'Raiders of the Lost Ark' - bluray and colour timing changes (Released) — Page 15

I always wonder how that's done, removing logos that is.

Nice to hear though!

And you did all this in after effects or Premiere?

Excellent, thanks Harmy :)

AntcuFaalb said:

Update: Harmy removed the burned-in South America 1936 Japanese subtitles beautifully, so that's done!

 I'm pretty sure there's a WOWOW Channel Logo you'll want him to remove from the Nepal scene.

You'd be correct...

Starting at 29:55:00

http://postimg.org/image/51632tarx/

captainsolo said:

I noticed the color in TOD comes across differently, especially the deep reds inside the temple itself. Think I'll find a used BD set eventually.

It has been said the WS LD was remixed, but nothing I have found points to this. Some claimed a few sound effects were different, but I haven't found any. This track has music panning not in the DVD 5.1 which was created from the 70mm mix. Perhaps it could be either the Dolby original or abandoned VistaSonic original mix which was supposed to have mixed in stereo surrounds. Either way it would be helpful to compare against the old pan n' scan disc for differences.

I'm pretty sure the reflection is fully there. There might be a way of incorporating that single element with upscaling along with the rods but I agree the resolution loss would be very great. Of course we nitpick here, as it is part of the OT membership card. ;)

Glad to see this thread is alive again. The LD audio is the 35mm dolby mix to my ear. If anyone knows of suspected differences let me know, I have 2 different recordings of the audio made in theaters during the original 1981 release I can check. The only remix I am aware of on any release is the Blu-ray. I believe the wowow and DVD are the 70mm mix.

There is also the considerably different alternate mix used on Super 8mm and certain 16mm prints, which would be great to include on any planned release. I have the 15 minute Super 8mm version, but it's not the full film. I am working on a release of the Super 8 version.

AntcuFaalb said:

I've now done lots of still comparisons with WOWOW vs. grade-matched BD and I can honestly say that the WOWOW, surprisingly, has more detail.

The software I use for the MatchGrade also has a basic image registration algorithm, so the stills used for my comparison were spatially aligned rather well.

The difference is striking.

I'd like to despecialize the WOWOW, but I can't without access to that 10 year old 1080i MPEG-2 ABC TV broadcast version capture. I'm still digging, but I haven't had any luck yet.

For now we may have to settle on the 2003 "enhanced" version.

I still have to remove the burned-in JP subs from those shots. I may seek outside help to get it done well.

 I'm pretty convinced that the wowow was the original restoration of the film and was used as the basis for the blu-ray color re-grade. Mostly likely they had planned to release it, but someone decided it needed a more "modern" color scheme or just something to make it look different and newer. Whatever the rationale, they inconsistently applied DNR and the orange/gold haze which actually reduced detail. They messed with the gamma and ended up crushing blacks a bit and blowing out whites, especially in the extreme contrasts of the ark opening sequence. Then they attempted to compensate for that by dialing down the highs, resulting in blown out whites being reduced to a dull grayish white. On top of that is a rather odd remix with re-balanced sound effects and music in the surrounds which sounds like it's in a cavern. There are places where the blu looks nice, but overall it's a messy, botched job which certainly doesn't reflect the look of the film. I'm just glad we have the wowow.

captainsolo said:

PDB does your analog track match the DVD or the WS LD on the staff drop? I've long been curious about that. Of course I just now went back and re-compared the two. The DVD has one sound of the stick hitting, and the LD has it roll around slightly.

The rest sounds the same but the WS LD mix has a potency that isn't in the 5.1. I don't know how to explain it exactly but it packs a lot more punch overall. Additionally the score has some directionality that isn't in the discrete version.

 I'll dig out my recordings of the 1981 release and check the staff drop when I have some time. 

jero32 said:

As you can see the pictures suggest a somewhat warm picture. Due to the quality we can draw no 100% right conclusion. I stil think however that the bluray was meant to mimmick the 35mm with a warmer (as in an 80's) bulb used to project it.

Edit: pictures provided by Harmy, had to check if he was ok with me mentioning that.

And last I saw it projected 35mm Dolby A-type was 2002 and it wasn't using an 80's lamp. Looked about the same it did from 70mm 6track Dolby at the local to 35mm optical in smaller screens over the 80's till maybe '84 was last time I saw in the '80's. Then gap between the '90's nope. Surprised to see it again 2002 Triple bill well almost. The films was divided up into individual showings over 3 weeks a rather crappy way of doing I think.

Raiders, was picture wise good for its age. Included the old "A" certificate that alone was priceless it was like being transported back in time. optical soundtrack the chap I spoke to experimented by using Dolby SR rather than A-type and sounded fine. 

Temple of Doom, was okay minus the grim "chest" scenes but was still enjoyable.

Last Crusade, was fine. Nothing can beat pure film with brilliance of pure light projecting it onto the screen.

captainsolo said:

Also if you could, can you check the under the truck sequence to see if any feature the "think I'm dumb?" line when Indy inserts the whip handle? That very rarely pops up, and is also on the same DVD interview clips.

I agree litemakr that the WOWOW appears to be the basis for the re-timed and remixed "restored version". To be honest I've been afraid to fully dig into the new Ben Burtt mix.

The line from the truck sequence is from the alternate mix used for Super 8mm and 16mm prints. My Super 8 version has it. I'll double check the tapes to be sure but I'm pretty certain it's not there.

The alternate mix is also the base music and effects tracks for most of the foreign mixes. The French mix on the DVD and several on the Blu use it. There are a lot of differences in sound effects and music editing. For some reason they used the monophonic version of this mix on all of the DVD special features. I'd love to have a full copy of the english version.

Does it also have Jock with an American accent? The actor was American, but the standard mix has him with an almost British-sounding accent (like with Aunt Beru, it was probably ADR by the actual actor but doing a different accent)

fixthepicture said:

jero32 said:

As you can see the pictures suggest a somewhat warm picture. Due to the quality we can draw no 100% right conclusion. I stil think however that the bluray was meant to mimmick the 35mm with a warmer (as in an 80's) bulb used to project it.

Edit: pictures provided by Harmy, had to check if he was ok with me mentioning that.

And last I saw it projected 35mm Dolby A-type was 2002 and it wasn't using an 80's lamp. Looked about the same it did from 70mm 6track Dolby at the local to 35mm optical in smaller screens over the 80's till maybe '84 was last time I saw in the '80's. Then gap between the '90's nope. Surprised to see it again 2002 Triple bill well almost. The films was divided up into individual showings over 3 weeks a rather crappy way of doing I think.

Raiders, was picture wise good for its age. Included the old "A" certificate that alone was priceless it was like being transported back in time. optical soundtrack the chap I spoke to experimented by using Dolby SR rather than A-type and sounded fine. 

Temple of Doom, was okay minus the grim "chest" scenes but was still enjoyable.

Last Crusade, was fine. Nothing can beat pure film with brilliance of pure light projecting it onto the screen.

 PCC? Was Raiders Yellow or Green? 

TServo2049 said:

Does it also have Jock with an American accent? The actor was American, but the standard mix has him with an almost British-sounding accent (like with Aunt Beru, it was probably ADR by the actual actor but doing a different accent)

 Unfortunately that scene is not in the super 8 version. But I know what you are talking about.

litemakr said:

captainsolo said:

PDB does your analog track match the DVD or the WS LD on the staff drop? I've long been curious about that. Of course I just now went back and re-compared the two. The DVD has one sound of the stick hitting, and the LD has it roll around slightly.

The rest sounds the same but the WS LD mix has a potency that isn't in the 5.1. I don't know how to explain it exactly but it packs a lot more punch overall. Additionally the score has some directionality that isn't in the discrete version.

 I'll dig out my recordings of the 1981 release and check the staff drop when I have some time. 

I finally found my tapes. Here is a link to a .wav file with 2 different recordings of the staff drop from 1981 screenings of Raiders. They both sound the same to me. These are from the the theatrical dolby stereo mix, which I *thought* was used for the LD.

https://www.sendspace.com/file/vz81c2

However, when I listen to these tracks and compare to the DVD and LD, the LD is the one that sounds different, not the DVD. From what I can tell, the theatrical dolby mix, the DVD, the blu-ray, the foreign/alternate mix and the Wowow mix all have the same sound effect. But the LD is definitely different. 

The LD also has a slight difference which I have only heard on the blu-ray mix. During the ark opening scene, when the generator starts to overheat there is a screeching mechanical sound before the lights explode. On most mixes the sound comes in cleanly, but on the LD and blu-ray mixes, it is combined with a wind sound. 

I always assumed that the LD was the dolby mix but that doesn't seem to be the case since the LD doesn't match the theatrical Dolby mix or the 6 track mix (DVD and Wowow).

schorman13 said:

I have completed bit-perfect digital audio rips of both the US LBX edition LD and the Japanese FS LD with digital sound.  I can confirm that the Japanese disc has the original staff-drop sound effect found on the dvd and bd.  Both have been synced to the Blu Ray and are ready to go.  

Let me know if these are still needed, and I can post them to myspleen, along with Temple of Doom and Last Crusade.

 That would be absolutely fantastic!  Thanks, schorman!

Here are a few frames of the Raiders bluray matched to the the 16mm and 35 mm frames PDB posted a while ago, with a color matching algorithm I developed:

Bluray:

Bluray matched to 16 mm:

Bluray matched to 35 mm: