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Ranking the Star Wars films — Page 98

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DuracellEnergizer said:

Now that I’ve finally seen R1 …

  1. The Empire Strikes Back
  2. Star Wars
  3. Rogue One
  4. The Force Awakens
  5. Return of the Jedi
  6. Caravan of Courage: An Ewok Adventure
  7. Ewoks: The Battle for Endor
  8. The Clone Wars
  9. The Phantom Menace
  10. The Star Wars Holiday Special
  11. Attack of the Clones
  12. Revenge of the Sith

My rankings haven’t changed. I’m just reposting this so I don’t have to back-click through a billion pages to find it again.

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DrDre said:

imperialscum said:

DrDre said:

imperialscum said:

DrDre said:

imperialscum said:

ROTJ had some of the best character development in OT. While Han’s character development in ESB was great, I think Luke’s and Vader’s character developments in ROTJ were even a level above that.

I disagree. The Luke/Vader arc was great, but it was the only significant arc in the film. The other characters were just going through the motions, shells of their former selfs. TESB had great arcs for all the main characters. Every character was in a very different place personally at the end of the second installment from where they started off. This puts TESB miles ahead of ROTJ in the character development department.

Different place in terms of character? Not entirely true. For example, Luke does not actually change much in ESB. He is still this enthusiastic and reckless guy as he was at the beginning. He leaves Yoda’s training pretty much the same person (recklessly nonetheless). Leia again does not change much besides finally revealing her feelings to Han. The only one with a significant change is Han’s character. It is unfortunate that Lucas made Leia proclaim her love to Han already in ESB. I think iff he would leave that for ROTJ, those two character could be used way better in ROTJ.

In ROTJ Luke becomes completely different person compared to ANH and ESB. Same goes for Vader. While Vader was likeable and badass in ANH and ESB, he was pretty one dimensional. In ROTJ his character get a lot of depth and becomes very interesting. Even Leia and Han actually get development in ROTJ and are considerably different compared to ANH and ESB. While it might be a development you do not like but it is still a considerable development.

Anyway, I did not say ROTJ is overall the best in terms of character development. I just said that Luke’s and Vader’s character development are individually better than anything seen in ANH or ESB.

Luke doesn’t change much? Seriously? You throw out a pretty part of the story. I think this guy…

You are unable to differentiate between current state of the character due to some external “disturbance” and actual change/development of character. That scene is just Luke still being shocked due to the reveal and due to trauma related to his damn limb being cut off. So what exactly are the actions and dialogue he makes after that scene that indicate any difference (within ESB of course)? In the one scene that is left after that one I do not see any change of character.

I disagree. For one a person who experiences trauma is never the same after such an external “disturbance”. This is the very nature of trauma, and Luke experienced trauma in more ways than just physical injury. He went to Cloud City, believing he might be able to save his friends from the clutches of the man who murdered his father, only to come up one hand short, and discovering that his noble hero father is the ultimate bad guy. A man is, what he believes in, and everything Luke believed, has turned out to be a lie. I would call that a life changing event. The Luke at the end of TESB definitely is no longer the naive young rebel he was at the start of the film. He is now a Jedi in training, who’s life has been turned upside down. The idea that he would just get a new hand, and go on as if nothing has happened (which is what you seem to suggest) is ludricous to me.

Imperialscum - You are beaten. It is useless to resist. Don’t make them destroy you…

😉

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One thing about ROTJ that’s often overlooked is how it thematically sets up Luke and Leia’s sibling relationship.

In ESB Luke rushed off hotheadedly on his own to save his friends, and got his right hand cut off by Vader as a result. In ROTJ Leia rushes off hotheadedly on her own to save Han, and is unmasked and implicitly raped by Jabba as a result.

Skywalker hotbloodedness in both cases. But since the Leia bit of that parallel is told mostly through implication, few viewers pick up on it.

“That Darth Vader, man. Sure does love eating Jedi.”

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ATMachine said:

One thing about ROTJ that’s often overlooked is how it thematically sets up Luke and Leia’s sibling relationship.

In ESB Luke rushed off hotheadedly on his own to save his friends, and got his right hand cut off by Vader as a result. In ROTJ Leia rushes off hotheadedly on her own to save Han, and is unmasked and implicitly raped by Jabba as a result.

Skywalker hotbloodedness in both cases. But since the Leia bit of that parallel is told mostly through implication, few viewers pick up on it.

Can’t say I ever picked up on any implications that Leia HAD been raped, sure it could be an extrapolated possibility if you took that view that at some stage she would be but by whom I don’t know as looking at Jabba he doesn’t seem compatible with humans and being her captor and master of the palace, it’s not like anyone else has access to her without his permission and there’s no implication in the movie as to any of this.

Basically I am saying - what makes you think (from in movie implications and cues) that she has or would be raped simply because she is sitting there in a bikini? It’s a possibility if your mind really delves down that line of thought but I don’t feel the movie allows for this, ultimately just showing as another part of Jabba’s entertainment in humiliating his captives and displaying his power over them (like carbonite Han hanging as a wall display).

.Val

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I don’t think the scales of size are really right for that to even be possible.

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Two words: tongue action.

Those two words said, I don’t think Leia was raped. I think she’d exhibit signs of PTSD had she been.

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Valheru_84 said:

ATMachine said:

One thing about ROTJ that’s often overlooked is how it thematically sets up Luke and Leia’s sibling relationship.

In ESB Luke rushed off hotheadedly on his own to save his friends, and got his right hand cut off by Vader as a result. In ROTJ Leia rushes off hotheadedly on her own to save Han, and is unmasked and implicitly raped by Jabba as a result.

Skywalker hotbloodedness in both cases. But since the Leia bit of that parallel is told mostly through implication, few viewers pick up on it.

Can’t say I ever picked up on any implications that Leia HAD been raped, sure it could be an extrapolated possibility if you took that view that at some stage she would be but by whom I don’t know as looking at Jabba he doesn’t seem compatible with humans and being her captor and master of the palace, it’s not like anyone else has access to her without his permission and there’s no implication in the movie as to any of this.

Basically I am saying - what makes you think (from in movie implications and cues) that she has or would be raped simply because she is sitting there in a bikini? It’s a possibility if your mind really delves down that line of thought but I don’t feel the movie allows for this, ultimately just showing as another part of Jabba’s entertainment in humiliating his captives and displaying his power over them (like carbonite Han hanging as a wall display).

.Val

It’s in Kasdan’s second-draft screenplay, which contains everything in the finished film but also uses the phrase “fate worse than death” to describe what happens to her offscreen.

The nuEU also apparently had this in mind, because it specifically invalidated the Legends claim that Hutts were all hermaphrodites.

I wonder how many people would be lining up for photos with Jabba at Star Wars conventions if they knew?

DuracellEnergizer said:

Two words: tongue action.

Those two words said, I don’t think Leia was raped. I think she’d exhibit signs of PTSD had she been.

She does! Leia is uncharacteristically silent throughout the whole scene where she’s in the bikini. Basically the idea is she’s in shock after being assaulted. As Carrie Fisher said, normally Leia would be first to crack wise about that skimpy outfit. But she’s silent, because she’s traumatized by what happened offscreen.

“That Darth Vader, man. Sure does love eating Jedi.”

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Leia was more likely to have been raped in Star Wars and Empire Strikes back.

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You’re more right than you know.

The 1975 third-draft script has Leia interrogated by Vader and two other Imperial officers: a scene modeled on a deleted scene in THX 1138 which survived in the novelization, where LUH is raped by three prison guards.

Not to mention several of Ralph McQuarrie’s thumbnail sketches for the chasm-swing scene show Leia bare-breasted and wearing only a tattered skirt. (And another 1975 McQuarrie “wardrobe malfunction” sketch of Leia in prison is the frontispiece to The Making of ESB.)

“That Darth Vader, man. Sure does love eating Jedi.”

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We’re all just deviated preverts. The question is whether to be proud or ashamed of it.

I choose the latter.

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I choose the former. Mainly because not all of us want to live in the stultifying sterility of proverbial Peoria.

But even Luke’s mutilation in ESB was conceived in sublimated sexual terms: Lucas referred to it as “a castration scene” on multiple occasions.

“That Darth Vader, man. Sure does love eating Jedi.”

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ATMachine said:

Valheru_84 said:

ATMachine said:

One thing about ROTJ that’s often overlooked is how it thematically sets up Luke and Leia’s sibling relationship.

In ESB Luke rushed off hotheadedly on his own to save his friends, and got his right hand cut off by Vader as a result. In ROTJ Leia rushes off hotheadedly on her own to save Han, and is unmasked and implicitly raped by Jabba as a result.

Skywalker hotbloodedness in both cases. But since the Leia bit of that parallel is told mostly through implication, few viewers pick up on it.

Can’t say I ever picked up on any implications that Leia HAD been raped, sure it could be an extrapolated possibility if you took that view that at some stage she would be but by whom I don’t know as looking at Jabba he doesn’t seem compatible with humans and being her captor and master of the palace, it’s not like anyone else has access to her without his permission and there’s no implication in the movie as to any of this.

Basically I am saying - what makes you think (from in movie implications and cues) that she has or would be raped simply because she is sitting there in a bikini? It’s a possibility if your mind really delves down that line of thought but I don’t feel the movie allows for this, ultimately just showing as another part of Jabba’s entertainment in humiliating his captives and displaying his power over them (like carbonite Han hanging as a wall display).

.Val

It’s in Kasdan’s second-draft screenplay, which contains everything in the finished film but also uses the phrase “fate worse than death” to describe what happens to her offscreen.

That isn’t any evidence to say it is rape. Rape alone isn’t worse than death as after rape there is still life no matter what trauma came beforehand. Death is final, there’s no going back or alternative outcomes…though I suppose the topic is somewhat debatable for Jedi Knights that become force ghosts 😉

ATMachine said:
The nuEU also apparently had this in mind, because it specifically invalidated the Legends claim that Hutts were all hermaphrodites.

No offense if you do, but I really don’t care what any sort of EU has to say on original OT canon and I never will.

ATMachine said:
I wonder how many people would be lining up for photos with Jabba at Star Wars conventions if they knew?

DuracellEnergizer said:

Two words: tongue action.

Those two words said, I don’t think Leia was raped. I think she’d exhibit signs of PTSD had she been.

She does! Leia is uncharacteristically silent throughout the whole scene where she’s in the bikini. Basically the idea is she’s in shock after being assaulted. As Carrie Fisher said, normally Leia would be first to crack wise about that skimpy outfit. But she’s silent, because she’s traumatized by what happened offscreen.

Definitely not how I read the scene. She is a captive at the time with a chain around her neck, a wise crack would get her nothing but punishment from Jabba (with the knowledge that there’s a master plan to free them all instead of at the start of ANH when she’s openly defiant in the face of certain torture and death at the hands of Darth Vader or the Empire, constantly spitting in their face to try and force their hand for a quick death and not risk giving up the rebel base location). She does let loose a furtive smirk though at Luke’s seemingly boastful offer to Jabba, showing her rebellious spark is still there but held in close check lest she draw the ire of Jabba or potentially show her contempt for her current situation and therefore possibly give away some hint as to a larger rescue plan in action. She gets a good yank on the chain anyway, Jabba showing his power over holding her captive but I can’t see any other inferences.

That’s what I read into it anyway if I want to start examining the scene and extrapolating of screen events.

.Val

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Valheru_84 said:

ATMachine said:

Valheru_84 said:

ATMachine said:

One thing about ROTJ that’s often overlooked is how it thematically sets up Luke and Leia’s sibling relationship.

In ESB Luke rushed off hotheadedly on his own to save his friends, and got his right hand cut off by Vader as a result. In ROTJ Leia rushes off hotheadedly on her own to save Han, and is unmasked and implicitly raped by Jabba as a result.

Skywalker hotbloodedness in both cases. But since the Leia bit of that parallel is told mostly through implication, few viewers pick up on it.

Can’t say I ever picked up on any implications that Leia HAD been raped, sure it could be an extrapolated possibility if you took that view that at some stage she would be but by whom I don’t know as looking at Jabba he doesn’t seem compatible with humans and being her captor and master of the palace, it’s not like anyone else has access to her without his permission and there’s no implication in the movie as to any of this.

Basically I am saying - what makes you think (from in movie implications and cues) that she has or would be raped simply because she is sitting there in a bikini? It’s a possibility if your mind really delves down that line of thought but I don’t feel the movie allows for this, ultimately just showing as another part of Jabba’s entertainment in humiliating his captives and displaying his power over them (like carbonite Han hanging as a wall display).

.Val

It’s in Kasdan’s second-draft screenplay, which contains everything in the finished film but also uses the phrase “fate worse than death” to describe what happens to her offscreen.

That isn’t any evidence to say it is rape. Rape alone isn’t worse than death as after rape there is still life no matter what trauma came beforehand. Death is final, there’s no going back or alternative outcomes…though I suppose the topic is somewhat debatable for Jedi Knights that become force ghosts 😉

Be that as it may, the phrase “fate worse than death” is a traditional euphemism for rape/sexual assault/etc. Kasdan using it in dialogue in the script indicates that he, as the film’s writer, understood that to be what happens in that scene.

ATMachine said:
The nuEU also apparently had this in mind, because it specifically invalidated the Legends claim that Hutts were all hermaphrodites.

No offense if you do, but I really don’t care what any sort of EU has to say on original OT canon and I never will.

This is an admirable approach. Of course I personally am one who prefers to throw out the idea of a single rigid “canon” altogther.

“That Darth Vader, man. Sure does love eating Jedi.”

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ATMachine said:

Valheru_84 said:

ATMachine said:

Valheru_84 said:

ATMachine said:

One thing about ROTJ that’s often overlooked is how it thematically sets up Luke and Leia’s sibling relationship.

In ESB Luke rushed off hotheadedly on his own to save his friends, and got his right hand cut off by Vader as a result. In ROTJ Leia rushes off hotheadedly on her own to save Han, and is unmasked and implicitly raped by Jabba as a result.

Skywalker hotbloodedness in both cases. But since the Leia bit of that parallel is told mostly through implication, few viewers pick up on it.

Can’t say I ever picked up on any implications that Leia HAD been raped, sure it could be an extrapolated possibility if you took that view that at some stage she would be but by whom I don’t know as looking at Jabba he doesn’t seem compatible with humans and being her captor and master of the palace, it’s not like anyone else has access to her without his permission and there’s no implication in the movie as to any of this.

Basically I am saying - what makes you think (from in movie implications and cues) that she has or would be raped simply because she is sitting there in a bikini? It’s a possibility if your mind really delves down that line of thought but I don’t feel the movie allows for this, ultimately just showing as another part of Jabba’s entertainment in humiliating his captives and displaying his power over them (like carbonite Han hanging as a wall display).

.Val

It’s in Kasdan’s second-draft screenplay, which contains everything in the finished film but also uses the phrase “fate worse than death” to describe what happens to her offscreen.

That isn’t any evidence to say it is rape. Rape alone isn’t worse than death as after rape there is still life no matter what trauma came beforehand. Death is final, there’s no going back or alternative outcomes…though I suppose the topic is somewhat debatable for Jedi Knights that become force ghosts 😉

Be that as it may, the phrase “fate worse than death” is a traditional euphemism for rape/sexual assault/etc. Kasdan using it in dialogue in the script indicates that he, as the film’s writer, understood that to be what happens in that scene.

ATMachine said:
The nuEU also apparently had this in mind, because it specifically invalidated the Legends claim that Hutts were all hermaphrodites.

No offense if you do, but I really don’t care what any sort of EU has to say on original OT canon and I never will.

This is an admirable approach. Of course I personally am one who prefers to throw out the idea of a single rigid “canon” altogther.

Maybe if this had been more Kasdan’s movie than George taking back the tiller somewhat after ESB, then that may have come through in the movie and been what people naturally inferred. Such is not the case though with ROTJ being swung back to more kid sensitive themes and what you are referencing with Kasdan is external to the movie experience itself and therefore in my opinion it does not count as I’m basing my take on the scene primarily from simply watching it in the course of a full theatrical viewing.

It’s interesting that Kasan had a much darker intent for that part of the story but it’s not in the movie as far as I can see so it doesn’t change how I see the scene itself.

As for canon, I’ve only ever known that of the OT before the PT times (which Id just as happily discount and forget) and therefore it is self contained, almost frozen in time if you will and I’m not interested in the EU so for me all that matters is what is in the OT and how it is perceived through those movies.

.Val

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Can you guys please just start your own “Rape and Incest in Star Wars” thread?

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TV’s Frink said:

Can you guys please just start your own “Rape and Incest in Star Wars” thread?

I am surprised that DE has not yet made one.

真実