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ROTJ is worse than I remember.

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I refuse to buy the box set. However, I did feel the need to rent it so I could see exactly how good (or bad, depending on your point of view) the restoration is.

For the purposes of this discussion, I'm ignoring the major changes/additions included in the 97 SEs and the 2004 versions; this includes the new errors introduced as well (swapped surrounds, poorly done lightsabers, etc.). I'm looking at the films with occasional blinders in place and am pretending the changes never happened, trying to enjoy what hasn't been molested.

I watched ANH first. It was awesome to see the first film in such great shape. Thankfully, the content has held up well also. I really enjoyed the experience that is ANH--so much so that I watched it several times over the course of several days.

I watched ESB about a week later. AWESOME. I love ESB. ANH is great because it came first, but ESB has better writing, better acting, and better directing.

Earlier this week, I finally managed to squeeze in ROTJ. I was excited going in, but my excitement gave way to the same nausea I get when I watch Ep. I. Han is now comic relief, the cinematography is crap (flat and lifeless compared to the depth and richness of ESB), and for the first time it occurred to me that the Empire built several gaping holes in the new Death Star so Rebel ships could fly directly into the core and blow it up. And just as with Ep. I, the great fight at the end is satisfying, but it's the same kind of satisfaction you get from eating Chinese food. It's filling at the time, but leaves you wanting later on.

I'll continue to watch all three movies in order as I always have. I'm a completist by nature; I can't watch FOTR without following it up with TTT and ROTK either. But ROTJ will always feel like I'm watching it because I have to, not because I really want to.
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MTFBWY…A

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Interesting, and understandable. I agree that once you watch it objectively, it sort of loses a bit of its luster. While I really like ROTJ, the problem for me is that it hits a brick wall about an hour into the movie. They wander the forest, then they get captured, then they almost get roasted, then they befriend the ewoks, then they tell stories, blah blah blah. I usually find myself fast forwarding from Luke leaving Degobah until where Luke and Vader hook up on Endor. I wouldn't dream of fast forwarding through ANH or ESB.

On a side note, I always found the scene where the Executor slams into the death star to be the worst effect in the entire trilogy. I can't for the life of me understand how GL can decide other effects are antiquated while that one gets to stay.
40,000 million notches away
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I, too, have found it amazing how ROTJ loses its luster as the years go on. As a kid, ROTJ was my favorite. As I aged, ESB moved into that slot and has maintained it ever since. However, ANH moved beyond and, sadly, even AOTC is tied up there with it. I don't think TPM could ever be better, though.

ROTJ is a joke in many senses. I'll have to watch again for the Han comic relief stuff, but there was just something off about Jedi compared to Empire and Hope. I never could put a finger on it.

Blame the Ewoks. That's what I do. Makes me feel better.
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
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Kevin A
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Originally posted by: Jay
for the first time it occurred to me that the Empire built several gaping holes in the new Death Star so Rebel ships could fly directly into the core and blow it up.
Just for arguement sake, I'd like to offer this:

The Death Star was in the midst of being constructed. It makes sense that there would be large holes in the superstructure to facilitate the moving of large construction materials from the exterior to the interior. You don't, for example, start putting the glass windows on the outside of a building when the steel infrastructure of the building is still be welded/riveted together on the same level.
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It seems on the first run through, ROTJ is everyone's favorite. The suspense of the multiple storylines is just so darn exciting. ROTJ is the only one that I can actually remember the first time I saw it, and it blew me away. But I agree the thrill isn't as timeless as what makes ANH and ESB good.

That's awfully sad if it ever gets so old that it's not enjoyable anymore. I hope that doesn't happen to me...

ANH is my favorite. The acting and writing is worse, but as a whole it is so well put together. But next time I watch them I'll re-analyze them and have a new favorite. That's the way it goes.

if you can manage, try to go two or three years without watching them. It really breathes new life into the trilogy for you.
If you're going to take forever, then I'm having a hotdog!
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I remember seeing Jedi in the theater and loving it. I went with my family and some friends from my neighborhood. We went out for dinner at Wendys afterwards to discuss how much we loved the it. Around college, I started looking at movies with a more critical eye and I changed my thinking on Jedi slightly. I believe that New Hope and Empire Strikes Back are two of the best, if not the best, movies ever made any genre. They stand on their own without the rest of the movie. Return of the Jedi has some big flaws, but I still think it is a good, not great, movie. I love the redemption aspect allowing that even evil Darth Vader can be forgiven and redeemed. Too bad Lucas has now gone and destroyed the redemption with his changes to the DVD. While there are parts that seem out of place and some wild changes in tone, I still believe it works as a decent end to the saga and an entertaining movie.
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You're all crazy. Return of the Jedi rocks!

Not in the same wat ESB rocks (that is to say, out loud), but it's still a great movie, especially compared to the average pile of crap they call a "movie" today. And the Battle of Endor was possibly the most epic space battle ever recorded until 1996's Star Trek First Contact.

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Man, Chaltab, you and I got to get off the same page. I think I can just leave and trust that you'll say whatever I would say if I was actually here

But again I reiterate; if it's lost its magic, take some time off and come back. you ONCE liked it, right? I'm currently on Braveheart sabbatical, but pretty soon I'll go back and it will be rejuvenated in my mind.
If you're going to take forever, then I'm having a hotdog!
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I did take some time off of ROTJ and it hasn't regained any magic. If anything, it lost more. You gotta remember that this is comparing now to how we felt about it as children. To me, ANH and ESB gained more magic as I got older. ROTJ still lost it.

Oddly, I, too, am on Braveheart sabbatical. Haven't seen it in at least four years. Been meaning to watch it again.
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
-------------------------
Kevin A
Webmaster/Primary Cynic
kapgar.typepad.com
kapgar.com
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Braveheart's the one where Mel Gibson has the blue and white face and kills a bunch of people, right?

I hear it's good.

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That's the one. It is good.
If you're going to take forever, then I'm having a hotdog!
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What I love about ROTJ is after all the crap in ESB that separates the characters and makes their lives miserable, they are all back together. There's a warm feeling throughout the movie after Han is rescued from Jabba.

I love the scene on Dagobah with Yoda's death and Luke talking to Obi-Wan. Again, Obi-Wan there gives me a very warm feeling. I truly care about the characters, and basically the Endor scenes are all about the characters im my eyes, with the Ewoks there to basically advance the plot to the final battle.

After his absence in ANH and the brief holo appearance in ESB, the Emperor does not dissapoit in ROTJ. What a great character, and all scenes with him are awesome.

I truly believe that ROTJ is more about the characters than the actual war (for most of the movie). That's why it was originally ended the way it was, with the characters together. Now, with the celebration crap thrown in there, it loses some of that (and of course the Anakin switch, but to each his own).
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Whereas I've grown to love ESB as my favorite movie of all time (it was my least favorite SW film as a kid), I've always enjoyed ROTJ too. The Ewoks never offended me as much as they seemed to offend so many. Yes, wookiees would have been better, and yes, GL punked out to serve the kiddie crowd, which I now understand. But the Ewoks still don't offend me. Gungans offend me, but not Ewoks. Hayden not withstanding, the official DVD was the most enjoyable viewing of ROTJ I've seen yet.

Anyway, I found that on the DVD, for the first time in the history of ROTJ, the Rancor scene didn't look like complete crap. They clearly worked to remaster that whole sequence and it doesn't look like a giant blue screen mess anymore. Even the scene where Luke jams the bone it its mouth looks like it should have. This sequence was always the gut-wrencher for me, because it looked so horribly fake before. Now it looks on par with the rest of the FX in the trilogy. It doesn't look like it's been screwed with either. It just seems that the layers were color corrected and recomposited.

That said, I still want an unmolested OT version on DVD. Sometimes you just want to sing Lapti Nek and Yub Yub. Well, maybe not Yub Yub.
I am fluent in over six million forms of procrastination.
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Yes, but just as the Rancor scene looks great now, the lightsaber fight looks like absolute crap. At least every other shot has a messed up blade, if not more.
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But with top-notch video editors on our hands at these forums, certainly we can get special work done to include what is deemed the best for an ultimate DVD collection eventually.

Patience. Don't cave into the official DVDs. Hold out for a DVD from here.

My stance on revising fan edits.

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Why would I cave into the official DVDs? I hate the changes.
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Maybe the absurdly high-quality prints, the Excellent sound in ESB and ROTJ (and ANH, if you don't have surround sound) Or the fact that DVDs don't wearout as fast as VHS tapes....

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The biggest reason why I "cave" to the official DVDs, is that it gives me greater license to complain about what is wrong with them. When you are a paying customer, you have much more ground to stand on to get the defects changed (hence my post about my dealings with LFL, Fox, and the BBB). That is the very foundation of tort law. If you haven't paid for anything, then the company hasn't wronged you. You may be voting with your wallet, true, but in this real world, that vote doesn't add up to much, given the 100 million+ copies that have already flown off the shelves.

The second biggest reason, why I "cave" is to indulge in some of the great fan-provided material. Namely the OT rips and prequel reedits that are being created here. If you trade bootlegs of your favorite band, you're less likely to be hunted down by their legal eagles because you're more likely to have bought all of their official releases anyway. i.e. You're not affecting the bottom line. (Note: Pirating is something different than bootlegging and this is rightly a concern in Hollywood). However, if you engage in bootlegging without supporting the official releases, you're opening yourself to more legal action, frankly because bootlegging is illegal. If you have the legal argument "but I bought the legitimate, official copy anyway" they are likely to leave you alone and drop any charges. Nobody wants to sue or prosecute a customer in good standing (for fear of what the bad press could do). It's the customer who is stealing who will get the legal smackdown.

I am fluent in over six million forms of procrastination.
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As for ROTJ, I agree with the last couple posts. The emporer and his scenes are powerful enough to get me to keep coming back to the movie. As a whole, it doesn't retain the appeal for viewing after viewing, but there's enough in there. Maybe in a couple years I'll get to that point where its just boring...I hope not.

As for bootlegging, it appears we have some legal counsel on the forum. Digitalman, am I right in stating that you are allowed to own backup copies of media which you have paid for? i.e. I can rip mp3's of songs when I own the album? So if I own the VHS version of the "faces" release, isn't it legal for me to obtain that same material in a different format? I have paid for the rights for personal use of the movie. Honest question, not a challenge.
If you're going to take forever, then I'm having a hotdog!
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I'll admit that I'm dangerously close to the fence on the new 'official' releases, but I haven't caved yet. I will also admit that Empire has always been my favourite SW movie and ROTJ the least favourite. I used to think that I was disappointed because I had read the novelisation before seeing the film, but later came to the conclusion that it was the story arc (or lack thereof) of the film that led me to like it less.
Think about it; Luke is dressing all in black and has constructed his own lightsaber, which would lead us to believe that he is in a fragile state and could fall to the dark side at any time (Yoda said as much @ the end of Empire), but there's no payoff: he remains a goody-two-shoes to the bitter end. If there had been ANY indication of this in the rest of the film, the big lightsaber battle @ the end of ROTJ would have been more rewarding, since Luke would not only have saved his father, but himself as well. As it stands, we pretty much know that Luke will triumph, so his 'victory' over the dark side is hollow.
This is just one aspect. I must concur with Jay's comments as to the flatness of Han and Leia in this film, not to mention the rest of the characters. I think Kevin Smith said it best when he referred to ROTJ in Clerks as "just bunch of f$%kin' Muppets."

Princess Leia: I happen to like nice men.
Han Solo: I'm a nice man.

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Originally posted by: Starboy
As for bootlegging, it appears we have some legal counsel on the forum. Digitalman, am I right in stating that you are allowed to own backup copies of media which you have paid for? i.e. I can rip mp3's of songs when I own the album? So if I own the VHS version of the "faces" release, isn't it legal for me to obtain that same material in a different format? I have paid for the rights for personal use of the movie. Honest question, not a challenge.


The answer to the first question is yes, to a degree. Depending on which jurisdiction you live in, you can make 'fair use' copies of material you own. As to the question about obtaining the 'faces' release in a different format, you could make copies of these to DVD-r, if you really wanted to, but they'll look atrocious. If you want to obtain copies made from a laserdisc master though, that's a different kettle of fish.

Personally, I live in Canada where (for the time being) downloading and copying is legal, thanks to a generous copyright law and levies placed on all recordable media are redirected to the artists to compensate for this behaviour, so I could theoretically get my hands on the Ultimate Collection LDs, convert them to MPEG-2 and burn them to DVD-r with no fear of reprisals.

Princess Leia: I happen to like nice men.
Han Solo: I'm a nice man.

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Chaltab, the transfers are not as good as they were made out to be. Miscoloring, low contrast, low color, darkness...it's not that great.

ANH's sound sucks. Even on a TV, the dialogue sounds messed up.

I bought them on 9/21 (sorry, couldn't resist), but I don't like them, and haven't watched them more than once.
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Originally posted by: Starboy


As for bootlegging, it appears we have some legal counsel on the forum. Digitalman, am I right in stating that you are allowed to own backup copies of media which you have paid for? i.e. I can rip mp3's of songs when I own the album? So if I own the VHS version of the "faces" release, isn't it legal for me to obtain that same material in a different format? I have paid for the rights for personal use of the movie. Honest question, not a challenge.


Yes and no. First, I should be clear that I am not a lawyer, but I have done much, much, much legal research into First Amendment rights and into copyright law. None of what I'm about to tell you will get you to pass the bar, but it is based on fact and precedent. Please don't make me cite the references. I don't stake my freedom on any of this, but all of the research I have done points to these conclusions.

Yes, you ARE allowed to own backup copies of media which you paid for. Unfortunately, if a DVD is digitally encrypted, it is currently illegal for you to break the encryption scheme under a different law. This was the entertainment industry's way of getting around the "backup" issue. They made it illegal to engage in the technical process that allows you to back up a disc, even if you have the right to make a backup. Kinda like in Monty Python's Life of Brian ... Stan had the right to have babies, even if he couldn't actually have them. ;-) Personal note: I think it was beautiful that this incredible digital encryption scheme that was designed to protect DVDs was promptly hacked by a (then) 13-year-old kid. Even greater is that he released the code into the public domain, where it spread like wildfire, making it damn near impossible to police. If you cannot effectively police a policy, then it becomes unenforcable and new precedent is created for the owner of the copyright selectively enforcing his rights, and thus making his case much weaker. Did you know that the code for breaking the DVD encryption has actually been on t-shirts and worn into the courtroom by citizens when the issue was tried?

Anyway, what is NOT legal would be for you to own backups on a format that you haven't purchased. If you owned the original Faces VHS release, you could back that up to DVD for your own purposes. Or, if a friend gave you a copy of his backup of the same edition, and you still owned your official releases, that would be legal too. But if you did not buy the Laserdisc version, then technically you wouldn't have the right to own a backup of that format. Laserdiscs were mastered using a different process, and often contained different content such as widescreen format, commentaries and AC3 sound.

An analogy in the music world is this: You CAN take an album, cassette, or original CD of which you own a legal copy and re-encode it into MP3. If a friend owned this original CD too, and he ripped an MP3 version and gave it to you, that too wouldn't be a crime. However, if he gave you a rip of a "remastered" version of the CD and you only had the original edition, that would actually be a crime. (For example, the original Pink Floyd's "The Wall" vs the Remastered version). The reason is that the Sound Recording (as defined by the Library of Congress) would be an altered form. See, there are two kinds of copyrights, one for the conceptual work, called "Performing Arts" (PA for short) and one for the actual recorded form, called "Sound Recording" (SR for short). If the copyright holder remasters a CD or a movie, the physical form has changed, if not the conceptual work. (Greedo shooting first does not apply here ... that was a change in concept and would have required an update to the PA copyright too.) When I record a demo of my own material, I copyright the music and lyrics using the PA form AND the sound recording on a SR form. Then, when I have it remixed in the studio for proper release, I have to amend the SR form to include the updated work. If I change any lyrics or music, I have to update the PA form as well.

The ultimate question becomes "Who really cares?" If you owned the THX VHS set, and you obtained a backup of the Faces Laserdisc set on DVD, it is highly unlikely that you *would* be prosecuted, even if you *could* be prosecuted. Your intent was to preserve a movie which you bought legally on a format that won't deteriorate. If the master wasn't from the same strike, but the PA content didn't change, who really cares? Only uptight money grubbing lawyers and very anal-retentive coypright holders. Further, if you actually bought the official DVD (in addition to all your historic purchases) LFL and Fox would be much less likely to go after you for backing up of one of your previous editions, even if the source of the format were different. Reason being, you wouldn't be accepting this backup in lieu of their legitimate product. In short, if you aren't affecting their bottom line, they frankly don't give a rat's ass. But if you're selling backups, or accepting backups without any legal license in your posession, you're a target.

Mike Verta's site explains it so eloquently. His "restoration" is coming solely from compiling the various formats he owns, and he has no intent of selling the finished product. More power to him.

I'm more interested in the legal arguments around "backing up" movies that you have rented. There is a serious grey area there that hasn't been totally resolved. There is a concept called "time shifting" that legally allows you to record a program off of TV and watch it later. If you rent a movie but don't have time to watch it during the rental period, can you legally "time shift" by recording the movie and then watching it at your leisure? This is a serious debate going on in copyright law, and it will only take one judge with the balls to say "Yes" to that question to turn Hollywood's home video industry on its ear. Blockbuster's stock will plummet on that day, but will then skyrocket after sales go up -- when everybody starts renting movies and backing them up, rather than purchasing them outright.
I am fluent in over six million forms of procrastination.
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Originally posted by: Darth Justin
Chaltab, the transfers are not as good as they were made out to be. Miscoloring, low contrast, low color, darkness...it's not that great.

ANH's sound sucks. Even on a TV, the dialogue sounds messed up.

I bought them on 9/21 (sorry, couldn't resist), but I don't like them, and haven't watched them more than once.


I have them, and have watched ANH in its entirety. The contrast is a little too steep, but the detail is absolutely amazing. The transfers are good, despite the shoddy mistakes.

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