Info: Recommended Editions of Disney Animated (and Partially Animated) Features — Page 2

Depends on which year the Pinocchio box set is from.  The 1987 CAV Laserdisc/1985 VHS is a different master than the 1993 LD (which is the master used for the first DVD).

The laserdisc box set should use the 1993 remastered edition; but I don't know if it has DNR applied as the first DVD.

What about the Derann Super8 film releases?

On old transfers of cartoons, it was pretty common paractice to do a vblur on them as part of the transfer to thicken up the lines to stop them 'thrumming' which was a line ending up on only one of the TV scanlines. Due to TV being interlaced the cartoon lines would appear to jiggle or blink in and out, so various blur methods to thicken the lines up was pretty common.

I kind-of wish we could find 35s of everything.

Until then, hopefully between myself and drf we can scrounge up the best sources on disc.

poita said:

On old transfers of cartoons, it was pretty common paractice to do a vblur on them as part of the transfer to thicken up the lines to stop them 'thrumming' which was a line ending up on only one of the TV scanlines. Due to TV being interlaced the cartoon lines would appear to jiggle or blink in and out, so various blur methods to thicken the lines up was pretty common.

That seems to clarify things a bunch.  Similarly I'm thinking the trend towards duller whites is because most modern TVs are LCDs set to some uncalibrated bright mode.

Molly said:

I kind-of wish we could find 35s of everything.

Until then, hopefully between myself and drf we can scrounge up the best sources on disc.

There is a good 35 of The Great Mouse Detective going cheap right now.

I think the home cinema Super8 releases might be worth a look. Most are probably pre-tampering and the colour looks pretty good. There are short digests available to use as reference as well.

These are from the Dwarves Dilemma 200ft digest.

e.g. 

I don't know if this has been linked before, but here is a great analysis and insightful explanation of the 'restoration' of Dumbo for the 60th and 70th Anniversary: http://colorfulanimationexpressions.blogspot.com/2010/05/dumbo-for-our-times.html

In light of it, I'm currently leaning towards the in-between "Big Top Edition" release.  It might lack a bit of vibrancy you'd expect, but it just might be the least messed with.  I'm having trouble making that firm, since I can find few comparison screenshots.

Also, not certain yet, and this is a crazy weekend for me so I'm doing as little as possible right now, but I'm seriously considering removing any Diamond Edition recommendations for films older than 15-20 years.  Disney seems determined to make all their films look no older.

That'll roll back the Bambi recommendation :

Platinum:

Diamond:

I don't know if what we see there is aging, film artifacts or brush strokes, but I do know I see lines disappearing.  The Diamond looks better in theory, but the more we learn about the Diamond series, the less benefit of doubt I'm giving them.

I'll probably back off the Alice in Wonderland Diamond recommendation as well.

Finally, knowing a bit more about things, I'm thinking of reinstating my Little Mermaid preservation as first choice.  (The Dumbo article above does mention that early DVDs had the contrast pushed.  Between that, the test screenshot I made above, and poita's vblur comment, I have to think the Platinum isn't as awful as we first thought.  We'll have to wait for the Diamond edition to have something to really despise.

Comments?  Dissension?  Those in favor?

Btw, it appears for the moment Cinderella non-Lowry has a seed.

Dumbo: Ah, BD versus Big Top Edition DVD: http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film2/DVDReviews50/dumbo_blu-ray.htm

Grumble, I hate all 3 releases.  I'm prepared to recommend none.

Edit: Okay, confirmation about Disney rotoscoping out characters, adjusting separately, freezing the background and recompositing.

The blu-rays may look beautiful and represent a version of the film, but they are divorced from film as a medium.  They are the movies as if they were made today.

In the next update I will remove pretty much all Diamond Editions (and most BD's of early films).

Doctor M said:

Edit: Okay, confirmation about Disney rotoscoping out characters, adjusting separately, freezing the background and recompositing.

WTF?!

ETA: If this is what they're doing, that's tantamount to reanimating the film... that's even worse than Lowry destruction. Makes it all the much more important to ensure that un-screwed with editions of all their movies are out there and remain out there, instead of being replaced with...ugh, words fail me.

Doctor M said:

Edit: Okay, confirmation about Disney rotoscoping out characters, adjusting separately, freezing the background and recompositing.

@bkev - Unfortunately, that comment probably encompasses all restorations from Disney done in the last 12-13 years.  (Post-Lowry?)  I wouldn't think this method was used on any CAPS based or newer films.  (Those are messed with a whole different way).

It's a bit of a muddle.  Wikipedia claims Lowry restored Snow White, Sleeping Beauty and The Little Mermaid among others, but I believe Disney restored Little Mermaid themselves.  I think Lowry may have done some work on earlier releases of these films or (gasp) Wikipedia might be wrong.

This article put me on to it: http://colorfulanimationexpressions.blogspot.com/2008/06/thinking-about-digital-restoration-of.html

What bothers me most is the technique of separating the characters from the backgrounds in order to remove grain and lighting inconsistencies (see 2^nd disc of "Sleeping Beauty"). This results in a CG-compositing look that draws attention to the absolute rigor of the backgrounds. As the ever changing grain rightfully may be seen as a flaw inherent to the medium, it nevertheless helped to keep the image alive. Without the grain, the characters' color areas are even flatter looking and the movie seems to freeze whenever a cel is held for several frames (quite often in "Dalmatians"). This ultimately draws our attention to the artificiality of the animation instead of letting us engage with the story.

Googling around, I found the 2003 Sleeping Beauty bonus mentioned above: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-z0o26HD40

Apparently they went through this AGAIN in 2008 for a 4k transfer.

Molly is bang on.  They are now reanimating these cartoons (I don't even want to use the word "films" anymore).

I'm trying to decide what to do about this guide now.  Some minor clean up is one thing, even the occasional odd color choice (since older transfers have probably discolored worse), but when you remove all signs that these films were painted on cells and photographed to film, then what are they?

I'm going with 100% pre-digital-restoration LDs all the way.

IDK what to do about Snow White though. The only LD version that exists was scanned into a computer. Can we trust it?

I think we go to the films instead of trusting LDs or DVDs.

Derann had access to the Disney negatives to do their transfers, and the Super8 prints are gorgeous as a result and true to the originals as they were done before the computer age could get a look in.

I propose that I purchase the Super8 prints, scan them at 2K to preserve them, then resell them to be able to purchase another print etc. I would likely lose a bit each time, if nothing else just in shipping, handling and dollar fluctuations etc.

So I'm willing to do this, but if anyone would like to help out with costs, it would be much appreciated. Derann made a lot of these (for sale in Europe mostly, they didn't have US release rights) so we can put feelers out and may even be able to borrow prints or swap them etc.

What do you think?

Better than nothing.

If we could get 16s and 35s even better, but preserving the 8s would probably be a good help too.

Black Diamond releases were all pre-restoration, except for "Proto-WDMC" Fantasia and Pinocchio, não?  Though the latter has an earlier Black Diamond version as well.  That would suffice for the time being, probably.

This guy just sold a Snow White and Pinocchio

http://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Adventures-of-Ichabod-and-Mr-Toad-color-sound-Super-8mm-Derann-print-/190852143417?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT&nma=true&si=pSPOahBNQjKMiTk6YCAgZnZUO7M%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

If someone in the US wanted to ask the seller if he could pass on their contact to the buyers. I've done this before and often the seller is happy just to pass your email address to the buyer. You could then invite them here :)

Would these Super 8s look all that great, though, to think about it?

The Ken Super 8s of Star Wars and ESB looked a lot worse than *EP VHS*, so thick with grain, and I think Puggo said they were sub-24 fps?

How useful would a Super 8 be compared to a Black Diamond VHS, Beta or LD, really?

The super8 versions have the correct colour, correct gamma and no blur applied.

They were taken straight from the original Disney negative and graded to match the theatrical prints. The LDs etc. were taken from ?? and graded to suit CRT televisions and resolutions, so they have a vertical blur applied, totally different gamma and hue adjustment to suit NTSC standards and brightened. Hard to say what other changes may have been done in the telecine process, the lighting definitely is messed with.

The Super8 prints should also have about twice the resolution of a LD, but will have extra grain from the Super8 film itself. Find two copies and average them though and most of the Super8 grain will disappear and you will be left with just the original negative grain.

There is no comparison between these and the Ken prints.

OK, poita. So how do we get this going?

So you can actually get good results at 480p from a Derann Super 8?

The Ken Super 8s are the only Super 8s, admittedly, that I've seen.  I wonder if there's any clips out there?

Molly said:

So you can actually get good results at 480p from a Derann Super 8?

The Ken Super 8s are the only Super 8s, admittedly, that I've seen.  I wonder if there's any clips out there?

You can get excellent results at 720p.

You can get good results at 1080p if you average two scans of two Super8 prints of the same movie.

I've seen how well Super8 can resolve. Don't let the few Super8 preservations that are floating around influence you.

>mfw

I thought even 16mm didn't resolve well at 1080.