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I can think of a ton of DVDs that I am awaiting with greater anticipation. But that shouldn't surprise anyone since I'm not planning to buy the OT DVD set.
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
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Kevin A
Webmaster/Primary Cynic
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Originally posted by: Idiot Basher
Now that I've figured out that I'm arguing with a bunch of 40-50 year old cronies this is what I have to say.

1. There is nothing on the Internet about The Ultimate Edition except a possible amount of changes that I have read on TheForce.net which is not all proven and is mostly a fan's wishful thinking.
2. George has never said he was going to do an Ultimate Edition, ever. This is all fan based decreed news spread across the Internet to spread disillusion. What Lucas is going to do is actually make a series based on the time period between Ep's III and IV, the Jedi Purge, which is more believable, and more frequently mentioned on the net. There was talk of a series before TPM even started filming.
3. And if they do do an Ultimate Edition, will you continue to whine? It doesn't matter apparently because he will never release the original's on DVD. All of you should just get over it and realize that your time is over. The 70's have ended, the 80's have come and gone. Quit living in the past. The time is now. The SE's are the final versions and even if they do make an Ultimate Edition, you'll just continue to whine about how different it is from the SE's.
4. You'll buy the DVD's anyway, no matter what you say you know you won't be able to resist. The only way this could work is if you boycott buying the SW DVD's which is less likely to work then this petition. George will never even look at this site. All he cares about his finishing his creation, wether you all like it or not.
5. I actually believe myself that both version should be released together, simply for preferable reference, because one, people like you make every other SW fan look like the stupidest people on the planet, and two, because you wouldn't open your mouths and crap wouldn't come out making SE lovers like myself angry.
6. And that's all I have to say about that.

None of this is meant to offend by the way, Mr. Jay. Go ahead and delete my account if you choose. This is my final word anyway.


According to the digital bits they have actual industry sources that support the existence of Ultimate Editions. I have known for thedigitalbits to be a very reliable site. Lucas has also stated that new scenes were already filmed during production of the prequals to be added into the movies latter. There is also the issue of the fixed lightsabers at the film festival.
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yeah but the fixed lightsabers thing was later proven to be false.

this is one of the key problems with the SE, they go to ridiculous lenghts to create a terrible Jabba scene, yet they can't fix the damn lightsabers?! That would of been my first thing to fix, that terrible part where Obi-wans saber becomes a rod. Or that they fixed some matte lines but not others. Some of the composites in ROTJ stll look awful, and there are still boxes around the space ships in many scenes. So much of what they claimed to have fixed was only done in certain scenes.
And I dance. And I sing.
And I'm a monkey, in a long line of kings.
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How much time elapsed between the point when LFL officially decided to create the SEs and the time when they were released to theaters?
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
-------------------------
Kevin A
Webmaster/Primary Cynic
kapgar.typepad.com
kapgar.com
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The Jabba scene was originally intended for the movie. He filmed this scene expecting to put a stop motion puppet in its place. Also the fixed lightsabers is true. The color timming was enhanced to make the lightsabers appear better but they were not CGI. There was a false rumor there were also CGI clouds but that was bogus. The fixed lightsabers are true however. I agree fixing the lightsabers makes more sense then any Jabba scene but I don't mind that scene. According to the digital bits there will be additional changes in the 2004 DVDs. My guess is we will get fixed lightsabers on the DVD. Possibly more black line removal and hopefully a restored Han and Greedo scene.
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according to AICN, the sabers were not fixed in that version.

as for the jabba scene, I know it was originally shot, But I highly doubt they planned to replace jabba with a creature back in 1976, it was just going to be that guy, and here's why:

1.the guy is in costume

2.Han refers to him as a human being

3.There was no way to technically achieve that shot back then, nor would ILM have any belief they could, its a moving shot with no blue screen and Han walks both infront of and behind Jabba, hell ILM had trouble doing it with digital technology, there is no way they would of shot it the way they did if they intended to sub in a creature afterwards, not in their wildest dreams.

Look at the shot, it would of been impossible.
And I dance. And I sing.
And I'm a monkey, in a long line of kings.
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Probably why it wasn't done.
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If he does do and Ultimate Edition, won't you people just keep whining? I guess I don't understand why this is such a big deal. I guess I'm not a true fan if I'm not selfish and think that everything the director does has to be all about me. Who cares what he wants to accomplish as an artist. He shouldn't change anything because that's the way I like it, even though I didn't create it and he did. It's his child, not mine, so I should be the one to decide what should be done with it. Yeah, that seems logical to me (note the sarcasm).
Shut up
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I was watching "From Star Wars to Jedi: The Making of a Saga" and "Classic Creatures - Return of the Jedi"and there was a rather extensive segment about Jabba the Hutt and what went into designing him. Phil Tippett showed a series of different maquettes that showed the evolution of the Jabba design and he relayed Lucas' comments as the design process went along (i.e. "too human", "too alien")

It's obvious that Lucas was not happy with the Jabba scene as it played out in 1977. Jabba just didn't come off right and the scene was redundant. Lucas took the opportunity in ROTJ to push the Star Wars universe by making Jabba a big alien looking slug, and that was definitely more appropriate.

There was absolutely nothing in the Lucas interviews or anyone else's comments that the Jabba in the first film was supposed to be a slug. Not even Lucas' comments in the documentaries touch on that.
"We're fine, we're all fine down here, now thank you.... How are you?"
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Originally posted by: R2-G2
It's obvious that Lucas was not happy with the Jabba scene as it played out in 1977.

You mean there was something not quite right about an overweight Scotsman in animal pelts? The hell you say!
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
-------------------------
Kevin A
Webmaster/Primary Cynic
kapgar.typepad.com
kapgar.com
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I knew you wouldn't stay away Idiot. I know your type all too well.

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Originally posted by: Idiot Basher
If he does do and Ultimate Edition, won't you people just keep whining?"


No, I'm quite looking forward to the ultimate edition. Everyone is. Nobody had a problem with the Special edition being made. Some like the results others didn't, but in the end nobody really cares. What bothers us is that he is deleting the Original versions which are historically signifigant, and which many of us prefer.

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"I guess I don't understand why this is such a big deal."


Because the OT are three of our favorite movies and we'd like to be able to see them on DVD. In addition its destroying a piece of history, one of the most important achievements in cinema, its also insulting to the ILM artists who created those original FX which were monumental for their time.

Again its the same thing as putting bigger tits on the mona lisa. Its one thing to make a poster of that, or a poster of mona lisa smoking pot, fine, do whatever you want. Its another thing to then burn the original and say that this is the only version.

Why don't we add some electric guitar to all of Beethoven's symphonies while we're at it, and turn the roman collesium into a modern soccer arena?

The OT is old, there's nothing wrong with that. Art should not be updated. If GL makes the OT special edition, or directors cut, or ultimate edition or whatever, it becomes a new movie. They are two seperate pieces of work that represent two different eras and two different sensibilities. THe OV represents GL as a filmmaker from the 70s, the SE represents the GL of the nineties, revisiting his work. A GL who wouldn't have Han shoot greedo in cold blood. Spielberg said if he made close encounters today, it would be totally different because he would never make a movie where a father abandons his family. So should we change CLOSE ENCOUNTERS because Spielberg feels differntly 25 years later? Of course not.Small changes, but changes nonetheless. And in filmmaking these small changes are all important. Look at the attention to detail we see GL taking in the supplements for the PT. Ever little thing is important.

Artist change with time, they mature and grow and evolve, but they should not expres this by changing their old work, but rather by creating new works that represent them in the present.

You can't change the past, and thats what GL is trying to do. He's saying in affect that the OV's never existed and is going out of his way to destroy any record of them.

At a filmfestival where ANH was suppose to represent the 1970s era of film, he would only allow the SE to be shown. Which means he is actually trying to pass off that the SE was made in the 1970s! This is patently absurd since digital technology didn't even exist back then. He refused to give them the original version, instead of being honoured that amongst some of the greatest films of all time (the 70s being a golden era of movies, not that you would care because its too "old" for you) they chose Starwars as the film to show at this festival. But Lucas ignored the honour and shoved his own agenda down their throats. Shameful.

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"I guess I'm not a true fan if I'm not selfish and think that everything the director does has to be all about me."


Now your just putting words in our mouths to insult us, rather then actually argue your points intelligently.

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"Who cares what he wants to accomplish as an artist."


We do! Thats the whole point! We think he accomplished something really great with the OV OT, and we'd like to be able to enjoy it.

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He shouldn't change anything because that's the way I like it, even though I didn't create it and he did.


Again you've proven that you can't read posts and understand what has been said. Look at the mission statement of this thread: nobody has a problem with GL making different versions of his movies, we just want the original version, the one that made cinema history and made us like SW to begin with to still be available.

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It's his child, not mine, so I should be the one to decide what should be done with it. Yeah, that seems logical to me (note the sarcasm).


Again your just putting words in our mouths. Your arguing against something we never even said.

And I dance. And I sing.
And I'm a monkey, in a long line of kings.
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Look at it this way Idiot Basher.

When GL makes the Ultimate editions, its likely he will replace the emperor in ESB with Ian McDiarmid. I think this is a great idea, for continuity and because IM has really brought to life the character of Palpatine. It would be silly not to change this (and easy to do as well).

However, there is another actor (CLive revill) who has been in ESB for over 25 years. SO is it right to suddenly cut him out of the movie after all this time?

For that matter what if they replaced Anakin as he's dying or when he is a ghost with Hayden christiensen? The actor who played old anakin (Sebestain shaw) passed away years ago, wouldn;t that be sort of pissing on his grave?

Or replacing puppet Yoda in ESB and ROTJ with digital Yoda.

All these changes make sense when thinking of the saga as one big six part epic, but they also are insulting to the people who did fine work in the first place and for almost 30 years have been able to say they were part of the SW phenomenon.

BUT:

If you continue to make the original versions available, then none of this is an issue. They could replace every scene of OBI-wan in the oT with Ewan McGregor in aging make-up if they wanted to, and it would be no insult to Alec Guiness' memory, because his original contribution would still be perserved.

And the same is true for all those FX artist who worked for years to create those FX. Nobody is saying their can't be an upgrade, but just keep the originals around as well as a record of what done back in 1977.

Do you follow?
And I dance. And I sing.
And I'm a monkey, in a long line of kings.
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my god where was i during this arguement. i gatta check out this folder more often. i dont have time to explain this right now but in a way i am siding with basher on this. dont hate me until you hear why what parts of his arguement is agree with. ill tell you right now that i do not agree that we should not have a petition.
i come back later and explain. by for now.
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Originally posted by: Rebel Scumb
according to AICN, the sabers were not fixed in that version.

as for the jabba scene, I know it was originally shot, But I highly doubt they planned to replace jabba with a creature back in 1976, it was just going to be that guy, and here's why:

1.the guy is in costume

2.Han refers to him as a human being

3.There was no way to technically achieve that shot back then, nor would ILM have any belief they could, its a moving shot with no blue screen and Han walks both infront of and behind Jabba, hell ILM had trouble doing it with digital technology, there is no way they would of shot it the way they did if they intended to sub in a creature afterwards, not in their wildest dreams.

Look at the shot, it would of been impossible.


There are two more causes why I think Jabba was originally meant to be human: the 7ties comic adaption and the book-adaption. In both Jabba is not described as an alien. I want to emphasise especially on the comic. In this you also get a first look onto Biggs Darklighter. You get to see some scenes with him (Tatooine and Yavin) and the scenes were very similar to what appeared in the SE or at some other sources of cut film material. The same is true for the Jabba in the comic. He looks very similar to the one in the original scenes that didn’t make it into the film. It’s hard to believe that the comic artists were told to create the comic based on unfinished scenes. It appears more likely that they became a rough cut of the film or a drawn script, that showed the movie how it orignially was intended to be.
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Good points.

So while I am glad Jabba eventually became a big slug, to say that it was always the intent to sub in a creature in that scene is absurd, and makes absolutely no sense.
And I dance. And I sing.
And I'm a monkey, in a long line of kings.
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Hmmm, it is very interesting how hostile this guy is toward us and the rediculous case he makes for fluid art forms. Sir, do you have any background in film history or photographic art whatsoever? It is pretty clear that there are glaring problems with the changes Lucas made to the Star Wars trilogy in 1997 if you have any taste or standards for film art or continutity for that matter. Here is my opinion that others here may or may not confirm. There are three major problems with the Special edition:

1. The pistol confrontation between Greedo and Han Solo.

2. The Jabba the Hutt scene added to Star Wars.

3. The Dance number inserted into Return of the Jedi.

The problem with the confrontation scene (number 1) is obviously the way Han Solo jerks his head Abruptly and not so much that Greedo shot first.

The Jabba the Hutt Scene simply fails to look right as there is no continuity whatsoever between his appearance in Return of the Jedi and now The Phantom Menace and his appearance in Star Wars. Also, I dont think there should have been humor (tail step) added to it.

The dance number is bad because simply, the colors dont match. Thats right!! The original scene has muted flesh tones and is very dark and noirish. Now, there are flourescent colors added to it which contrast and distract from the original tone and mood of the set and the scene.

Lucas isnt stupid and he doesnt NOT know how to make a film. He is just lazy. If he would have spent time on the changes they wouldve rocked as indeed some of them did. The space battle comes to mind as well as the vistas seen out the windows of cloud city. If he were to fix the above things I think it would be excellent. In fact, for the most part I think the changes are positive. I am all for CGI and digital imaging, but it must have the same amount of TLC that a celluloid picture gets to look right. The thing that pisses the people here off subconcsiously is the fact that Lucas basically decided to to take a half cocked shit on our beloved film trilogy. Were he to have taken the time and given it the respect and magnitude of effort the work deserves we might have been pleased. But this was not to be.

Oh, by the way, you may leave now. =)

Pana
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I can agree with a lot of what you said, Panaflex. However, my problem with the Han shoots second scene is also that he does shoot second now. The head jerk is one of two problems with that scene. I would also add to your list the extended celebration at the end of ROTJ which just detracted from the entire movie as well as Luke's scream and his changed line on Degobah in ESB.
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
-------------------------
Kevin A
Webmaster/Primary Cynic
kapgar.typepad.com
kapgar.com
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I like the new ending to Jedi, however i agree the luke scream is awful.

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The problem with the confrontation scene (number 1) is obviously the way Han Solo jerks his head Abruptly and not so much that Greedo shot first. "


But more distressing is that it deflates Hans character Arc. The whole point is he is suppose to seem like a guy who cannot be trusted when we first meet him, a shoot first ask questions later kind of guy. We hear him guarntee to Luke and Ben that he can get them past the empire, then a moment later discover he dumps his cargo at the first sign of imperial cruisers. By having Greedo shoot first, it makes Han less of an anti-hero, and also makes absolutely no sense, given that we see Han drawing his pistol under the table (if he was not going to shoot, then why?). And of course there is the most obvious problem that it makes no sense that Greedo would miss from that distance. I could see if they had added in Han kicking the table which would hit Greedo and make him miss. But they didn't. He just missed from point blank range.

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The Jabba the Hutt Scene simply fails to look right as there is no continuity whatsoever between his appearance in Return of the Jedi and now The Phantom Menace and his appearance in Star Wars. Also, I dont think there should have been humor (tail step) added to it.


Agreed. And again it just deflates his character. This is the guy who feeds helpless women to monsters for sick enjoyment, yet he lets Han step on his tail???

And as I said above, the scene adds nothing to the movie, its just repeated dialogue from the Greedo scene. ANd redundant scenes should always be cut.




And I dance. And I sing.
And I'm a monkey, in a long line of kings.
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It just seems like it would've been so easy for them to have made the changes subtle yet effective. Again, the space battle looks fantastic now as well as the walk through cloud city. If he were to fix these small things I would actually be stoked about the "special edition" and Im sure many of you would agree with me. Who know, maybe theyll make it happen yet. ILM has the best CGI people in the business for sure and they have GOT to know that some of that stuff just looks shitty.

*crosses fingers*

Pana
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George Lucas should have just changed the subtitles in the scene back to what it was in the original script:

In the released version, Greedo says "I've been looking forward to this for a long time."

In the original script, he says "I've been looking forward to KILLING you for a long time."

I don't know what more reason Han could have had for shooting Greedo.

If Lucas simply replaced the line, he would provide total justification for Han shooting, without having ILM spends weeks working on the shot that STILL looks awful.
"We're fine, we're all fine down here, now thank you.... How are you?"
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Agreed. Its not like Han was shooting an unarmed guy, this was a guy sent to kill him. It was self defense already, just badass self defense. it didn;t need to be made silly.

Anyone remember when this scene wasn't the posterchild for the decline of SW, this actually use to be my favorite scene in ANH, and now all I can think about it is how it was bastardized.
And I dance. And I sing.
And I'm a monkey, in a long line of kings.
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I agree

Greedo: "I've been looking foward to this for a long time!"

Han: "Yes! I'll bet you have!"

then blows Greedo's head off

greet scene, greats line don't change a thing. It sets up the Han chracter perfectly


E!-A!-G!-L!-E!-S! EAGLES!!!
SUPERBOWL LII CHAMPS!!!

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Panaflex, you hit the nail on the head by mentioning those 3 scenes; I think most of us could live with the SEs if those were changed back. Funny how Idiot Basher seems to have disappeared now; of course, I always got a kick out of the double meaning in his name.

Princess Leia: I happen to like nice men.
Han Solo: I'm a nice man.