Spielberg was apparently Lucas’s first pick for ROTJ, but I wonder if he had actually been allowed to do it if Lucas still would have backseat directed like he did with Marquand.
Somehow I feel like either Lucas would have backed off (like on the Indys) or they might have even co-directed?
This speculation is pointless; in the end the film is crippled beyond hope. I was an idiot for liking this film, and anyone who says this is the best Star Wars film is just as idiotic as I am. Lucas proved his talent at not only making bad movies by this point, but making the most possibly incompetent whenever possible. Gary Kurtz kept him locked up as long as he could, but Lucas purged him when at the earliest possible moment. Lucas is a sadist; he knew ESB was a flawless masterpiece and did everything in his power to ensure that level of quality would never exist in the franchise again. He erased everything Kasdan wrote in the script for Jedi and tricked people by keeping his name credited. He divorced Marcia and erased her out of history mere weeks after Jedi’s premiere. He picked the most untalented and obedient yes-man to direct the film. He went the extra mile by adding more nonsense and choosing the laziest possible route that existed. You think the Phantom Menace was bad? We were warned for SIXTEEN YEARS that it was going to be the worst thing possible on film, AND THEN he bored an even deeper hole with AOTC so that the bad would outweigh the good permanently. Only now has the franchise climbed back into average at best quality, but we are never going to have a true masterpiece in the Star Wars saga again.
This speculation is pointless; in the end the film is crippled beyond hope.
Then stop talking about the goddamn movie and MOVE ON!
No one has answered me why most of the characters in Jedi are not the same as the characters in the prequels. Somebody help me bring balance back to the OT, and prove me wrong.
The only way to deal with you when you are like this is to not answer you.
Listen to the Half In The Bag (RedletterMedia) Commentary on Jedi. I didn’t know the whole redemption of Vader was out of character all along. Did anyone notice the first tim Luke and Vader met after their duel in ESB they’re just standing in a hallway, JUST LIKE EVERY SCENE IN THE PREQUELS??
the whole redemption of Vader was out of character all along.
This raised an eyebrow from me. I’ve never heard that complaint.
Is it related to how in ESB, Vader was bent on having Luke at his side to overthrow the Emperor, while in Jedi, Vader decides to act as the Emperor’s pet most of the time?
Or in other words, Vader went from going, “I NEED Luke by my side!” vs “Luke NEEDS to serve the Emperor!”
I’m probably off the mark here, but I never put much thought into how Vader might be out of character in Jedi.
The Rise of Failures
the whole redemption of Vader was out of character all along.
This raised an eyebrow from me. I’ve never heard that complaint.
Is it related to how in ESB, Vader was bent on having Luke at his side to overthrow the Emperor, while in Jedi, Vader decides to act as the Emperor’s pet most of the time?Or in other words, Vader went from going, “I NEED Luke by my side!” vs “Luke NEEDS to serve the Emperor!”
I’m probably off the mark here, but I never put much thought into how Vader might be out of character in Jedi.
To be honest, I stopped taking generalfrevious seriously sometime ago.
While Vader was a very likeable “badass” character in ANH and ESB, it was kinda one dimensional. ROTJ gave Vader a lot of depth in terms of character. It actually becomes interesting to wonder what is going in his head, unlike in ANH and ESB where it is just a matter of who is he going to kill next. While people usually only praise Luke’s and Emperor’s character development in ROTJ, I think Vader’s character gained substantially with ROTJ.
真実
imperialscum said:
While Vader was a very likeable “badass” character in ANH and ESB, it was kinda one dimensional. ROTJ gave Vader a lot of depth in terms of character. It actually becomes interesting to wonder what is going into his head, unlike in ANH and ESB where it is just a matter of who is he going to kill next. While people usually only praise Luke’s and Emperor’s character development in ROTJ, I think Vader’s character gained substantially with ROTJ.
I actually don’t mind Vader in Jedi for the reasons you mentioned. I always viewed it as a trouble guy that now knowing he has a son, that there’s finally something else in the galaxy worth a damn.
Although, what do you mean exactly the Emperor having character development…? I always thought he was one-dimensional as they get, which isn’t bad per se since we need contrast.
The Rise of Failures
Vader was fine in Jedi. His change started at the end of Empire Strikes Back. His final shot, on the bridge of the Executor, when the Falcon escapes. His son escapes, and he stares longingly after him into the depths of space. He starts to turn, but then looks back, one more time, as in disbelief. When he walks off the bridge, the officers, particularly Piett, are fearful for their lives. And yet, he just quietly walks off the bridge.
You don’t need a villain to take off his mask and cry and show you his tender heart in order to have depth. In fact, that is the lazy, amateurish way to do it.
No, Vader’s moment of vulnerability was just quietly walking off the bridge, back to the camera. Off to console himself with his own emotions and thoughts in some private chamber somewhere else on the ship.
Now fast forward to Jedi and it’s been a couple years later. The Emperor knows that Vader is a traitor. The only reason he keeps Vader alive is because he knows Luke will come for him. Otherwise, he would just assume kill Vader already, and he keeps him on a short leash and mocks him repeatedly when they speak together in person. For all we know, The Emperor had S/M sessions and tortured Vader half to death off camera during the years in between movies. Or maybe Vader has softened because of his feelings towards his son. Who knows the entire story, but Vader is broken and conflicted by the last film.
I don’t see anything wrong it.
Thank You. That’s the explanation I needed.
For all we know, The Emperor had S/M sessions and tortured Vader half to death off camera during the years in between movies.
Not the mental image I needed today. 😉
Where were you in '77?
Ha, somehow I knew that would get a response out of you, Silver.
Vader was fine in Jedi. His change started at the end of Empire Strikes Back. His final shot, on the bridge of the Executor, when the Falcon escapes. His son escapes, and he stares longingly after him into the depths of space. He starts to turn, but then looks back, one more time, as in disbelief. When he walks off the bridge, the officers, particularly Piett, are fearful for their lives. And yet, he just quietly walks off the bridge.
No, Vader’s moment of vulnerability was just quietly walking off the bridge, back to the camera. Off to console himself with his own emotions and thoughts in some private chamber somewhere else on the ship.
Well sorry to go a bit off-topic but I have relate this to “Alert my Star Destroyer to prepare for my arrival.” thread in Theatrical Cuts vs. Special Editions section. That is the exact reason why I hate “BRING MY SHUTTLE!” line. It does not fit at all.
Back on topic, I think Vader is one of the high points of ROTJ.
真実
We’ve already had that discussion in that thread awhile back, and everyone has said you are wrong. Vader was seething angry when he left Bespin. He didn’t have enough time to calm down, it was still the heat of the moment. If you have ever played a physical contact sport, you will know exactly what I am talking about. Luke had defied him, then hurt him with a lightsaber to the shoulder, and in a fit of rage Vader instantly chopped off the insolent kid’s hand. You can hear in James Earl Jones’s masterful voice performance, that Vader has to really hold himself back to not kill Luke. “Don’t make me destroy you” was of course a threat, but Vader’s temperament was so unstable with rage, he had to concentrate to hold himself back.
In contrast, by the time Vader reached the bridge of the Executor, he had time for “cooler heads to prevail”. He was no longer threatening Luke when they communicated with each other through the force; rather, he was pleading with him as any father would to his son. That difference in tone, the change in tactics from threatening to pleading, is what got a different response out of Luke. And the softer response out of Luke further softened Vader.
When the Falcon escaped into hyperspace, Vader’s emotional state was completely different than it was at the end of their duel.
It is a matter of an opinion. In my opinion, it simply does not fit his character. As I pointed out in that discussion, Vader never looses his temper before, even when he has obvious reasons to be pissed off. Instead he reacts calmly and simply executes people (many times he accompanies it with witty remarks). That’s all I am going to say.
Edit: Sorry, I couldn’t help myself, but maybe they should change the scene when Luke jumps. Instead of Vader calmly dropping his arm, they should add “NOOOOOO!” to signify his anger…
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I actually like both lines, I could take either of them. Not one of the changes that really bothered me in the SE’s.
I actually like both lines, I could take either of them. Not one of the changes that really bothered me in the SE’s.
Well I don’t particularly like “Alert my stardestroyer…” either. It is just less out of place.
I would prefer no line at all. A complete silence.
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imperialscum said:
it simply does not fit his character. As I pointed out in that discussion, Vader never looses his temper before
You must have forgot the very first scene in Star Wars.
Plus the time he killed Admiral Ozzel.
imperialscum said:
it simply does not fit his character. As I pointed out in that discussion, Vader never looses his temper beforeYou must have forgot the very first scene in Star Wars.
Plus the time he killed Admiral Ozzel.
When he killed Ozzel it wasn’t anger at all. It was a witty remark delivered with a calm voice.
As I already said in the previous discussion, “Tear the ship apart…” is the only instance in the span of entire trilogy where Vader raised his voice. So there this one instance versus so many in which he acts extremely calmly. Trying to prove the rule by a single exception is extremely unreasonable, especially in light of overwhelming opposite evidence.
So it is much more reasonable to try to explain the outlier (single exception). It could simply be that he raised the voice as he wanted to be heard by his soldiers across the ship.
真実
No one has answered me why most of the characters in Jedi are not the same as the characters in the prequels. Somebody help me bring balance back to the OT, and prove me wrong.
The only way to deal with you when you are like this is to not answer you.
I came here for solace, and I am ignored? I want to actually know what distinguishes ROTJ from the later prequel films in comprehensive detail and not be casually dismissed every time I post something here. It’s very disheartening to hear of a film (that I never had a problem with before) that could have been better. How does anyone take comfort in the franchise knowing that it peaked after a meager two films out of eight and counting? I genuinely want answers.
To paraphrase Mystery Science Theater 3000, repeat to yourself “it’s just a movie, I should really just relax.”
generalfrevious said:
I want to actually know what distinguishes ROTJ from the later prequel films in comprehensive detail and not be casually dismissed every time I post something here.
To begin with, the title is different. To conclude, everything else is different.
真実
Vader was definitely angry when he killed Ozzel. You can hear it in his voice when he said:
“You have failed me for the last time…”
I’m not sure where you’re getting this idea that someone so proficient in the dark side was calm and angerless.
generalfrevious said:
I want to actually know what distinguishes ROTJ from the later prequel films in comprehensive detail and not be casually dismissed every time I post something here.To begin with, the title is different. To conclude, everything else is different.
That’s too vague. I need a lot more detail, now that we have known for years that the Kurtz version would have been the greatest thing ever.
Vader was definitely angry when he killed Ozzel. You can hear it in his voice when he said:
“You have failed me for the last time…”
I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that one.
I’m not sure where you’re getting this idea that someone so proficient in the dark side was calm and angerless.
From the films.
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