@_,,,^..^,,, - That's pretty much what I thought. Short of a quick and dirty DVD encoding from your capture, there wouldn't be much point.
A straight upscale would pretty much look the same as an SD encoding upscaled by your BD player or TV.
And I do like grain, but not grain plates. It's not the grain per se that I want to see, it's that a noise filter hasn't been applied.
Once the grain is gone I see no reason to artificially add it back. I'll definitely be grabbing your release once I clear some HDD space. Like I said, last I saw I thought you had found an error you were going to fix and re-release over. I must have hallucinated that.
I'll probably be adding it to the front page as the recommended version once I (get on to(?) my lazy butt and) make the next update.
Dr. M
Big question: How's the blu-ray release for "Bedknobs & Broomsticks"?
I've read some of the reviews on Amazon that it's the original theatrical version and all of the horrible dubbed scenes were removed, but I'm not entirely sure (here's hoping that "Nobody's Problems" is remove as well). Also wondering if "Portobello Road" on the blu-ray is also the theatrical version and not the extended version?
B&B, according to all reviews I read, is the theatrical cut. The material that was restored for the extended version looked quite poor on DVD, it wasn't good enough to use for a BD.
I have mixed emotions since those cut scenes were after the final cut. I'd like to see them re-restore if they can in the future, but it is nice to have the old version I'm used to again.
I'd say get the BD if you like the old pre-restoration version but save your DVD.
Dr. M
Most if not all of those scenes are in the extras on the Blu Ray in HD. They certainly could have made a seamless branching version if they really wanted to.
Where were you in '77?
Doctor M said:
Pocahontas and on, I don't think there are any issues to worry about.
well, just browsing again in the internet and searching about Disney films.
To tell you the truth, I prefer the DVDs that retain the grain, even if they are compressed.
They look much more cinematic to me.
Here in the NTSC DVD of Hunchback, the grain is still visible, but on the Bluray it's non-existent.
(strange, my PAL DVD, isn't as good as this NTSC DVD, it looks a bit de-grained. I guess it's the compression)
NTSC DVD vs. Bluray
By the way, I don't understand why HDTV versions have grain and Blurays don't.
If they wanted the HD to look grainless, why they retained it when they showed it on TV?
Anyway, that means that grainy HD versions exist, and I hope they will be released when the new format (4K) comes along.
It's a tricky one and I'm really not able to speak authoritatively.
My understanding is that when you are talking digital sources (such as the CAPS animated films) being transferred to modern film stock, there is little to no need for the animators to 'compensate' in color or style like they did in early films.
So while HDTV and old film prints may have grain, there has been no need for Disney to actually scrub or clean them for BD since the masters do not have grain. As a result the film transfers in all likelihood look nearly identical to what the animators see on their computers.
So while I do like grain where appropriate, these films haven't been altered when being transferring digital to digital (like CG animated films).
As far as HDTV prints having grain, they versions created for HDTV broadcast. Since HDTV existed before Blu-ray, they are usually struck from film masters because it's cheaper and hey it's just TV.
Dr. M
Yes, I didn't suggest that they scrabbed grain.
I used the word "de-grained" in comparison with the film print.
I understand that they originally didn't have grain.
However still, when i watch a Bluray I would like to watch it as a film, as it was projected at cinema WITH grain, and not as a video file as the animators saw it on their computers.
By the way, here's some comparisons of HDTV vs. Bluray from Lady and the tramp!
The HDTV looks exquisite!!!
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=9957252&postcount=364
Doesn't the BLuray look ugly to you?
I don't know how they do it, but the lines seem like they have retained the grain, and it has been wiped off of all the rest.
Does anyone know of any wider HDTV version?
I have a confusion though about something.
Hunchback has clearly grain in the DVD, meaning coming from the film print.
Also Mulan has grain in the HDTV:
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/98355
Pocahontas DVD doesn't seem to have grain (as the HDTV too).
So, what's the story here?
They transfered to DVD and HDTV the film prints of Hunchback and Mulan but not Pocahontas?
edit: Does anyone have the Gold Collection DVD? Maybe that one is grainy?
edit2: oh, just found a review that says it's grainy.
And i realised that my PAL dvd has the Gold collection transfer. Well, it looks like it's grainy but I am not exactly sure as it has a very bad compression. I mean it's not evident like it is in Hunchback. There, it is clear that there is grain.
10th Anniversary DVD vs. Bluray:
Here, since I love grain, a database for the CAPS and on films.
I think we agree that all the films pre-Beauty and the Beast had grain in their respective DVDs, before restorations.
Now, for the others:
(I have written a "?" in some, because due to the bluriness of the DVD I'm not so sure.)
So, it seems only Hunchback, Hercules (?) and Mulan have grainy-filmic versions around.
EDIT: By the way, I just watched the HDTV version of Hunchback of Notre Dame and it was an EXPERIENCE!
I know 99% of people don't like grain at all, but to my eyes the Bluray looks flat, lifeless and without depth, like any recent TV cartoon while the grainy version is full of life, organic, cinematic and multi-dimensional. It was the closest to seeing a 35mm film print, and it was amazing!
That's the first I've heard of a Lady and the Tramp HDTV version. I agree. the BD is just wrong.
Nice screenshots, titanic.
As far as grain on CAPS films, the point is the presence of grain or not doesn't indicate any loss of quality from the source. However, the absence of grain in earlier films usually includes a loss of some detail and depth.
If you want grain on your CAPS BD's, it's simple enough to re-encode them adding grain to the image. It would be just as accurate.
Dr. M
Doctor M said:
That's the first I've heard of a Lady and the Tramp HDTV version. I agree. the BD is just wrong.
Nice screenshots, titanic.
As far as grain on CAPS films, the point is the presence of grain or not doesn't indicate any loss of quality from the source. However, the absence of grain in earlier films usually includes a loss of some detail and depth.
If you want grain on your CAPS BD's, it's simple enough to re-encode them adding grain to the image. It would be just as accurate.
Yes, i understand that loss of grain doesn't indicate loss of detail in the CAPS films.
Oh, I hadn't thought of adding grain, although it wouldn't be the same as the original film print, and still may seem artificial..
Well, there are exceptions.
I believe the CAPS files needed alterations before/during the transfer to film, as evident with the light, but noticeable changes in The Lion King, and the massive changes to colors and contrast in Beauty And The Beast.
The makers of BATB said that the look of the original version was because of a faulty transfer problem, which sounds like BS, because I can't imagine them in 1991, seeing the "faulty" transfer and saying "Oh, well, let's release it anyway and wait almost 2 decades to fix it"...
A digital master made using a film print for color correction should do, as those films were meant for 35mm screenings, but that was only the final phase of a completely digital rendering process.
Films made before 1990 (Up to and including The Little Mermaid) were indeed finished on film, so those should have grain.
Thanks for the info.
By the way, both of those HD grainy prints of Mulan and Hunchback come come from the Japanese channel WOWOW.
I wonder if they have or have shown other film prints too of Disney films.
If only they had a film print of Beauty and the Beast!
I would faint at the idea!
Add me to the list that prefers the look of Hunchback as seen on WOWOW. Something about the BR just seems dull to me, and it's not just the lack of grain. Can't say the same for the DVD, though; the DVD seems like it's riddled with edge enhancement.
Wow, I think Lady & the Tramp might look the worst out of all Disney's reduxes of their older films. Honest to goodness looks like a different film.
A Goon in a Gaggle of 'em
Will be interesting to see what they air in the future!
Where were you in '77?
SilverWook said:
Will be interesting to see what they air in the future!
Let's see if they use the BD transfer or an untouched film print. This shall be interesting.
For anyone interested I just found a 720p HD full screen version of Fox and the Hound! (the Bluray was cropped)
It seems better than the NTSC DVD:
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/117760
Although the titles seems to be in German (is it?)
It doesn't seem so in the first comparison, but the grain has been preserved:
I'm not sure though if the English audio is perfectly synced to the image. Haven't seen it yet. Just seen the screenshots.
Also I found an HDTV 1080i version, but that one seems to be 3 minutes shorter and i don't know about its quality.
edit: Oh, it's shorter because it's 25fps, and I think they say it doesn't have good quality.
Really interesting; I prefer the HDTV color grading.
But I'm curious to watch also the 1080i version, and possibly make a comparison between it and the 720p.
Sadly my projects are lost due to an HDD crash… 😦 | [Fundamental Collection] thread | blog.spoRv.com | fan preservation forum: fanres.com
TCM ran a widescreen version of Darby O' Gill and The Little People last weekend. This is a film Disney previously insisted was shown full frame in theaters in the late 50's. (And has been full frame in every home video incarnation.) This is utter blarney of course. ;)
Several people picked up on the fact this airing had a redubbed soundtrack that tones down the thicker Irish accents. This alternate dub is also vintage. Here's hoping the eventual Blu Ray keeps the original mix as an option at the very least.
Where were you in '77?
Also there are an HDTV and a WEB-DL (probably itunes) version of Black Cauldron.
here is how they compare. (i don't know how they compare to the DVD though).
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/7253/picture:0
I think I prefer the web version.
@SilverWook - Was Darby cropped to widescreen or was there actually more image?
This is the first I've heard of the dubbed soundtrack. Was it used on the DVD?
Edit: Wikipedia says the 'easier to understand' dub was used for DVD releases. I'm thinking the TV version is some fluke.
Dr. M
Some screenshot comparisons of Alice in Wonderland Bluray and HDTV.
Well, unfortunately the HDTV doesn't preserve the grain, but i think it is evident how the Bluray colors are way saturated.
Doctor M said:
@SilverWook - Was Darby cropped to widescreen or was there actually more image?
This is the first I've heard of the dubbed soundtrack. Was it used on the DVD?
Edit: Wikipedia says the 'easier to understand' dub was used for DVD releases. I'm thinking the TV version is some fluke.
From what was said over at the HTF, this soundtrack hasn't seen the light of day for a while.
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/topic/339493-darby-ogill-and-the-little-people-on-tcm/
I only get TCM's standard definition feed, and it is frequently screwed up by whatever automation they use to distinguish between 16:9 and 4:3 video. (Gone With The Wind aired windowboxed recently.) It gets tripped up by movies with less wide ratios for some reason. Darby was unfortunately cropped for me. :(
There is a remastered LD with digital audio out there, in case Disney cocks things up again. ;)
Where were you in '77?
@ Doctor M
Again, kudos! on your thread! Laserdiscs are new to me and their relative value over updated digital versions continually amazes me. :O
Whenever you have opportunity, I wonder if you would include, in your exhaustive list, mentions of when laserdiscs are available but are not better sources, or are available but have not been evaluated?
@Spaced Ranger- I haven't watched a physical laserdisc myself in years. Most of what I know is from discussions here and on other forums.
I have tried to include laserdisc info when I know it, and lddb.com is a good place just to find out about different versions that were released.
Dr. M
I remember seeing shots in this thread or another of Aladdin with the tell tale missing lines of a DNR pass, was I crazy.
I know some CAPS movies has the same