'Raiders of the Lost Ark' - bluray and colour timing changes (Released) — Page 11

litemakr said:

kk650 said:

PDB said:

Hey kk650 I'd love to look at your regrade. You have any comparison pics?

I do. With the V2 release I really adjusted fleshtones more than anything, I felt they were far too red on the blu-ray, making everybody look sunburned. The overall warm feel remains similar to the blu-ray though. Here are four screencap comparisons:

http://www.screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/85227

http://www.screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/85228

http://www.screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/85229

http://www.screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/85230

Very much looking forward to your Alien, Aliens and Blade Runner projects BTW, they're what i'm looking forward to most on this site :)

The problem with regrading the blu ray is that some shots are so washed out or over exposed that is it impossible to recover the detail. In some spots the skin is so orange that details such as cuts and wounds are muted beyond recovery. You would be better off regrading the wowow because it doesn't have that problem for the most part. 

The wowow release has numerous problems of its own. Both releases have their issues. It really comes down to preferences, balancing the pros and cons of each and accepting the compromises that come with that choice. I tried regrading both releases and found that I prefered the blu-ray as the base from which to start from. In all honesty I can't remember exactly why I decided against using the wowow release, I think it had something to do with it looking too digital compared to the blu-ray and the fleshtones that felt really off, too purpleish if I remember correctly.

The blu-ray just felt more accurate somehow, like there was a specific intention on the filmmakers part that the film look this way, while the wowow release almost felt ungraded and too like what what the scenes actually looked like on set when they were originally shot on film in many places, rather than being part of a consistant colour scheme that was added later. This was of course before i'd seen any 35mm frames which seem to lean towards the blu-ray's colour scheme rather than the more natural ungraded look of the wowow release.

So yeah, of course the blu-ray's far from perfect, I wish they'd been a lot more subtle adding that reddish yellow blanket tint so a lot more of the original colours were intact, but in this case with a bit of help fixing the fleshtones so they're more healthy looking, its the lesser of two evils, at least for me. I respect everybody that prefers the wowow release though, it has enough positives compared to the blu-ray that I can see why many would prefer it.

Team Negative1's scan of a Raider's rerelease trailer leans more to the colors of the wowwow I think. Would this be accurate to how the actual film looked?

Handman said:

Team Negative1's scan of a Raider's rerelease trailer leans more to the colors of the wowwow I think. Would this be accurate to how the actual film looked?

From previous experience i've found the colour grading of trailers to be very unreliable in terms of knowing how the film will end up looking in the cinema.

For example i've got all the trailers of Fellowship of the Ring and they look very different in terms of colour to both the theatrical and extended blu-ray releases of Fellowship of the Ring, so trailers can't really be used as a reliable guide for what the films looked like in the cinema IMHO. Which is kind of a shame because a lot of the time I find myself prefering the colour grading of the trailers compared to the official blu-rays.

kk650 said:

litemakr said:

kk650 said:

PDB said:

Hey kk650 I'd love to look at your regrade. You have any comparison pics?

I do. With the V2 release I really adjusted fleshtones more than anything, I felt they were far too red on the blu-ray, making everybody look sunburned. The overall warm feel remains similar to the blu-ray though. Here are four screencap comparisons:

http://www.screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/85227

http://www.screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/85228

http://www.screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/85229

http://www.screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/85230

Very much looking forward to your Alien, Aliens and Blade Runner projects BTW, they're what i'm looking forward to most on this site :)

The problem with regrading the blu ray is that some shots are so washed out or over exposed that is it impossible to recover the detail. In some spots the skin is so orange that details such as cuts and wounds are muted beyond recovery. You would be better off regrading the wowow because it doesn't have that problem for the most part. 

The wowow release has numerous problems of its own. Both releases have their issues. It really comes down to preferences, balancing the pros and cons of each and accepting the compromises that come with that choice. I tried regrading both releases and found that I prefered the blu-ray as the base from which to start from. In all honesty I can't remember exactly why I decided against using the wowow release, I think it had something to do with it looking too digital compared to the blu-ray and the fleshtones that felt really off, too purpleish if I remember correctly.

The blu-ray just felt more accurate somehow, like there was a specific intention on the filmmakers part that the film look this way, while the wowow release almost felt ungraded and too like what what the scenes actually looked like on set when they were originally shot on film in many places, rather than being part of a consistant colour scheme that was added later. This was of course before i'd seen any 35mm frames which seem to lean towards the blu-ray's colour scheme rather than the more natural ungraded look of the wowow release.

So yeah, of course the blu-ray's far from perfect, I wish they'd been a lot more subtle adding that reddish yellow blanket tint so a lot more of the original colours were intact, but in this case with a bit of help fixing the fleshtones so they're more healthy looking, its the lesser of two evils, at least for me. I respect everybody that prefers the wowow release though, it has enough positives compared to the blu-ray that I can see why many would prefer it.

Well like I said, you can't retrieve detail from blown out highlights so the wowow will always win for me on that alone. Plus it has the original sound mix.  I'm pretty convinced both are created from the same scan. The wowow was probably the initial restoration, and then the color was tweaked for the blu-ray. Wowow is closer to all of the screenings I have seen and the super 8 print I own. And the previous home video versions which were created from low contrast prints containing the original timing. In fact there is nothing, no home video version, behind the scenes feature, trailer, tv commercial, frame blowups in making of books or anywhere else, which match the blu ray color. To me it seems very obvious it is revisionist (and a bit sloppy). 

In fact, the official trailer released to tout the blu-ray release which demonstrates the restoration, does NOT use the blu-ray colors. That's the wowow color. Whites are white, flesh tones are reddish, not orange, there's no orange haze or blown out skies. Check out the blue sky behind the swordsman. 

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=raiders+lost+ark+blu+ray

Curiously the behind the scenes footage DOES have the orange haze applied, as it does on the blu-ray. And of course this makes no sense at all because the behind the scenes footage has never looked like that (nor should it). They didn't apply it to the 1981 making of, however. Speaking of which, the film clips in the 1981 special don't have the blu-ray color either...

kk650 said:

PDB said:

Hey kk650 I'd love to look at your regrade. You have any comparison pics?

I do. With the V2 release I really adjusted fleshtones more than anything, I felt they were far too red on the blu-ray, making everybody look sunburned. The overall warm feel remains similar to the blu-ray though. Here are four screencap comparisons:

http://www.screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/85227

http://www.screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/85228

http://www.screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/85229

http://www.screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/85230

Very much looking forward to your Alien, Aliens and Blade Runner projects BTW, they're what i'm looking forward to most on this site :)

 kk650, I like your regrade. It's kind of in keeping with with what I was talking about in this thread, that the orange might be a bad representation of a yellow/gold tint gone bad. I'm going to download a copy and give it a whirl. I think we can all agree the more choices, the better.

Again outside of colors I do agree with litemkr that the wowow is a better transfer from a technical standpoint but you go with the best transfer for your project. 

(Unrelated and not trying to thread crap I did do an update in the Alien regrade thread about it's current status. Kk650, Id like to send you a copy sometime in the future to get your opinion since you have done a ton of regrades and done a regrade of Alien in particular if I recall)

Does anyone know where I can view the scan of the Raiders trailer?

PDB said:

Does anyone know where I can view the scan of the Raiders trailer?

 It is an extra on Team Negative1's release of their 35mm scan of Empire. It can be found in the usual places.

PDB said:

 

Does anyone know where I can view the scan of the Raiders trailer?

 http://thestarwarstrilogy.com/starwars/post/2014/12/02/Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark-35mm-Trailer-in-HD

You can download a 1080p version there. Def doesn't look like the blu ray. More brown/red than wowow but not orange ;)

Looks a lot like my super 8 version

The trailer will not be fully timed

Handman said:

PDB said:

Does anyone know where I can view the scan of the Raiders trailer?

 It is an extra on Team Negative1's release of their 35mm scan of Empire. It can be found in the usual places.

litemakr said:

PDB said:

 

Does anyone know where I can view the scan of the Raiders trailer?

 http://thestarwarstrilogy.com/starwars/post/2014/12/02/Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark-35mm-Trailer-in-HD

You can download a 1080p version there. Def doesn't look like the blu ray. More brown/red than wowow but not orange ;)

Looks a lot like my super 8 version

Thanks guys. 

PDB said:

(Unrelated and not trying to thread crap I did do an update in the Alien regrade thread about it's current status. Kk650, Id like to send you a copy sometime in the future to get your opinion since you have done a ton of regrades and done a regrade of Alien in particular if I recall)

If you upload it someplace where I can download it fairly easily i'd be very happy to watch it and give you my thoughts. Very much looking forward to it. :)

dvdmike said:

The trailer will not be fully timed

 Normally I'd agree, but isn't this for the rerelease? Wouldn't it make sense if that was made from some sort of timed print? (interpositive or whatever step along the way that would make sense)

From memory the jungle scenes look pretty close to the bluray, but I'd like to see a side by side comparison.

jero32 said:

dvdmike said:

The trailer will not be fully timed

 Normally I'd agree, but isn't this for the rerelease? Wouldn't it make sense if that was made from some sort of timed print? (interpositive or whatever step along the way that would make sense)

From memory the jungle scenes look pretty close to the bluray, but I'd like to see a side by side comparison.

I would say these are timed because this a re-release trailer and they would have pulled the scenes from a release print, not the original neg or alternate takes. 

Jungle scenes are closer to Wowow with a touch more brown. The blu-ray is over saturated and has crushed blacks and too much orange. Raven bar interior doesn't match blu or wowow, the walls are a lighter gray, but skin tones are close to wowow. DVD is actually a better match. DVD is also a better match to truck chase, followed by wowow and then blu. Indy on the sub is wowow or DVD, that scene looks awful on the blu. The canyon looks closest to the DVD, then wowow. Only one shot from the Ark opening (which is the biggest mess of the blu-ray) but wowow and DVD by far, the color/gamma on the blu is a disaster.

I made some comparison screenshots. Not all of them match the exact frames, but I think its close enough.

http://imgur.com/a/scLqM

edit: If someone could provide wowow screenies, that'd be great.

I uploaded a number of shots

http://imgur.com/a/PiiBH

Order:

Trailer, Wowow, Blu

(Altar shot is Trailer, Wowow, DVD, Blu)

Interesting that wowow and blu are pretty close in some shots and very different in others. Just shows how inconsistent the blu is IMO. Viewing full size makes the differences more apparent. The wowow always wins in terms of gamma and sharpness. The blu is hazy and less crisp.

One thing to notice is how overexposed the ark opening scene is on the blu. Look at the lack of details in the sand, curtains, smoke, sparks and other light details. It appears they overexposed it, then tried to correct it by dulling the highlights. The whole scene is messed up, pretty severely in some shots. The DVD presents that scene the best in terms of gamma/contrast. I'll post more screenshots later.

I didn't realise the DVD was different from the wowow. Interesting.

rockin said:

I didn't realise the DVD was different from the wowow. Interesting.

It is a completely different timing but closer to wowow. It has the most accurate contrast/gamma. No overexposed highlights or crushed blacks. Nothing else looks like the blu-ray timing. I suspect the blu is the wowow version tweaked to try and fit the orange/teal "modern" look.

I noticed your trailer shot seems different from the one I'm using? (the one I'm using is from the grindhouse release "extras")

yours:
http://i.imgur.com/2Mw2Bhl.png

Mine:
http://i.imgur.com/iRSlB6n.jpg

The weird thing is that mine is closer to the bluray, and yours is closer to the dvd?

jero32 said:

I noticed your trailer shot seems different from the one I'm using? (the one I'm using is from the grindhouse release "extras")

yours:
http://i.imgur.com/2Mw2Bhl.png

Mine:
http://i.imgur.com/iRSlB6n.jpg

The weird thing is that mine is closer to the bluray, and yours is closer to the dvd?

 Mine is from here (1080p version):

 http://thestarwarstrilogy.com/starwars/post/2014/12/02/Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark-35mm-Trailer-in-HD

That is the one we were discussing earlier in the thread. 

Weird. Is it the same scan? Just with more color work done on one?

Mine was the one included on the ESB grindhouse release extras.

jero32 said:

Weird. Is it the same scan? Just with more color work done on one?

Mine was the one included on the ESB grindhouse release extras.

I don't have that release. It appears the one you used has the saturation increased but hard to say.

This is a comparison I made to demonstrate exposure/gamma problems during the Ark opening sequence. That is by far the most botched scene on the blu-ray. It is kind of shocking how bad some of the shots are once you see how they are supposed to look and how much detail is lost. Wowow is better but still has problems. The DVD has the best exposure and matches the look of the laserdisc.

This also shows a digital tweak to the blu-ray I haven't seen discussed elsewhere.

Note that the descriptions refer to the screenshot below them, not above. I am curious to hear what people think. 

http://imgur.com/a/BnYld

AntcuFaalb said:

litemakr said:

I suspect the blu is the wowow version tweaked to try and fit the orange/teal "modern" look.

Wasn't the BD made from an entirely new 4K scan of the negative?

Also, it doesn't look orange/teal to me. It looks gold tinted.

 I am beginning to doubt it was new at all 

litemakr said:

 on the blu-ray. It is kind of shocking how bad some of the shots are once you see how they are supposed to look and how much detail is lost.

 But...we dont KNOW what its supposed to look like. (In fact, with a lot of negative1's scans turning out so dark. I'm starting to think theatrical prints weren't very good at detailed blacks. It'd be nice if a guy with actual experience with this stuff could chime in on that.) That's kind of why we're posting screenshots of trailers and stuff isn't it?

Overexposure and such can all be used as an effect.

I agree its more gold (with some red so thats why its orange) tinted than blue/teal.

edit: about the wowow being a different master. I might be wrong, but didnt screenshot comparisons not match up exactly? Since film will move a bit in the scanner typically right? (So you'll never get a 100% identical scan, although it might be close) That suggests its a different scan.

AntcuFaalb said:

litemakr said:

I suspect the blu is the wowow version tweaked to try and fit the orange/teal "modern" look.

Wasn't the BD made from an entirely new 4K scan of the negative?

Also, it doesn't look orange/teal to me. It looks gold tinted.

That's what they claim but it doesn't make sense that they would scan and fully restore twice within a couple of years. And they didn't specify when the scan was made, just that it was the camera neg. All other home video releases used IPs or prints. The same company did both (Laser Pacific did the wowow and then Technicolor bought them and did the blu-ray color). Most likely the wowow was the original Laser Pacific restoration and then the color was tweaked for the blu ray. It is very telling that the original trailer for the blu-ray restoration uses the wowow color, not the blu-ray color.

Looking at the comparison I did for the ark opening it certainly appears to me that the blu-ray is a tweaked version of the wowow: 

http://imgur.com/a/BnYld