ROTJ is the best Star Wars film... discuss! — Page 28

boredom3031 said:

This guy also liked Return better also. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGOVbXF7Iog

"Blasphemy" indeed LOL

generalfrevious said:

I don't remember any toyetic alien races in Empire either.

Nonsense. By that logic ANH with it's cantina is more "toyetic" than Empire.

There are more possibilities for toys in ROTJ because there is more badass stuff in it. More ships, more races, more fun. That doesn't mean they included all those things purely to make toys. The film was just better with those things in.

"Hey George let's not have a speederbike chase in this film. I know it'll be the most thrilling thing in the history of cinema but people 30 years later will be bitching that we only introduced the bikes so we could make toys out of them"

imperialscum said:

I think ROTJ is on par with SW and ESB.

Any kind of comparison between the three in terms of story is stupid since the individual storylines are complementary. I think the ROTJ storyline concludes the trilogy in a great way.

Well Han and Leia took the back seat in ROTJ (compared to SW and ESB) but that most certainly doesn’t mean the characters are badly written in general (as some people get the impression). It is just that other characters (and their development) are more prominent (Luke, Emperor, Jabba, Vader). ESB practically sucked Han and Leia character potential dry. To keep them going, Lucas could have postponed the love proclamation into ROTJ. But then he would degrade ESB.

Anyway I think it is great as it is. OT are my top 3 favourite films.

It would have been more than possible to write Han and Leia’s character arcs into ROTJ.

Han is just coming out of being frozen in carbonite, for months. How does having been in this state of living death affect him? Maybe make his blindness a little more permanent than a good night’s rest; have him blustering - over compensating with confidence - for any potential weakness, you can resolve this with Luke or even Leia ‘healing’ him with the force.

As for Leia, play up the conflict she feels at discovering Vader is her father, juxtaposed with Luke perhaps trying to open her to the force while she resists it/it overwhelms her. She and Luke also then have to decide whether or not to make the patrilineage known to their friends and the wider Rebellion. This can be a source of tension between Han and Leia who love each other passionately but after the trauma of their separation and reunion neither quite know where they stand, especially with the (obvious) secret shared between Luke and Leia from Han’s perspective, looking in.

Or it could go the opposite route, and have the secret of Luke and Leia’s parentage get out and be a blow to the morale of the Alliance, and be treated with distrust. Perhaps even announced by Vader/The Emperor himself. Our heroes overcome this then in Luke redeeming their father and Leia stepping up in command of the Rebellion in a crisis during the (final) battle, while Han comes to the conclusion that nothing is going to get in the way of him living the life he wants (with Leia) and does another Swag move kiss wrap things up for them, as well as being a bad ass in general (not as a general =P).

And those are just ideas I came up with on the spot, not even necessarily a good one. Point is that it could have been done, and ROTJ would have been better for it.

Benign Viewer said:

imperialscum said:

I think ROTJ is on par with SW and ESB.

Any kind of comparison between the three in terms of story is stupid since the individual storylines are complementary. I think the ROTJ storyline concludes the trilogy in a great way.

Well Han and Leia took the back seat in ROTJ (compared to SW and ESB) but that most certainly doesn’t mean the characters are badly written in general (as some people get the impression). It is just that other characters (and their development) are more prominent (Luke, Emperor, Jabba, Vader). ESB practically sucked Han and Leia character potential dry. To keep them going, Lucas could have postponed the love proclamation into ROTJ. But then he would degrade ESB.

Anyway I think it is great as it is. OT are my top 3 favourite films.

It would have been more than possible to write Han and Leia’s character arcs into ROTJ.

Han is just coming out of being frozen in carbonite, for months. How does having been in this state of living death affect him? Maybe make his blindness a little more permanent than a good night’s rest; have him blustering - over compensating with confidence - for any potential weakness, you can resolve this with Luke or even Leia ‘healing’ him with the force.

As for Leia, play up the conflict she feels at discovering Vader is her father, juxtaposed with Luke perhaps trying to open her to the force while she resists it/it overwhelms her. She and Luke also then have to decide whether or not to make the patrilineage known to their friends and the wider Rebellion. This can be a source of tension between Han and Leia who love each other passionately but after the trauma of their separation and reunion neither quite know where they stand, especially with the (obvious) secret shared between Luke and Leia from Han’s perspective, looking in.

Or it could go the opposite route, and have the secret of Luke and Leia’s parentage get out and be a blow to the morale of the Alliance, and be treated with distrust. Perhaps even announced by Vader/The Emperor himself. Our heroes overcome this then in Luke redeeming their father and Leia stepping up in command of the Rebellion in a crisis during the (final) battle, while Han comes to the conclusion that nothing is going to get in the way of him living the life he wants (with Leia) and does another Swag move kiss wrap things up for them, as well as being a bad ass in general (not as a general =P).

And those are just ideas I came up with on the spot, not even necessarily a good one. Point is that it could have been done, and ROTJ would have been better for it.

First of all, your ideas would make the film a boring soap opera instead of a fun adventure sci-fi/fantasy. So your ideas are most certainly are not good ones (as you yourself suggested it might be the case).

Secondly, you should start being realistic. The film has a limited screen time. Sure you can develop some characters more but at expense of developing other characters less. If they would have developed Han’s and Leia’s characters more then the screen time and story focus should have been allocated from Luke/Emperor/Vader to them. Since ESB practically had the main focus on Han and Leia, I just wouldn’t want to see ROTJ doing the same.

Darth Id said:

imperialscum said:

…your ideas would make the film a boring soap opera instead of a fun adventure sci-fi/fantasy.

I knew there was something I liked about them!

–Georgie-Poo

LOL you guys.

And now to retort, having actually thought about it some more, and not just fly(writ)ing by the seat of my pants:

None of the ideas I postulated above, poor or not, would require much screen time.

Granted my random (3am) thoughts on what could’ve been done with Han were rubbish. No denying that. I’ll just dismiss them out hand as well.

For Leia though, making a couple of tweaks to my initial thoughts; you could very easily have near the film’s start had a scene with her arguing with the Alliance command about the necessity/feasibility of rescuing Han, (or just her storming out afterwards even) and perhaps have her demoted for insisting on going to rescue him. Rescue ensues, et cetera et cetera, it now makes more sense for her to be on the Endor shuttle crew.
Add another scene if you like of her taking charge during the battle from one of the Imperial communications relay or something after the loss of some of the rebel leaders due to the Death Star II, or their communications are knocked out, if you want a further pay off for the earlier scene.
These two additions would not take more than a couple of minutes of screen time and BAM you have an arc for Leia without even altering the plot (because sorry, I did not like the recycled use of a Death Star much, cool as the space battle was).

Now all this speculation is pointless, other than to point out that it would have been very much possible to give the other major characters of the OT arcs in ROTJ, even within the existing plot structure of the film. Thus I don’t think it lived up to its potential despite having my personal favourite sequence in the entire saga (between Luke, Vader, and the Emperor).
Ergo, for me, ROTJ is the third best Star Wars film.

Benign Viewer said:

For Leia though, making a couple of tweaks to my initial thoughts; you could very easily have near the film’s start had a scene with her arguing with the Alliance command about the necessity/feasibility of rescuing Han, (or just her storming out afterwards even) and perhaps have her demoted for insisting on going to rescue him. Rescue ensues, et cetera et cetera, it now makes more sense for her to be on the Endor shuttle crew.
Add another scene if you like of her taking charge during the battle from one of the Imperial communications relay or something after the loss of some of the rebel leaders due to the Death Star II, or their communications are knocked out, if you want a further pay off for the earlier scene.
These two additions would not take more than a couple of minutes of screen time and BAM you have an arc for Leia without even altering the plot (because sorry, I did not like the recycled use of a Death Star much, cool as the space battle was).

Sorry, bad ideas again. First of all, the rescue as it is was already decided/initiated in ESB. The last scene is basically dedicated to that (they send Lando ahead etc.). Secondly, her making such as stupid argument would actually ruin her character. She always seemed to give priorities to the rebel cause at expense of any personal stuff. In the end there is no necessity/feasibility in rescuing Han from the rebellion perspective. It is a waste of resources.

Now all this speculation is pointless, other than to point out that it would have been very much possible to give the other major characters of the OT arcs in ROTJ, even within the existing plot structure of the film.

Both Han and Liea still have major character arcs in ROTJ. They just aren’t as dumb as you would like them to be. 😃

Bingowings said:

Most of this is down to the acting of the four people playing Vader/Anakin, Mark and Ian.

(That would be five people actually; Vader had three actors between Shaw, Prowse and Earl Jones).

imperialscum said:

Both Han and Liea still have major character arcs in ROTJ. They just aren’t as dumb as you would like them to be. 😃

LOL I’ve read enough of your comments over this thread not to take your attitude to heart (and to know that we’ll probably never agree) but seriously what character arcs? 😛

Han gets rescued. Is made a full time Alliance general in a scene that we don’t see. Goes from event to event as the plot dictates. The unique aspects of his character neither influence nor are influenced by any of these events.

Leia rescues Han. Is made a combat soldier in a scene we never see; is (apparently) not an acting Allinace leader, representative or member of High Command. Proceeds to go from event to event as the plot dictates. Has a super villain revealed as her father, and a long lost brother revealed, neither of which influence her character nor influence her or events in any way subsequently.

Sorry, but these are not arcs. I tend to by and large agree with the vein of Bingo and Frink’s criticisms. I’m glad you you enjoy the film so, though, and can take so much out of it.

My benign best to you.

Benign Viewer said:
Han gets rescued. Is made a full time Alliance general in a scene that we don’t see. Goes from event to event as the plot dictates. The unique aspects of his character neither influence nor are influenced by any of these events.

You could say the same stuff about his character in ANH and ESB. The arc is only prominent if you look at it from entire trilogy perspective. In ANH he pretends to be a badass. In ESB he softens up (stops pretending as people get to known him well). In ROTJ he is himself.

Benign Viewer said:
Has a super villain revealed as her father, and a long lost brother revealed, neither of which influence her character nor influence her or events in any way subsequently.

What would you like? A soap opera? Destruction of her home planet didn’t influence her character in any way. Why should this influence her character?

I think AOTC might be perfect for you. You have a sensitive main character. Every little thing influences his character. You got lots of soap opera and whining. On top of that there is lots of “representative or member of High Command” stuff as well.

imperialscum said:

Benign Viewer said:
Han gets rescued. Is made a full time Alliance general in a scene that we don’t see. Goes from event to event as the plot dictates. The unique aspects of his character neither influence nor are influenced by any of these events.

You could say the same stuff about his character in ANH and ESB. The arc is only prominent if you look at it from entire trilogy perspective. In ANH he pretends to be a badass. In ESB he softens up (stops pretending as people get to known him well). In ROTJ he is himself.

Benign Viewer said:
Has a super villain revealed as her father, and a long lost brother revealed, neither of which influence her character nor influence her or events in any way subsequently.

What would you like? A soap opera? Destruction of her home planet didn’t influence her character in any way. Why should this influence her character?

I think AOTC might be perfect for you. You have a sensitive main character. Every little thing influences his character. You got lots of soap opera and whining. On top of that there is lots of “representative or member of High Command” stuff as well.

In ROTJ, Han is bland. It’s actually prequel-esque story telling (tell, don’t show characterization) where we never actually see Han make the decision to become a full-time Rebel, and why.
Note That to be shown this we don’t have to have dialogue of him whining about his feelings. Which should be obvious but it seems I have to keep addressing charges of wanting everything to be like the fucking prequels with you.

Let’s get that all out of the way now. You’re straw-manning me. That’s just about the lowest form of argument. As I said, I don’t expect you to agree with me, but just because I had a different vision of the film to you does not mean I wanted AOTC (a bad film like no other) for all of the Star Wars saga.

Debate the merit of my argument, please, instead of sophomorically putting words in my mouth. Wanting there to be some actual drama in the film (for characters other than Luke) instead of one great big pat-on-the-back-fest does not mean that ‘Soap Opera’ is the only alternative. That’s a false dichotomy.

I’m commenting on this thread because I want to discuss the flaws and merits of Return of the Jedi, such as each individual thinks they exist. I don’t care about insults and faux pas humour personally, but I can see that it’s a waste of my time.

Benign Viewer said:

In ROTJ, Han is bland.

No he is not.

Benign Viewer said:
It’s actually prequel-esque story telling (tell, don’t show characterization) where we never actually see Han make the decision to become a full-time Rebel, and why.

Han was full-time rebel in ESB. Why should ROTJ be responsible for showing something that happened between ANH and ESB.