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I really hope that George Lucas restore the original han & greedo scene from ANH (the one where han shoots first). Also take out the white boxes that we see when a ship fly's by. And also I hope the dvd of the star wars trilogy has a great sound mix.
Kenneth Kraly Jr.
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Originally posted by: Rebel Scumb
I like the new ending to Jedi, however i agree the luke scream is awful.

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The problem with the confrontation scene (number 1) is obviously the way Han Solo jerks his head Abruptly and not so much that Greedo shot first. "


But more distressing is that it deflates Hans character Arc. The whole point is he is suppose to seem like a guy who cannot be trusted when we first meet him, a shoot first ask questions later kind of guy. We hear him guarntee to Luke and Ben that he can get them past the empire, then a moment later discover he dumps his cargo at the first sign of imperial cruisers. By having Greedo shoot first, it makes Han less of an anti-hero, and also makes absolutely no sense, given that we see Han drawing his pistol under the table (if he was not going to shoot, then why?). And of course there is the most obvious problem that it makes no sense that Greedo would miss from that distance. I could see if they had added in Han kicking the table which would hit Greedo and make him miss. But they didn't. He just missed from point blank range.


I was thinking about this earlier and I think I figured out why Lucas changed the Han/Greedo scene. I think Lucas made up his mind early on that he wanted to reinsert the Jabba scene into the film. Doing so means that the Han/Greedo encounter had to change. Greedo was threatening to bring Han to Jabba to collect the bounty on his head. That was a BIG threat, so Han shot Greedo to escape. That all works fine in the Original Trilogy.

BUT in the Special Edition, Han can't shoot Greedo and then bump into Jabba later on without jerking out his blaster and popping some rounds. It wouldn't make dramatic sense to shoot first against Greedo so that he won't be taken to Jabba, but then gleefully converse with Jabba as if nothing happened later on.

Or maybe I'm overanalyzing. Even if I'm wrong, Greedo shooting first doesn't work and neither does the Han/Jabba scene.

- Trentobi
http://www.blissnet.org
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I think he is gone. I haven't seen someone run away that fast since Trooper and I run that one guy for making fun of the PT. That was funny what was his name again, do you remeber Bossk?
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Can't remember it offhand. And I miss the bickering with Jackas... err... Idiot Basher, too.
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
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Kevin A
Webmaster/Primary Cynic
kapgar.typepad.com
kapgar.com
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Originally posted by: Luke30
I really hope that George Lucas restore the original han & greedo scene from ANH (the one where han shoots first). .



According to a recent GL interview, Greedo ALWAYS shot first, and it was just an editing mistake that made it look otherwise.

[COUGH]Whatever![/COUGH]

I like how he simotaneously denies Han shooting first (like we're idiots or something) and at the same time blames his ex-wife for the confusion.


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BUT in the Special Edition, Han can't shoot Greedo and then bump into Jabba later on without jerking out his blaster and popping some rounds. It wouldn't make dramatic sense to shoot first against Greedo so that he won't be taken to Jabba, but then gleefully converse with Jabba as if nothing happened later on.


Even if thats the case, the change doesn't solve this problem, which is yet another reason why the Jabba scene should of remained on the cutting room floor (or Avid delete bin).
And I dance. And I sing.
And I'm a monkey, in a long line of kings.
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For once I agree with you guys that Greedo always shooting first is total bullshit. It was so technologically bad. Most of the changes made the movie more advanced Greedo shooting first made the movie less advanced. Plus I like Han just shooting him it makes him more cool. Though I disagree that it destroyed Hans character thats going too far. By the way of course he would be nice to Jabba he is a warlord with armed troops Han can be a badass without being stupid. Ign.com says that they will restore this scene for the 2004 DVDs God I hope they are right since it is the only change I truly dislike. Then again there are 300 other changes I loved so I can't complain.
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When the SE was first announced, I thought it sounded like a good idea. And if he had just cleaned-up the picture and fixed the fx and sound, I would have been happy. That really would have been the ultimate Star Wars for me.

But those other changes were just terrible and significantly alter the flow of the films to the point that the unrefined originals are a superior cut of the film.
The original Star Wars trilogy: Our cultural history deserves to be preserved and should be available to the public like all great works of art!
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This is my first look at this forum and I suppose I come under the category of a whiny 40 something as the "delightful" idiot basher describes. I'm just disappointed that I can't see the movie in the form I saw in 1977. To me the SE's are over fussy especially ANH and as has been mentioned above don't seem to flow as they did.

It's a shame but I gues we're stuck with the SE's and will have to make do with the original VHS or versions ripped onto DVD to get that original buzz.

Frank Zappa remastered some of his back catalogue replacing the original drums and bass with digitised ones and the result was ghastly ..I guess George has done the same.

"There's no mystical force controls my destiny"
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Originally posted by: Rebel Scumb

BUT in the Special Edition, Han can't shoot Greedo and then bump into Jabba later on without jerking out his blaster and popping some rounds. It wouldn't make dramatic sense to shoot first against Greedo so that he won't be taken to Jabba, but then gleefully converse with Jabba as if nothing happened later on.

Even if thats the case, the change doesn't solve this problem, which is yet another reason why the Jabba scene should of remained on the cutting room floor (or Avid delete bin).


I agree. I'm not defending the Greedo shooting first thing at all. I'm just saying that reinstating the scene with Jabba necessitated a tweak in the Greedo scene. Realistically you're absolutely right completely, the Han/Greedo scene should've been left unchanged and the scene with Jabba left in the trash can... especially since Han speaks some of the exact same dialog to Jabba that he had just spoken to Greedo with the same phrasing and emphasised words ("Even I get boarded sometimes. You think I had a choice?!"). The fact that the CGI Jabba looked like crap only strengthens our case. Plus it doesn't really add anything to the story. Han walks into the scene owing Jabba money and afraid for his life, while Jabba walks in expecting a pay off soon. Han walks out of the scene owing Jabba money and afraid for his life., while Jabba walks out expecting a pay off soon. Nothing changes, nothing happens, it's just bad bad bad bad bad bad bad and should've been left out. These two scenes are my only gripes with ANH.

- Trentobi
http://www.blissnet.org
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Honestly if these changes were gone from the SE I'd have no complaints and I can't say with a 100% confidences I would of become so passionately involved with this cause.

-Greedo shooting first
-the jabba scene
-the censoring of the blast hits aboard the deathstar
-Vader's changed line in ESB
-the changing of the "you're lucky you don't taste very good" in ESB
-Luke's scream in cloud city

even the new musical number in Jabba's palace doesn't really bug me, though I prefer the old song and I don't like that guy with the big mouth, but if that was the worst thing about the SE I could live with it.


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Originally posted by: jimbo
By the way of course he would be nice to Jabba he is a warlord with armed troops Han can be a badass without being stupid.



Would you purposely step on a warlord's tail, especially when he's already angry with you?

Why didn't they just cutaway to Boba Fett for a few seconds to solve that problem?

And of course there's the terrible part where Harrison ford actually passes through Jabba's arm. Yeesh!


Imagine if all the time/energy/money used to create this pointless Jabba scene (better suited to the deleted scenes section of a dvd) was instead put into fixing the lightsabers, and cleaining up all the matte lines in all the movies instead of just some in the first film.
And I dance. And I sing.
And I'm a monkey, in a long line of kings.
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Good point about the tail. Even if you dislike those changes there are hundreds more changes that can not be argued against. I liked Vaders change of line. I thought it was cooler. I also did not mind or like the Jabba scene and Lukes scream. Greedo Shooting first is the only change I truly disliked but that is so small.
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Originally posted by: Rebel Scumb
Honestly if these changes were gone from the SE I'd have no complaints and I can't say with a 100% confidences I would of become so passionately involved with this cause.

-Greedo shooting first
-the jabba scene
-the censoring of the blast hits aboard the deathstar
-Vader's changed line in ESB
-the changing of the "you're lucky you don't taste very good" in ESB
-Luke's scream in cloud city

I agree about the Greedo/Jabba stuff... but the other things are pretty inconsequential. Nit pick much? I prefered Vader's original "bring my shuttle" line over the new one, but they both say pretty much the same thing... one is just more verbose than the other. Not a big deal.

- Trentobi
http://www.blissnet.org
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Vaders new line "Alert my Star Destroyer to prepare for my arrival" sounds better for me.
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Originally posted by: obi-wan trentobi
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Originally posted by: Rebel Scumb
Honestly if these changes were gone from the SE I'd have no complaints and I can't say with a 100% confidences I would of become so passionately involved with this cause.

-Greedo shooting first
-the jabba scene
-the censoring of the blast hits aboard the deathstar
-Vader's changed line in ESB
-the changing of the "you're lucky you don't taste very good" in ESB
-Luke's scream in cloud city

I agree about the Greedo/Jabba stuff... but the other things are pretty inconsequential. Nit pick much? I prefered Vader's original "bring my shuttle" line over the new one, but they both say pretty much the same thing... one is just more verbose than the other. Not a big deal.

- Trentobi


I agree its a small thing, and on its own it would just be a minor bothersome thing, but strictly speaking this is the list of what bugs me. That Vader line also leads into the whole Vader going back to the SD added footage, which screws up the flow of the music. "Bring my shuttle" Was just delivered in such an awesome way, Vader sounds so pissed off about losing LUke.

And I dance. And I sing.
And I'm a monkey, in a long line of kings.
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Originally posted by: obi-wan trentobi
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Originally posted by: Rebel Scumb
Honestly if these changes were gone from the SE I'd have no complaints and I can't say with a 100% confidences I would of become so passionately involved with this cause.

-Greedo shooting first
-the jabba scene
-the censoring of the blast hits aboard the deathstar
-Vader's changed line in ESB
-the changing of the "you're lucky you don't taste very good" in ESB
-Luke's scream in cloud city

I agree about the Greedo/Jabba stuff... but the other things are pretty inconsequential. Nit pick much? I prefered Vader's original "bring my shuttle" line over the new one, but they both say pretty much the same thing... one is just more verbose than the other. Not a big deal.

- Trentobi


I agree its a small thing, and on its own it would just be a minor bothersome thing, but strictly speaking this is the list of what bugs me. That Vader line also leads into the whole Vader going back to the SD added footage, which screws up the flow of the music. "Bring my shuttle" Was just delivered in such an awesome way, Vader sounds so pissed off about losing LUke.

And I dance. And I sing.
And I'm a monkey, in a long line of kings.
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I don't like Vader's new line because it doesn't sound like James Earl Jones. I also don't like the whole scene of him going out to his Star Destroyer because it destroys the flow of the action. Compare both versions side by side and you'll see what I mean.

Luke's scream is also terrible because it is the same scream the Emporer let out when Vader tossed him down the Death Star chasm. That does not make Empire better.

Patrick
"When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk." - Tuco from The Good, The Bad And The Ugly
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The line was done by James Earl Jones.
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Here y'all go, courtesy of IMDb...

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For the Special Edition, Vader's "Bring my shuttle" line has been replaced with, "Alert my Star Destroyer to prepare for my arrival". Sound designer Ben Burtt has confirmed that this is actually a line performed by James Earl Jones that and recorded for use in Star Wars (1977), but never used.


Probably sounds bad because it wasn't used and, therefore, likely deteriorated over time.
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
-------------------------
Kevin A
Webmaster/Primary Cynic
kapgar.typepad.com
kapgar.com
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My attitude is quite simple. I don't like the special editions. I think the space scenes are an improvement and that is about all. I just don't like them. Now, GL is attempting to remove all memory of the OT, and claim that the SE IS starwars. But I don't LIKE the SE. Therefore despite a lifetime of fandom I find myself in the logical position of -not likeing starwars-. Now what the hell sense does that make? If the SE is the only starwars then strangely that does make sense. My feeling therefore, and I think it is shared by most people on this board, is that the SE is a NEW EDITION of starwars and not STARWARS in it's entirity. I would like the option of choice. It's a pretty reasonable request I think. I just want to see the films that I grew up with, not some half arsed, poor quality ill considered update.

I might not mind so much if it had been done WELL and sensitively, but it wasn't. In 10 years time the OT will still look like a damn good attempt at realism while the SE will look like what it is, and experimentation in technology that didn't even begin to look realistic till a good 5 years afterwards. That has been my beef with CGI so far, puppets and models actually look better in alot of cases. It is all boys playing with toys.
CGI really does seem to be comeing into it's own now, and I think in a number of years it will be pretty hard to tell the difference. Now if GL wants to mess around with SW at that time then I may even like the results, but I will always want to see MY starwars, the Original starwars that fans have loved and cherished for the last 25 years. What if GL said he hated SW altogether and wanted to burn the originals and recall all the videos and DVD's. Would you be so keen to defend his rights as the artist then?
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Tough for you. Computer generated images always look better then puppets. Always puppets don't move correctly. For example the puppet dewbacks I didn't even realize they were creatures. The digital ones I noticed were creatures.
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Welcome anaphalaxis.

In light of your comments I hope you will join us in writing Lucas about preserving the original OT and making it available to the public. We must remind him of the value of historical art and culture. We don't bury our art history or replace it with something new, we treasure our history. We study it and learn from its natural growth, its changes from era to era. The original Star Wars trilogy is that art. It must be cherished and valued.
We have to convince him that there is artistic and creative value in preserving the originals for everyone now, and for future generations to see and learn from. I think that is something that everyone, including George might agree with.

George Lucas
c/o Lucasfilm Ltd.
P.O. Box 2009
San Rafael, CA 94912
U.S.A.

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Jimbo, puppets have been delighting audiences from around the world for generations, and even Yoda was a puppet when everyone fell in love with him.

CGI is only now beginning to do what puppetry has successfully done and won muliple awards for for decades. That is to breathe life into fantastic creatures and simply make you believe.

If you prefer CGI that's fine, its simply a different form of art, but they don't "always look better than puppets" and in fact CGI has become so common place that no ever believes they are real anyway, especially if they are done poorly versus being done well (take Jar Jar versus Golem).



The original Star Wars trilogy: Our cultural history deserves to be preserved and should be available to the public like all great works of art!
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Err... Jimbo, cgi fx from 1997 don't look better than puppets (I'm sure you don't mean to make us believe the cgi Jabba from ANH looks better than the puppet in RotJ). Sure, cgi allowed a much larger variety of movements for the Dewbacks. But imho, they overdid it with the Dewbacks movementwise, they just didn't seem like tamed beasts of burden anymore (It's also pretty scary to see that Jurassic Park's 1993 cgi dinos look a lot better and act/move far more believable than those Dewbacks 4 years later).

And don't get me started about 'correct movements'. Take a close look at the cgi stromtroopers in ANH, they are poorly animated and do not withstand any comparison with a real actor clad in real stormtrooper armor.

Just face it, Lucas should have left the originals alone until after the prequels. 1997s experimental cgi FX just weren't good enough. The cgi looks fake on many occasions especially the 'stormtroopers finding the escape pod' scene from ANH shows the discrepancy of real footage and cgi footage of 97 and how bad they mix up together.

I think anaphalaxis hit the nail on the head with his statements of the SE being nothing more than a poorly executed cgi fx experiment with the audience as guinea pigs. I mean, take a look at those fx, they really aren't up to par of what ILM was capable to do with Jurassic Park.
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We are suppose to get a newer Computer Generated Jabba for the Ultimate Editions. Even so the current digital Jabba is not that bad but yeah it could have been better. The Puppet Jabba didn't go anywhere how hard could that be. Personally I think that the animation of the dewbacks was fine and doesn't need changing. Like I said I didn't even know the puppet dewbacks were suppose to be creatures until Lucas pointed it out.