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Ranking the Star Wars films — Page 96

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The titles as they appear in the films (with the exception of the original 1977 release of ANH and Rogue One) include episode numbers. The prequels, however, were the only ones to use the episode numbers in their marketing.

So, I mean, you’re kind of both right.

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yhwx said:

http://www.afi.com/members/catalog/AbbrView.aspx?s=&Movie=55187
http://www.afi.com/members/catalog/AbbrView.aspx?s=&Movie=56403
http://www.afi.com/members/catalog/AbbrView.aspx?s=&Movie=58057
http://www.bbfc.co.uk/releases/star-wars-force-awakens-film

Thanks but i’m not quite convinced:
STAR WARS: THE FORCE AWAKENS [2D] appears to be the official title then 😃
And hard to say about the OT since their original released dates aren’t given: http://www.bbfc.co.uk/releases/star-wars-episode-vi-return-jedi-1983

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Star Wars (1977)
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Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace (1999)
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Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith (2005)
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It’s written “alternate movie title” as well, yet you don’t find anything about the episode number for the OT, so the list is very incomplete, so not very trustworthy… and TFA is nowhere to be found on this site anyway…

That’s being said there is a number on the crawl of the theatrical cut of V-VI-I-II-III-VII so I still don’t get why you would use them for the PT and not for the OT (use for both or use for none).

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 (Edited)

I just displayed them the way they were originally released when they came out. In 1980 and '83, the movies were simply released as ‘The Empire Strikes Back’ and ‘Return of the Jedi’. They were not originally marketed as ‘Episode 5’ or ‘Episode 6’. So for me, that’s how I remember and associate them. I did edit ‘Star Wars: The Force Awakens’ in my original list though. YMMV

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Well, if you’re getting that pedantic, RO should be Rogue One: A Star Wars Story. 😉

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ChainsawAsh said:

Well, if you’re getting that pedantic, RO should be Rogue One: A Star Wars Story. 😉

Noted and corrected, thank you! 😊

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 (Edited)

And now for something completely different.

Whole number rankings are insufficient. In an attempt to quantify the quality of the films, I have divided each film in half. Bold for OT, Italics for PT.

ANH, Second Half: 1
ESB, Second Half: 1.5
ANH, First Half: 2
ESB, First Half: 2.5
ROTJ, Second Half: 3
TFA, First Half: 3.5
RO, Second Half: 4
ROTJ, First Half: 4.5
ROTS, Second Half: 5
TFA, Second Half: 5.5
TPM, First Half: 6
RO, First Half: 6.5
TPM, Second Half: 7
ROTS, First Half: 7.5
AOTC, First Half: 8
AOTC, Second Half 8.5

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Workprint V4 Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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Imperial Slug said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Well, if you’re getting that pedantic, RO should be Rogue One: A Star Wars Story. 😉

Noted and corrected, thank you! 😊

Curiously, the title card in the actual movie is just ROGUE ONE (there is no “A Star Wars Story” anywhere !).

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 (Edited)

imperialscum said:

DrDre said:

imperialscum said:

DrDre said:

imperialscum said:

ROTJ had some of the best character development in OT. While Han’s character development in ESB was great, I think Luke’s and Vader’s character developments in ROTJ were even a level above that.

I disagree. The Luke/Vader arc was great, but it was the only significant arc in the film. The other characters were just going through the motions, shells of their former selfs. TESB had great arcs for all the main characters. Every character was in a very different place personally at the end of the second installment from where they started off. This puts TESB miles ahead of ROTJ in the character development department.

Different place in terms of character? Not entirely true. For example, Luke does not actually change much in ESB. He is still this enthusiastic and reckless guy as he was at the beginning. He leaves Yoda’s training pretty much the same person (recklessly nonetheless). Leia again does not change much besides finally revealing her feelings to Han. The only one with a significant change is Han’s character. It is unfortunate that Lucas made Leia proclaim her love to Han already in ESB. I think iff he would leave that for ROTJ, those two character could be used way better in ROTJ.

In ROTJ Luke becomes completely different person compared to ANH and ESB. Same goes for Vader. While Vader was likeable and badass in ANH and ESB, he was pretty one dimensional. In ROTJ his character get a lot of depth and becomes very interesting. Even Leia and Han actually get development in ROTJ and are considerably different compared to ANH and ESB. While it might be a development you do not like but it is still a considerable development.

Anyway, I did not say ROTJ is overall the best in terms of character development. I just said that Luke’s and Vader’s character development are individually better than anything seen in ANH or ESB.

Luke doesn’t change much? Seriously? You throw out a pretty part of the story. I think this guy…

You are unable to differentiate between current state of the character due to some external “disturbance” and actual change/development of character. That scene is just Luke still being shocked due to the reveal and due to trauma related to his damn limb being cut off. So what exactly are the actions and dialogue he makes after that scene that indicate any difference (within ESB of course)? In the one scene that is left after that one I do not see any change of character.

I disagree. For one a person who experiences trauma is never the same after such an external “disturbance”. This is the very nature of trauma, and Luke experienced trauma in more ways than just physical injury. He went to Cloud City, believing he might be able to save his friends from the clutches of the man who murdered his father, only to come up one hand short, and discovering that his noble hero father is the ultimate bad guy. A man is, what he believes in, and everything Luke believed, has turned out to be a lie. I would call that a life changing event. The Luke at the end of TESB definitely is no longer the naive young rebel he was at the start of the film. He is now a Jedi in training, who’s life has been turned upside down. The idea that he would just get a new hand, and go on as if nothing has happened (which is what you seem to suggest) is ludricous to me.

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I would argue that ESB is the ONLY film in the original trilogy in which the protagonist actually does undergo major character development. In the other films it’s other characters that undergo major change, Han in SW and Vader in ROTJ. Luke undergoes some change in those films, but nothing I’d call major.

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 (Edited)

DrDre said:

imperialscum said:

DrDre said:

imperialscum said:

DrDre said:

imperialscum said:

ROTJ had some of the best character development in OT. While Han’s character development in ESB was great, I think Luke’s and Vader’s character developments in ROTJ were even a level above that.

I disagree. The Luke/Vader arc was great, but it was the only significant arc in the film. The other characters were just going through the motions, shells of their former selfs. TESB had great arcs for all the main characters. Every character was in a very different place personally at the end of the second installment from where they started off. This puts TESB miles ahead of ROTJ in the character development department.

Different place in terms of character? Not entirely true. For example, Luke does not actually change much in ESB. He is still this enthusiastic and reckless guy as he was at the beginning. He leaves Yoda’s training pretty much the same person (recklessly nonetheless). Leia again does not change much besides finally revealing her feelings to Han. The only one with a significant change is Han’s character. It is unfortunate that Lucas made Leia proclaim her love to Han already in ESB. I think iff he would leave that for ROTJ, those two character could be used way better in ROTJ.

In ROTJ Luke becomes completely different person compared to ANH and ESB. Same goes for Vader. While Vader was likeable and badass in ANH and ESB, he was pretty one dimensional. In ROTJ his character get a lot of depth and becomes very interesting. Even Leia and Han actually get development in ROTJ and are considerably different compared to ANH and ESB. While it might be a development you do not like but it is still a considerable development.

Anyway, I did not say ROTJ is overall the best in terms of character development. I just said that Luke’s and Vader’s character development are individually better than anything seen in ANH or ESB.

Luke doesn’t change much? Seriously? You throw out a pretty part of the story. I think this guy…

You are unable to differentiate between current state of the character due to some external “disturbance” and actual change/development of character. That scene is just Luke still being shocked due to the reveal and due to trauma related to his damn limb being cut off. So what exactly are the actions and dialogue he makes after that scene that indicate any difference (within ESB of course)? In the one scene that is left after that one I do not see any change of character.

I disagree. For one a person who experiences trauma is never the same after such an external “disturbance”. This is the very nature of trauma, and Luke experienced trauma in more ways than just physical injury. He went to Cloud City, believing he might be able to save his friends from the clutches of the man who murdered his father, only to come up one hand short, and discovering that his noble hero father is the ultimate bad guy. A man is, what he believes in, and everything Luke believed, has turned out to be a lie. I would call that a life changing event. The Luke at the end of TESB definitely is no longer the naive young rebel he was at the start of the film. He is now a Jedi in training, who’s life has been turned upside down. The idea that he would just get a new hand, and go on as if nothing has happened (which is what you seem to suggest) is ludricous to me.

I do not necessary disagree with with your assumptions, but if we look at the dry facts, in the one scene that is left in ESB there is nothing that indicates any change in character. There are no actions or dialogue that would indicate so.

In fact, from that one last scene the only thing that is clear is that he was going to do another “friend saving” adventure instead of going back to Yoda, which can only indicate he did not change much or learn anything.

真実

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DrDre said:

I disagree. For one a person who experiences trauma is never the same after such an external “disturbance”. This is the very nature of trauma, and Luke experienced trauma in more ways than just physical injury. He went to Cloud City, believing he might be able to save his friends from the clutches of the man who murdered his father, only to come up one hand short, and discovering that his noble hero father is the ultimate bad guy. A man is, what he believes in, and everything Luke believed, has turned out to be a lie. I would call that a life changing event. The Luke at the end of TESB definitely is no longer the naive young rebel he was at the start of the film. He is now a Jedi in training, who’s life has been turned upside down. The idea that he would just get a new hand, and go on as if nothing has happened (which is what you seem to suggest) is ludricous to me.

Imperialscum, you are going to have a hard time winning your debates when you keep running into solid posts like these.

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imperialscum said:

I do not necessary disagree with with your assumptions, but if we look at the dry facts, in the one scene that is left in ESB there is nothing that indicates any change in character. There are no actions or dialogue that would indicate so.

You don’t need to be shown everything on screen. Don’t fall into the Lucas trap.

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 (Edited)

Alderaan said:

imperialscum said:

I do not necessary disagree with with your assumptions, but if we look at the dry facts, in the one scene that is left in ESB there is nothing that indicates any change in character. There are no actions or dialogue that would indicate so.

You don’t need to be shown everything on screen. Don’t fall into the Lucas trap.

Well I am not the guy who would need to be shown everything on screen but when it comes to characterisation the only thing that can actually develop the character is dialogue and (even more so) actions. Unfortunately, assumptions do no develop characters.

真実

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imperialscum said:

Alderaan said:

imperialscum said:

I do not necessary disagree with with your assumptions, but if we look at the dry facts, in the one scene that is left in ESB there is nothing that indicates any change in character. There are no actions or dialogue that would indicate so.

You don’t need to be shown everything on screen. Don’t fall into the Lucas trap.

Well I am not the guy who would need to be shown everything on screen but when it comes to characterisation the only thing that can actually develop the character is dialogue and (even more so) actions. Unfortunately, assumptions do no develop characters.

Not everything needs to be said or acted out loud for the audience to get it. That’s called inferencing.

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imperialscum said:

DrDre said:

imperialscum said:

DrDre said:

imperialscum said:

DrDre said:

imperialscum said:

ROTJ had some of the best character development in OT. While Han’s character development in ESB was great, I think Luke’s and Vader’s character developments in ROTJ were even a level above that.

I disagree. The Luke/Vader arc was great, but it was the only significant arc in the film. The other characters were just going through the motions, shells of their former selfs. TESB had great arcs for all the main characters. Every character was in a very different place personally at the end of the second installment from where they started off. This puts TESB miles ahead of ROTJ in the character development department.

Different place in terms of character? Not entirely true. For example, Luke does not actually change much in ESB. He is still this enthusiastic and reckless guy as he was at the beginning. He leaves Yoda’s training pretty much the same person (recklessly nonetheless). Leia again does not change much besides finally revealing her feelings to Han. The only one with a significant change is Han’s character. It is unfortunate that Lucas made Leia proclaim her love to Han already in ESB. I think iff he would leave that for ROTJ, those two character could be used way better in ROTJ.

In ROTJ Luke becomes completely different person compared to ANH and ESB. Same goes for Vader. While Vader was likeable and badass in ANH and ESB, he was pretty one dimensional. In ROTJ his character get a lot of depth and becomes very interesting. Even Leia and Han actually get development in ROTJ and are considerably different compared to ANH and ESB. While it might be a development you do not like but it is still a considerable development.

Anyway, I did not say ROTJ is overall the best in terms of character development. I just said that Luke’s and Vader’s character development are individually better than anything seen in ANH or ESB.

Luke doesn’t change much? Seriously? You throw out a pretty part of the story. I think this guy…

You are unable to differentiate between current state of the character due to some external “disturbance” and actual change/development of character. That scene is just Luke still being shocked due to the reveal and due to trauma related to his damn limb being cut off. So what exactly are the actions and dialogue he makes after that scene that indicate any difference (within ESB of course)? In the one scene that is left after that one I do not see any change of character.

I disagree. For one a person who experiences trauma is never the same after such an external “disturbance”. This is the very nature of trauma, and Luke experienced trauma in more ways than just physical injury. He went to Cloud City, believing he might be able to save his friends from the clutches of the man who murdered his father, only to come up one hand short, and discovering that his noble hero father is the ultimate bad guy. A man is, what he believes in, and everything Luke believed, has turned out to be a lie. I would call that a life changing event. The Luke at the end of TESB definitely is no longer the naive young rebel he was at the start of the film. He is now a Jedi in training, who’s life has been turned upside down. The idea that he would just get a new hand, and go on as if nothing has happened (which is what you seem to suggest) is ludricous to me.

I do not necessary disagree with with your assumptions, but if we look at the dry facts, in the one scene that is left in ESB there is nothing that indicates any change in character. There are no actions or dialogue that would indicate so.

He decides to make a jump that could have killed him. For example.

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MalàStrana said:

imperialscum said:

DrDre said:

imperialscum said:

DrDre said:

imperialscum said:

DrDre said:

imperialscum said:

ROTJ had some of the best character development in OT. While Han’s character development in ESB was great, I think Luke’s and Vader’s character developments in ROTJ were even a level above that.

I disagree. The Luke/Vader arc was great, but it was the only significant arc in the film. The other characters were just going through the motions, shells of their former selfs. TESB had great arcs for all the main characters. Every character was in a very different place personally at the end of the second installment from where they started off. This puts TESB miles ahead of ROTJ in the character development department.

Different place in terms of character? Not entirely true. For example, Luke does not actually change much in ESB. He is still this enthusiastic and reckless guy as he was at the beginning. He leaves Yoda’s training pretty much the same person (recklessly nonetheless). Leia again does not change much besides finally revealing her feelings to Han. The only one with a significant change is Han’s character. It is unfortunate that Lucas made Leia proclaim her love to Han already in ESB. I think iff he would leave that for ROTJ, those two character could be used way better in ROTJ.

In ROTJ Luke becomes completely different person compared to ANH and ESB. Same goes for Vader. While Vader was likeable and badass in ANH and ESB, he was pretty one dimensional. In ROTJ his character get a lot of depth and becomes very interesting. Even Leia and Han actually get development in ROTJ and are considerably different compared to ANH and ESB. While it might be a development you do not like but it is still a considerable development.

Anyway, I did not say ROTJ is overall the best in terms of character development. I just said that Luke’s and Vader’s character development are individually better than anything seen in ANH or ESB.

Luke doesn’t change much? Seriously? You throw out a pretty part of the story. I think this guy…

You are unable to differentiate between current state of the character due to some external “disturbance” and actual change/development of character. That scene is just Luke still being shocked due to the reveal and due to trauma related to his damn limb being cut off. So what exactly are the actions and dialogue he makes after that scene that indicate any difference (within ESB of course)? In the one scene that is left after that one I do not see any change of character.

I disagree. For one a person who experiences trauma is never the same after such an external “disturbance”. This is the very nature of trauma, and Luke experienced trauma in more ways than just physical injury. He went to Cloud City, believing he might be able to save his friends from the clutches of the man who murdered his father, only to come up one hand short, and discovering that his noble hero father is the ultimate bad guy. A man is, what he believes in, and everything Luke believed, has turned out to be a lie. I would call that a life changing event. The Luke at the end of TESB definitely is no longer the naive young rebel he was at the start of the film. He is now a Jedi in training, who’s life has been turned upside down. The idea that he would just get a new hand, and go on as if nothing has happened (which is what you seem to suggest) is ludricous to me.

I do not necessary disagree with with your assumptions, but if we look at the dry facts, in the one scene that is left in ESB there is nothing that indicates any change in character. There are no actions or dialogue that would indicate so.

He decides to make a jump that could have killed him. For example.

And how did that develop/change the character? It is just another act of recklessness that we have seen so many before and is pretty much Luke’s pre-ROTJ trademark.

真実

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imperialscum said:

MalàStrana said:

imperialscum said:

DrDre said:

imperialscum said:

DrDre said:

imperialscum said:

DrDre said:

imperialscum said:

ROTJ had some of the best character development in OT. While Han’s character development in ESB was great, I think Luke’s and Vader’s character developments in ROTJ were even a level above that.

I disagree. The Luke/Vader arc was great, but it was the only significant arc in the film. The other characters were just going through the motions, shells of their former selfs. TESB had great arcs for all the main characters. Every character was in a very different place personally at the end of the second installment from where they started off. This puts TESB miles ahead of ROTJ in the character development department.

Different place in terms of character? Not entirely true. For example, Luke does not actually change much in ESB. He is still this enthusiastic and reckless guy as he was at the beginning. He leaves Yoda’s training pretty much the same person (recklessly nonetheless). Leia again does not change much besides finally revealing her feelings to Han. The only one with a significant change is Han’s character. It is unfortunate that Lucas made Leia proclaim her love to Han already in ESB. I think iff he would leave that for ROTJ, those two character could be used way better in ROTJ.

In ROTJ Luke becomes completely different person compared to ANH and ESB. Same goes for Vader. While Vader was likeable and badass in ANH and ESB, he was pretty one dimensional. In ROTJ his character get a lot of depth and becomes very interesting. Even Leia and Han actually get development in ROTJ and are considerably different compared to ANH and ESB. While it might be a development you do not like but it is still a considerable development.

Anyway, I did not say ROTJ is overall the best in terms of character development. I just said that Luke’s and Vader’s character development are individually better than anything seen in ANH or ESB.

Luke doesn’t change much? Seriously? You throw out a pretty part of the story. I think this guy…

You are unable to differentiate between current state of the character due to some external “disturbance” and actual change/development of character. That scene is just Luke still being shocked due to the reveal and due to trauma related to his damn limb being cut off. So what exactly are the actions and dialogue he makes after that scene that indicate any difference (within ESB of course)? In the one scene that is left after that one I do not see any change of character.

I disagree. For one a person who experiences trauma is never the same after such an external “disturbance”. This is the very nature of trauma, and Luke experienced trauma in more ways than just physical injury. He went to Cloud City, believing he might be able to save his friends from the clutches of the man who murdered his father, only to come up one hand short, and discovering that his noble hero father is the ultimate bad guy. A man is, what he believes in, and everything Luke believed, has turned out to be a lie. I would call that a life changing event. The Luke at the end of TESB definitely is no longer the naive young rebel he was at the start of the film. He is now a Jedi in training, who’s life has been turned upside down. The idea that he would just get a new hand, and go on as if nothing has happened (which is what you seem to suggest) is ludricous to me.

I do not necessary disagree with with your assumptions, but if we look at the dry facts, in the one scene that is left in ESB there is nothing that indicates any change in character. There are no actions or dialogue that would indicate so.

He decides to make a jump that could have killed him. For example.

And how did that develop/change the character? It is just another act of recklessness that we have seen so many before and is pretty much Luke’s pre-ROTJ trademark.

It’s not recklessness; it’s nobility. Luke would rather subject himself to likely death than to turn to the dark side.

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Indeed. Luke has failed Yoda twice already (the cave, Bespin) but he doesn’t want to take his father’s path. Luke has changed… and his father begins to change as well (does he kill Piett at the end like he “should” do it ? No, he just walks away).

(it’s the difference between a very good movie - ROTJ - and a masterpiece - TESB)

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 (Edited)

yhwx said:

imperialscum said:

MalàStrana said:

imperialscum said:

DrDre said:

imperialscum said:

DrDre said:

imperialscum said:

DrDre said:

imperialscum said:

ROTJ had some of the best character development in OT. While Han’s character development in ESB was great, I think Luke’s and Vader’s character developments in ROTJ were even a level above that.

I disagree. The Luke/Vader arc was great, but it was the only significant arc in the film. The other characters were just going through the motions, shells of their former selfs. TESB had great arcs for all the main characters. Every character was in a very different place personally at the end of the second installment from where they started off. This puts TESB miles ahead of ROTJ in the character development department.

Different place in terms of character? Not entirely true. For example, Luke does not actually change much in ESB. He is still this enthusiastic and reckless guy as he was at the beginning. He leaves Yoda’s training pretty much the same person (recklessly nonetheless). Leia again does not change much besides finally revealing her feelings to Han. The only one with a significant change is Han’s character. It is unfortunate that Lucas made Leia proclaim her love to Han already in ESB. I think iff he would leave that for ROTJ, those two character could be used way better in ROTJ.

In ROTJ Luke becomes completely different person compared to ANH and ESB. Same goes for Vader. While Vader was likeable and badass in ANH and ESB, he was pretty one dimensional. In ROTJ his character get a lot of depth and becomes very interesting. Even Leia and Han actually get development in ROTJ and are considerably different compared to ANH and ESB. While it might be a development you do not like but it is still a considerable development.

Anyway, I did not say ROTJ is overall the best in terms of character development. I just said that Luke’s and Vader’s character development are individually better than anything seen in ANH or ESB.

Luke doesn’t change much? Seriously? You throw out a pretty part of the story. I think this guy…

You are unable to differentiate between current state of the character due to some external “disturbance” and actual change/development of character. That scene is just Luke still being shocked due to the reveal and due to trauma related to his damn limb being cut off. So what exactly are the actions and dialogue he makes after that scene that indicate any difference (within ESB of course)? In the one scene that is left after that one I do not see any change of character.

I disagree. For one a person who experiences trauma is never the same after such an external “disturbance”. This is the very nature of trauma, and Luke experienced trauma in more ways than just physical injury. He went to Cloud City, believing he might be able to save his friends from the clutches of the man who murdered his father, only to come up one hand short, and discovering that his noble hero father is the ultimate bad guy. A man is, what he believes in, and everything Luke believed, has turned out to be a lie. I would call that a life changing event. The Luke at the end of TESB definitely is no longer the naive young rebel he was at the start of the film. He is now a Jedi in training, who’s life has been turned upside down. The idea that he would just get a new hand, and go on as if nothing has happened (which is what you seem to suggest) is ludricous to me.

I do not necessary disagree with with your assumptions, but if we look at the dry facts, in the one scene that is left in ESB there is nothing that indicates any change in character. There are no actions or dialogue that would indicate so.

He decides to make a jump that could have killed him. For example.

And how did that develop/change the character? It is just another act of recklessness that we have seen so many before and is pretty much Luke’s pre-ROTJ trademark.

It’s not recklessness; it’s nobility. Luke would rather subject himself to likely death than to turn to the dark side.

Call it whatever you like, however it is essentially the same old mindset we have seen before. The “nobility” when he decides to go on a suicide mission instead of leaving with Han full of money. The same old “nobility” when he decides to leave the training at Yoda to “save” his friends. The same old “nobility” when he decides to go for another friend-saving adventure instead of going back to Yoda. Very little change of character before ROTJ.

真実

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 (Edited)

MalàStrana said:

Indeed. Luke has failed Yoda twice already (the cave, Bespin) but he doesn’t want to take his father’s path. Luke has changed… and his father begins to change as well (does he kill Piett at the end like he “should” do it ? No, he just walks away).

Did he go back to Yoda after that? No, he failed Yoda again by deciding to go on another “friend-saving” adventure just at the end of ESB.

Regarding Piett, it is my speculation against yours, but I think at that point Vader was in a different world and just did not care about such a petty thing. I doubt he spared him because he suddenly became a “better person”.

真実

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 (Edited)

imperialscum said:

MalàStrana said:

He decides to make a jump that could have killed him. For example.

And how did that develop/change the character? It is just another act of recklessness…

I’ll add to Mala’s point and say I don’t think he saw it as a fall that could have killed him. I think from the look of resignation on his face, he saw it as a fall he knew would kill him. I think it’s significant character development. He sees only two ways out: death or give in to Vader. It’s subtle in its execution (to the audience) but it’s far from the reckless kid we met in Star Wars. He’s willing (and attempts) to make the ultimate sacrifice to beat Vader and he makes peace with that decision. Nowhere near reckless.

  • edit - What Alderaan said.
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