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Ranking the Superman films — Page 4

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Bingowings said:

The situation is created by the writer wanting a film where buildings fall down with no regard to the people inside and where the ‘hero’ snaps the neck of the ‘villain’.

It’s not the sort of film that works with that character.

Supergirl the television series currently has superpowered people landing in the middle of town every other week and always the title character tries to get people out of the way or draw the villain to an isolated spot.

If that’s not possible in the story that’s because the writer doesn’t want it to be possible in the story which is down to the writer not understanding how the character works.
If smashing buildings full of people is the only way to stop the villain how is this person a hero?
He is just another force of nature like the Cloverfield monster, which could make for a good film but not a good Superman film.

In the case of Man of Steel it makes for a rather bewildering mess of a final reel.

So the writers should always write the exact same story over and over again and every villain should do the exact same thing for the exact same reason, well that is boring. If that is the way things are going to be done why even bother making more films, why don’t you just rewatch the perfect Superman the movie and Superman 2 and leave the new films alone? That is easy enough. If every film is just going to be the same tired thing and the writers shouldn’t bee allowed to even try any thing new where the stakes are higher in a realistic fashion then I have to wonder why any time or money should be spent making new films, since ever single one of them is going to be exactly the same.

Sorry that is just how I see it, if you don’t take chances on new types of stories there really is no point in telling any more stories. They told the type of story most people seem to want perfectly the first time they tried it with Superman the movie, so why try to top that? Why not just rerelease that film in theaters and maybe give it the SE treatment to clean up some of the more dated special effect, that would be cheaper and the film would be better.

I don’t see this going anywhere productive, so i am done, sorry. In my view if you are not going to take chances then there really is no point in making more movies. I also don’t see why the Justice League would be needed in a world where every villain just politely waits their turn in an open field for Superman to take them down and where Superman can save everyone on his own. Remember one of the jobs the screen writers were given by the studio that pays them was to create a universe where a Justice League movie could take place and the Justice League would be needed because no one hero could save everyone. Superman was only ever able to save everyone in the last series of movies because he could time travel, in this series he doesn’t have that power so he is stuck dealing with the fallout Reeve’s Superman would have had to deal with if he didn’t have that power. Now I admit this is a matter of personal taste and I know I am one of the dumbest and most worthless pieces of garbage on the planet, but this setup appeals to me and I think they can get some good stories out of it and I don’t find it out of character at all.

Now if you think the Reeve’s version of Superman should be the only version anyone is allowed to make films about, then more power to you, write warner brothers and let them know, stay home and watch the old movies instead of watching the new one, write your congressperson and ask that a law be passed outlining what Superman is and is not able to do in a story and how he must always act. That is all fine and productive and maybe it will get passed and then there will be only one version of Superman.

I enjoyed Man of Steel and I am interested to see where the story goes because I saw it as a throwback to the Superman of the 40s and that is my favorite version of the character. I really don’t think there is anything more to say. Neither of us will ever see the logic of the other’s argument so I don’t see any point in continuing. I listed how I rank the films and game my reasons.

Take care.

My ratings for the Star Wars movies. EP1 4.5/10. Ep2 4.0/10. EP3 2.0/10. EP4 9.5/10. EP5 10/10 EP6 8.5/10 EP7 8.3/10.

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TV’s Frink said:

Films replaced by video games? LOL no.

For certain types of stories I think video games do a better job of helping people understand what it is like in a situation.

There are also certain types of stories where films do a better job then video games, then there are others where books do the best job. It all depends on what type of story you are trying to tell and what type of point you are trying to make as a story teller. I think that for action or survival type stories video games do a better job of getting the point across of what it is really like to be in those situations because a video game can put the player right down in the trenches in a way movies will never be able to, that is all.

You don’t agree, that is fine. It just happens to be the way I think right now.

My ratings for the Star Wars movies. EP1 4.5/10. Ep2 4.0/10. EP3 2.0/10. EP4 9.5/10. EP5 10/10 EP6 8.5/10 EP7 8.3/10.

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While I disagree with you, I must commend you for writing well-thought out arguments about why you like MoS. I have never heard any argument for that film that actually made me think, as everyone I know that likes it just says “the effects are better” and “theres more action” and stuff like that. I still don’t like the movie but at least now I feel like I understand why anyone would.

I need to find my old “big book of first appearances” and reread Action Comics #1 now.

The Drink in Question

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suspiciouscoffee said:

While I disagree with you, I must commend you for writing well-thought out arguments about why you like MoS. I have never heard any argument for that film that actually made me think, as everyone I know that likes it just says “the effects are better” and “theres more action” and stuff like that. I still don’t like the movie but at least now I feel like I understand why anyone would.

I need to find my old “big book of first appearances” and reread Action Comics #1 now.

Well thank you, I can’t remember what he does in Action Comics number one but the WW2 comics I have read feature a darker Superman then most people are used to. If I had to guess I would say that the writers decided to pattern their Superman after WW2 era Supes because we are in a state of war to a degree and it doesn’t seem to be going away, so they most likely thought that would help him fit in with the times, also with a lot of people complaining that Superman returns didn’t have any kind of big fight scene in it they most likely thought doing a Superman war story would work.

Thanks for the engaging debate, everyone I have talked to who hate this movie has always just said “He kills Zod, it sucks!” and has not been will to look at why that happened, so this was a nice change, thanks.

My ratings for the Star Wars movies. EP1 4.5/10. Ep2 4.0/10. EP3 2.0/10. EP4 9.5/10. EP5 10/10 EP6 8.5/10 EP7 8.3/10.

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 (Edited)

There are two characters that have inspired more cinematic interpretation more than any other. Count Dracula and Sherlock Holmes. They have well defined traits and follow expected patterns of behaviour so in the hands if a skillful writer it can be exciting to have those expectations suberverted. The bad Superman sequences in Superman III sort of touch on this with the fake Kryptonite story strand as a explanation. What Man of Steel does is assume that the tropes of the character are subverted and runs with it with no in universe explanation. It’s like Superman had taken to booze and womanising with no story switch. If done well it would still be questionable because there just aren’t that many Superman films. But it isn’t. So not only is it a bad film it’s a bad Superman film. Hopefully not the first of many.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6Dp2OfIT_M

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It will be the first of many. Along with Batman, Wonder Woman, and whoever else they put in their main Justice League cast. They just realized that they have to compete with Marvel more.

Army of Darkness: The Medieval Deadit | The Terminator - Color Regrade | The Wrong Trousers - Audio Preservation
SONIC RACES THROUGH THE GREEN FIELDS.
THE SUN RACES THROUGH A BLUE SKY FILLED WITH WHITE CLOUDS.
THE WAYS OF HIS HEART ARE MUCH LIKE THE SUN. SONIC RUNS AND RESTS; THE SUN RISES AND SETS.
DON’T GIVE UP ON THE SUN. DON’T MAKE THE SUN LAUGH AT YOU.

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 (Edited)

You know what was a bad idea to begin with? The animated Death of Superman movie. I like the DaniVerse but trying to cram that whole plot arc into 75 minutes robbed the story or all impact and all point.

My ratings for the Star Wars movies. EP1 4.5/10. Ep2 4.0/10. EP3 2.0/10. EP4 9.5/10. EP5 10/10 EP6 8.5/10 EP7 8.3/10.

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I finally saw 3 and 4 all the way through along with finally re-watching Returns when watching the BD box a month or two ago.

Superman-The theatrical version is a classic of its kind and still copied today along with Burton’s BATMAN. Pioneered the genre whilst actually taking it seriously. The tone achieved is near-unbelievable, and though it isn’t exactly the proper Superman universe I can go along with its interpretation with little to no qualms. (Really just that I don’t like the way they characterized Lois, nor do I agree with the mythological emphasis and rules) 4 out of 4, a classic. Which coming from me speaks volumes.

II will forever be compromised by the production and the completely idiotic removal of Donner at such a late stage. The inserts and new material for the theatrical cut stick out like a sore thumb and the only upsides are that some of Reeve’s performance is better captured the second go round and that the placement of the love scene better fits the “must not get with mortals” rule. The Donner cut is great in that it reinstates all the wonderful little bits but then goes overboard in trying to make a fan edit of sorts. It is horribly dated and should have been more of a hybrid cut anyway. That’s what is needed, as the theatrical has better audio and simply needs the missing bits reinstated. But then you have the conundrum of whether to use mostly Donner sequences or Lester ones or a mixture. It will forever be a compromised mess that should have been the equal of its forerunner…or should have been a very good sequel that paled in comparison because they took all the good parts out to hurry up and finish the first film for the 1978 release and were shooting the second simultaneously.
II and Donner cut each 3.5/4.

III. What a complete mess. What in the world were they thinking? Even the titles are an insult to the previous two films. It looks awful and drab, the story is scattershot, the pandering to Pryor is shoehorned in so badly that the film doesn’t even seem to care…I mean good grief the list goes on so much so that I could go on and on…this is such a frustrating and hard picture to get through. But the Smallville and later evil Superman scenes are largely gold. I was surprised at how good they were and anything not having to do with the beyond inane plot was enjoyable. Reeve again goes for broke, and I quite enjoyed how they did the Lana character aside from the silly sitcom level gags with the rival suitor. That they had planned on Brainiac being the villain is obvious with the supercomputer…but the end result is at times TV-like and agonizingly dull in addition to being mindbogglingly terrible.
An absolute mess that then does an about face and goes rather dark during the Clark-evil Supes fight…and that other shot…the one you see as a kid and think: did I just see that happen? Did she really get sucked into…what the???
A mess. Again A MESS. 1.5/4 for the good scenes, Reeve and nothing else.

IV. I finally saw this one all the way through as well. And for years I heard how they had no money, it’s terrible, it’s horrifyingly bad etc.
Yes there are enormous plot holes from chopping out chunks of plot, yes there is no budget, yes it really doesn’t work, yes the locations are terrible…
But yet, I couldn’t help but mostly enjoy it for what it was and what it tried to do. I appreciated the commitment of Reeve and the primary cast/crew and how they continued on in spite of being faced with absolute failure on every level. The story could have been hammered out better I think, and on the whole it’s not really a job for Supes. But in the end it was a final and wistful goodbye to this incarnation that should have been given a better chance.
2/4. I actually enjoyed this mostly. I can’t believe that I did, but there you go.

Returns. Worse than I remembered. THIS PICTURE JUST DOES NOT WORK. I saw this at Grauman’s Chinese theater during it’s opening week and the place was already largely empty. And on the grandest screen in one of the best theaters in the world…it just. dragged. on. endlessly. The constant hearkening back to the Donner film doesn’t work-especially in the midst of modern tones and being dark for dark’s sake. Spacey’s Luthor is so malevolent that is becomes comical because it is so overdone and not in touch with the rest of the film. The pacing is off, the story is virtually on life support, and every scene seems to drag on endlessly with no real resolution nor with and narrative development. And top it all off the result is an essential quasi-remake of the original right down to Luthor’s land scheme…but on sleeping pills.
1/4. Ugh. It looks terrible from the now archaic digital photography IIRC on the older camera units in lower res. The BD is really bad.

Man of Steel. To me they decided to take RETURNS and do everything as the exact opposite. This is in the Nolan mold but done by Snyder with the same level of disconnection and distraction as his WATCHMEN. I think it’s just as bad as Returns if not worse, because of the way they seem to sidestep Supes character let alone skip Clark at the Planet whilst doing the usual modern origin story without giving you anything but cliffs notes. It also does a poor job at using Zod and felt like a pitiful rehash of II. Destroying all of Metropolis was bad enough but then to have Supes just end it that way…in the theater you could feel the audience going: “what just happened?” Even I felt disquiet and I’m not a huge Supes fan or anything.
MoS is at its best when doing new things. The best aspect for me was Krypton and particularly Crowe’s Jor-el which I found wonderful. A prequel about Krypton would have been better. But at least we finally got a strong Lois!!\ Wasted was Costner’s Pa Kent, and his exit was truly bad.
And of course the shakycam and digital snapzooms are abominations.
1/4 at best for me. I have no faith in the Superman vs Batman release as it is merely a MoS sequel that will rip off the conclusion of THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS.

Maybe I’m a bit biased because my favorite adaptation are the Fleischer/Famous cartoons, which are IMHO definitive masterpieces. But for more well rounded, there’s the animated series which is probably the best Supes adaptation ever done. That’s usually what I go back to because again as usual Bruce Timm and co. know these characters inside and out. (Can it be a rule that Lois always jokingly call Clark Smallville? I absolutely love that.)

VADER!? WHERE THE HELL IS MY MOCHA LATTE? -Palpy on a very bad day.

“George didn’t think there was any future in dead Han toys.”-Harrison Ford

My review blog: thehificelluloidmonster.wordpress.com

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captainsolo said:

Maybe I’m a bit biased because my favorite adaptation are the Fleischer/Famous cartoons, which are IMHO definitive masterpieces. But for more well rounded, there’s the animated series which is probably the best Supes adaptation ever done. That’s usually what I go back to because again as usual Bruce Timm and co. know these characters inside and out. (Can it be a rule that Lois always jokingly call Clark Smallville? I absolutely love that.)

It certainly helps that the DCAU Superman was largely based off of the post-Crisis Superman. Why can’t that Superman appear in a live-action movie?

Virgin since 1987, horny since 1999. Thank God I’m not an incel.

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captainsolo said:

Maybe I’m a bit biased because my favorite adaptation are the Fleischer/Famous cartoons, which are IMHO definitive masterpieces. But for more well rounded, there’s the animated series which is probably the best Supes adaptation ever done. That’s usually what I go back to because again as usual Bruce Timm and co. know these characters inside and out. (Can it be a rule that Lois always jokingly call Clark Smallville? I absolutely love that.)

Ah the Fleischer cartoons! I’m gonna have to break out my old DVDs of those sometime soon. Those were probably the most re-watched things of my childhood.

The Drink in Question

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Same here. I gee up with a handful of VHS public domain cartoon tapes each with a Superman or two.
And I just ordered the image DVD port of the LD to go along with the diamond and Warner.

VADER!? WHERE THE HELL IS MY MOCHA LATTE? -Palpy on a very bad day.

“George didn’t think there was any future in dead Han toys.”-Harrison Ford

My review blog: thehificelluloidmonster.wordpress.com

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 (Edited)

I think Superman Returns is an interesting attempt to do something somewhat different. It has one foot in the past and one in the present in the worst way, however, and can never get over its identity crisis. That said, I think Bryan Singer is one of the best action filmmakers working today, and it has a couple of very impressive set pieces; the plane rescue in particular is genuinely exciting.

Man of Steel has the opposite problem: it wanted to do something other than “Lex Luthor tries to kill Superman with Kryptonite” and went so far in the other direction that I feels like an Outer Limits episode abut a guy who discovers he has alien origins.

“What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one.”

Neil Postman, Amusing Ourselves to Death

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Mike O said:

Man of Steel has the opposite problem: it wanted to do something other than “Lex Luthor tries to kill Superman with Kryptonite” and went so far in the other direction that I feels like an Outer Limits episode abut a guy who discovers he has alien origins.

An episode from the original Outer Limits or the '90s revival? ;-P

Virgin since 1987, horny since 1999. Thank God I’m not an incel.

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I think that Man of Steel excellently captured what would really happen if two super powered beings went head to head, if neither of them gave a crap how much damage they made. That’s probably my biggest issue with the film. I also don’t like the jumpy nature and the lack of actual character development for adult Clark. I like the film, but it definitely has flaws. Zod’s death was also avoidable.

Not enough people read the EU.

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The first time I saw Man of Steel, I freakin loved it. The second time, a few months later when I caught in on TV, I was confused. “Is this really the same movie I loved a few months ago? It’s awful!” I’ve only seen it once since and I still don’t like it. It’s been a year or so though, maybe it deserves another shot.

The Drink in Question

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It sucks that two of the best moments in any of the 1980’s era Superman sequels are from Superman III. The bad Superman scenes and the evil woman turning into a robot are awesome.

“First feel fear, then get angry. Then go with your life into the fight.” - Bill Mollison

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DuracellEnergizer said:

Suffice it to say, out of the Reeve films, I only like Superman III.

Would you mind expaining why? I’m not judging you, I haven’t even seen it, I just want to know how you think it’s good whilst disliking 1 and 2.

Not enough people read the EU.

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 (Edited)

My main reasons for liking Superman III over the Reeve films is basically:

  1. I like the more well-rounded characterization of Clark in this film.

Cutting to the chase, I’m not a fan of any variation of the “Superman is the real person, Clark is the disguise” idea. For me, it’s a horrible interpretation of the character and flies in the face of everything the character represents to me. While it’s a stretch to say that Superman III makes Clark the “real” persona, the film does give a more nuanced approach to the character, presenting him as something more than a bumbling facade.

  1. The entire “Evil Superman vs. Clark Kent” fight

I enjoy seeing Clark Kent – the human side of the character – triumph over Superman – the alien side.

  1. Lana Lang

I really like Annette O’Toole as Lana. I find her a more likeable, compelling love interest than Kidder’s Lois.

And that’s about it. In every other respect, Superman III's no better than the other Reeve films.

Virgin since 1987, horny since 1999. Thank God I’m not an incel.

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DuracellEnergizer said:

And that’s about it. In every other respect, Superman III's no better than the other Reeve films.

Agreed. In fact, it’s much much worse!

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DuracellEnergizer said:

…I’m not a fan of any variation of the “Superman is the real person, Clark is the disguise” idea…

Okay, I’m not trying to say “your wrong”, but, that’s literally how the character works. Kal-El is an alien from Krypton, raised by humans on Earth from infancy (given the name Clark Kent), and he disguises himself as a human to fit in with the other humans. He just overdoes it a lot.

Army of Darkness: The Medieval Deadit | The Terminator - Color Regrade | The Wrong Trousers - Audio Preservation
SONIC RACES THROUGH THE GREEN FIELDS.
THE SUN RACES THROUGH A BLUE SKY FILLED WITH WHITE CLOUDS.
THE WAYS OF HIS HEART ARE MUCH LIKE THE SUN. SONIC RUNS AND RESTS; THE SUN RISES AND SETS.
DON’T GIVE UP ON THE SUN. DON’T MAKE THE SUN LAUGH AT YOU.

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 (Edited)

It’s apparent you’ve never read any of the comics published after 1985 or watched Lois & Clark: The New Adventures of Superman or Superman: The Animated Series.

Virgin since 1987, horny since 1999. Thank God I’m not an incel.

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DuracellEnergizer said:

It’s apparent you’ve never read any of the comics published after 1985 or watched Lois & Clark: The New Adventures of Superman or Superman: The Animated Series.

I haven’t and I’m proud of it.

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Also, do you remember when Superman: The Movie and Superman II were made? 1978 and 1979 definitely happened before 1985. And I’m also curious as to the way in which the things you’ve mentioned treated this subject. How was Clark Kent portrayed differently from Superman in these? etc…

Army of Darkness: The Medieval Deadit | The Terminator - Color Regrade | The Wrong Trousers - Audio Preservation
SONIC RACES THROUGH THE GREEN FIELDS.
THE SUN RACES THROUGH A BLUE SKY FILLED WITH WHITE CLOUDS.
THE WAYS OF HIS HEART ARE MUCH LIKE THE SUN. SONIC RUNS AND RESTS; THE SUN RISES AND SETS.
DON’T GIVE UP ON THE SUN. DON’T MAKE THE SUN LAUGH AT YOU.