenge of Nadine [TPM 108 pg Resp. [RotS Review+RotS Preview+ST'09 Reveiw+Next Review Teaser+2002 Interview+AotC OutTakes+Noooooo! Doc.+SW Examiner Rebuttal+AotC Review+TPM Review] — Page 21

Alexrd said:

Chewtobacca said:

RLM explained that it wouldn't make sense for Anakin to construct Threepio to help Shmi by observing that a protocol droid wouldn't be much use in the home.

That's his personal opinion. Where did he observe that?

Presumably, from this little gem of dialogue from 77, between Uncle Owen (who lives on the same planet and in pretty much the same setting as Shmi did), and 3p0:

Owen: You, I suppose you're programmed for Etiquette and protocol.

3p0: Protocol? Why, it's my primary function, sir. I am well-versed in all the customs-

Owen: I have no need for a protocol droid.

3p0: Of course you haven't, sir. Not in an environment such as this.

Moreover, it just seems like common sense. Are you seriously suggesting that a slave woman living on a backwater planet run by the hutts, owned by a sleazy junk dealer, apparently stuck at home all day, would have some pressing need for a droid  that's been programmed for "etiquette and protocol"? What, do you think Watto had her busy entertaining foreign dignitaries or something?

Akwat Kbrana said:

Presumably, from this little gem of dialogue from 77, between Uncle Owen (who lives on the same planet and in pretty much the same setting as Shmi did), and 3p0:

Yet, on the same movie, we see him do other things than protocol. Why is this so wrong with TPM but not wrong with ANH?

Akwat Kbrana said:

Moreover, it just seems like common sense. Are you seriously suggesting that a slave woman living on a backwater planet run by the hutts, owned by a sleazy junk dealer, apparently stuck at home all day, would have some pressing need for a droid  that's been programmed for "etiquette and protocol"? What, do you think Watto had her busy entertaining foreign dignitaries or something?

Her son thought she did need help at home, and happen to find pieces of protocol droid, which from a physical point of view looks way more helpful than an astromech for chores.

Chewtobacca said:

All sorts of things can be used for tasks they weren't meant for.  What is hard to believe is that Anakin would deliberately make a droid designed for diplomacy and protocol for a domestic environment.  That's like making a sports car for a delivery man.  Sure, he could use the sports car for deliveries, but wouldn't it be better to make him a van instead...

Yet, you need space on the vehicle for the deliveries. A protocol droid seems way more pratical for chores than an astromech. We do see 3PO serving drinks on RotS, IIRC. (R2 does the same in RotJ, but that only proves that there is no problem here.)

Chewtobacca said:

I don't think RLM feels he is nitpicking: he seems to me to be outlining what he believes to flaws with the film.  He obviously likes the original film and seems genuinely disappointed with the prequels.  I doubt that he set out to find fault.

I believe that he loves the originals and is disappointed with the prequels. But those videos are indeed about fault finding, in my opinion.

Chewtobacca said:

I fail to see how Artoo can be considered a gonk, not that I would use the term.

My mistake. I thought it was you who had mention a gonk.

Chewtobacca said:

I think it is perfectly logical for Anakin, a boy who wants to be a pilot, to construct himself an astromech droid.  This seems more logical than constructing a protocol droid for his mother.

From the comments of his friends, an astromech is not something that common around there.

Chewtobacca said:

I meant that if we wanted to set up a more plausible scenario than the film presents us with, a ruler having a protocol droid for translating in diplomatic situations would be logical.

But that's not in question. Amidala may have one. Who's to say? It's not like she has an astromech instead of a protocol on a daily basis.

Chewtobacca said:

It makes more sense than Anakin or Shmi having one.  If Lucas was determined to work Artoo and Threepio into the prequels, this would have been a better way of doing it, as far I'm concerned.

Read above.

Chewtobacca said:

That's the entire point of the comparison I made!  You could do it.  Open the sunroof.  Have deliveries sticking out of the boot.  Make more trips.  It's possible, but it's not likely.  That's my point.  If Anakin's mother needed help, it's possible that he would build a droid specialised in protocol and translation,  but it's more likely he would make her a droid more fitted to the purpose.

Yes, but he happened to find protocol droid pieces.

Chewtobacca said:

So what?  He can still build one.  If he wants to be a pilot, having him build an astromech would at least make sense.

Yes, but as I said, he wanted a droid to help his mother. If he didn't find that a protocol droid could the job, he would never had started to (re)build him.

I argued that a more plausible scenario -- if you want to have Artoo in the film -- is to have Anakin build the droid for himself.

But the current scenario has nothing wrong with it. As far as R2's concerned.

P.S: Gonk is a droid. ;)

Yet, on the same movie, we see him do other things than protocol. Why is this so wrong with TPM but not wrong with ANH?

Because while there's nothing wrong with a protocol droid doing something non-protocol related, that's quite a different issue than specifically building a protocol droid to help a homeless mom do chores around the house. That's like me writing a Greek lexicon for my wife, who has absolutely no use for the ability to look up the English definition to Greek words. Sure, she could use it as a paperweight...but if that's what she needs, then why not just give her a paperweight to begin with?

Her son thought she did need help at home, and happen to find pieces of protocol droid, which from a physical point of view looks way more helpful than an astromech for chores.

Ok, but RLM isn't debating whether or not Anakin, on finding some pieces to a protocol droid, should or shouldn't have gone ahead and put them together. He's debating the storytelling merit (or lack thereof) of using this as a subplot. The issue isn't so much whether or not Anakin, if given the opportunity, should've build a protocol droid; it's whether or not George Lucas should have written that into the movie. 

And however you rationalize it, Anakin building C3p0 is just mind-numbingly stupid. For one thing it's fanwankery, pure and simple. For another, it shrinks the universe and introduces a level of "convenience" that stretches credulity beyond the breaking point. Then of course, to top it off, there's the fact that a junk dealer's slave would have no need for a droid specifically designed for etiquette/protocol and translating over six million languages.

Akwat Kbrana said:

Because while there's nothing wrong with a protocol droid doing something non-protocol related, that's quite a different issue than specifically building a protocol droid to help a homeless mom do chores around the house. That's like me writing a Greek lexicon for my wife, who has absolutely no use for the ability to look up the English definition to Greek words. Sure, she could use it as a paperweight...but if that's what she needs, then why not just give her a paperweight to begin with?

Maybe because he had not found any paperweight. He found a lexicon.

Ok, but RLM isn't debating whether or not Anakin, on finding some pieces to a protocol droid, should or shouldn't have gone ahead and put them together. He's debating the storytelling merit (or lack thereof) of using this as a subplot. The issue isn't so much whether or not Anakin, if given the opportunity, should've build a protocol droid; it's whether or not George Lucas should have written that into the movie.

Subplot?! And why shouldn't he have written that? It doesn't hurt anything. The problem is that you (and/or RLM) seem to find a problem that a protocol droid can do chores. It's like hitting a strawman.

And however you rationalize it, Anakin building C3p0 is just mind-numbingly stupid. For one thing it's fanwankery, pure and simple. For another, it shrinks the universe and introduces a level of "convenience" that stretches credulity beyond the breaking point.

Like Leia and Luke being brothers. Oh, almost forgot. That's OT so it's okay.

Then of course, to top it off, there's the fact that a junk dealer's slave would have no need for a droid specifically designed for etiquette/protocol and translating over six million languages.

That's why he used it for chores.

Maybe because he had not found any paperweight. He found a lexicon.

No, for the analogy to make sense he would have had to find a disassembled lexicon which he carefully pieced together into perfect working order, only so his illiterate mother could use it as a paperweight. Which is ridiculous.

Besides, your main argument in rationalizing this seems to be that he happened to find old parts that specifically worked only for the construction of a protocol droid. But, to paraphrase you from earlier in this thread, "That's just your personal opinion. You didn't observe it in the film." The only data we have from the film itself is Anakin telling Padme that he's building "a protocol droid, to help mom." He doesn't say "I happened to find these protocol droid parts and decided to throw it together just for the hell of it. Maybe he can do chores or something." As far as we know, he somehow specifically set out to built a protocol droid to help his mother, presumably with her ordinary day-to-day activities. Which, again, is absurd.

Subplot?! And why shouldn't he have written that? It doesn't hurt anything. The problem is that you (and/or RLM) seem to find a problem that a protocol droid can do chores. It's like hitting a strawman.

No, the problems with this particular subplot as written, are at least threefold. As I wrote earlier, "For one thing it's fanwankery, pure and simple. For another, it shrinks the universe and introduces a level of "convenience" that stretches credulity beyond the breaking point. Then of course, to top it off, there's the fact that a junk dealer's slave would have no need for a droid specifically designed for etiquette/protocol and translating over six million languages."

Like Leia and Luke being brothers. Oh, almost forgot. That's OT so it's okay.

Now who's hitting the strawman? ;) In my defence, although I'm rather a fan of ROTJ, nevertheless I've always contended that the Luke-Leia sibling relationship is absurdly stupid and fanwakery on nearly the same level as all the inbred universe-shrinking of the PT.

There's a good reason most of us OT fans/"PT bashers" consider ROTJ to be the weakest of the OT...

Akwat Kbrana said:

No, for the analogy to make sense he would have had to find a disassembled lexicon which he carefully pieced together into perfect working order, only so his illiterate mother could use it as a paperweight. Which is ridiculous.

You are right about the pieces, but it's

Akwat Kbrana said:

As far as we know, he somehow specifically set out to built a protocol droid to help his mother, presumably with her ordinary day-to-day activities. Which, again, is absurd.

How?

Akwat Kbrana said:

For another, it shrinks the universe and introduces a level of "convenience" that stretches credulity beyond the breaking point.

I'm sorry but "convenience that stretches credulity" is something that happened in every episode of the saga. I don't think that can be raised as an argument.

Akwat Kbrana said:

Then of course, to top it off, there's the fact that a junk dealer's slave would have no need for a droid specifically designed for etiquette/protocol and translating over six million languages."

If a protocol droid can do what he wants, who cares if it's protocol or astromech? Speaking of astromech, why would Luke need R2 on a farm? To fix vaporators? It's the same thing.

Akwat Kbrana said:

Now who's hitting the strawman? ;) In my defence, although I'm rather a fan of ROTJ, nevertheless I've always contended that the Luke-Leia sibling relationship is absurdly stupid and fanwakery on nearly the same level as all the inbred universe-shrinking of the PT.

The "universe-shrinking" started with TESB.

Akwat Kbrana said:

There's a good reason most of us OT fans/"PT bashers" consider ROTJ to be the weakest of the OT...

Yet it's part of the beloved (by me too) OT. And it doesn't mean the other two have only small faults.

He compares the prequels to Citizen Kane...

AND IT MAKES SENSE!

I just died a little.

That was glorious!

Thanks to these three perfect summations, I never have to watch the prequels again.

As with the other two prequels, right on the money!

Again, another way to stress the point of how Lucas COULD have made three good movies IF he had spent less money on special effects and computers and more money on people around him to tell him "No, George, I think this won't work at all"; to say nothing about scripts completed in mere weeks or months or whatever. I'm no expert in movie making, but I think even Cletus the slack jawed yokel would know that you don't write a script in, say, 6 weeks and have it come out any good.

This guy has good observation---nearly all the dialogue scenes in ROTS were people who were either walking(slowly) against an obvious blu/green screen backing(and usually not interacting with that background)---or  they were sitting down!

Now back to the real star wars-

*shoves in 1982 star wars vhs cassette in machine*

His critiques of these films run so deep - I am not sure how any fanedit can address the problems he finds, the ones which are clearly at the core of the problem with these films. Any thoughts on that?

I remember the first time I watched AOTC, about halfway through the film I noticed that the entire movie was organized into scenes as follows:

• wild CGI action/explosions with no dialogue
• two or three people sitting and talking
• wild CGI action/explosions with no dialogue
• two or three people sitting and talking
• wild CGI action/explosions with no dialogue
• two or three etc. etc. etc.

Once I noticed this, it became really difficult to watch the film because this pattern was so distracting.  Watching RLM's review of ROTS, I now understand how this pattern emerged.