Bingowings said:
I'm talking the chap with the face fuzz who blows up mid-sneeze after going in the tube with the Falcon.
Bingo you always make me laugh.
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A better picture of the mid-sneeze.
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Bingowings said:
No it proves they have a vital role in ESB that is missing in ROTJ.
Framing the hero's quest, giving it context.
As I said myself, they were indeed vital to Luke's subplot in ESB. But they didn't have some proper role of their own. They were just plot dummies for Luke's subplot.
In ROTJ they weren't plot dummies for Luke's character. They themselves actually had some vital role/mission in the storyline.
真実
Once again not really.
Artoo maybe for opening the doors (though arguably any droid with the right attachments would do), Han and Chewie for their expertise (though they both prove to pretty useless what with the snapped twig and dead animal gags) but Leia??
The group spent some time putting on camouflage outfits and they brought along Threepio???
The whole bunch have spent act one proving how unsuited they are for this sort of mission by only getting out of the Jabba thing by blind luck (sorry the will of the Force). But Threepio???
As I posted earlier it turned out to be a lucky move but they had no way of knowing that.
If Luke had a line saying,"I have foreseen it. we will take down the shield and you will be there and you and you" we could put down these lapses in logic and strokes of luck as the will of the Force. Luke is the new Jedi and the Rebels are in awe of him and his visions of Arrakis as a paradise planet.
The Gospel narrative has this sort of workaround with Jesus knowing he is going to be killed but going to Jerusalem anyway (because it's necessary and he can see the future) even to the point of knowing where there is a donkey to be had at short notice.
As it stands ROTJ arranges many of the characters in dioramas without having any human reason for them being there.
It's like Lucas is a kid playing with action figures rather than the characters being people going through a planned sequence of events with unexpected obstacles and distractions.
It's a classic case of 'a wizard did it'.
Ironically in a story with wizards, the wizard isn't a Jedi or Sith but Lucas playing with toys.
Bingowings said:
As it stands ROTJ arranges many of the characters in dioramas without having any human reason for them being there.
It's like Lucas is a kid playing with action figures rather than people going through a planned sequence of events with unexpected obstacles and distractions.
And in the original 1977 film where Luke (Who has never flown an X-Wing or starfighter before) is leading the trench run with two much more experienced pilots as his wing men is totally fine.
Luke leads the trench run because he is the hero that we are all rooting for. It makes no sense logically but it feels so right.
The same can be said of all the characters being made instant generals in ESB (Plus Lando in ROTJ). It's daft but oh so cool. Of course in the real world Mon Mothma wouldn't get Lando to lead the final battle against the Empire. But it's totally awesome, infact if I could be one character in the whole of the OT it would be Lando in that epic battle. With films this much fun logic can go hang.
Would you send a panicy golden robot on a covert mission on Endor... nope. But then we would be deprived of the delight of Threepio shouting "Come baaaaack!" and "R2 stay with me".
Would our heroes have realistically escaped detection for most of the time they are on the first Death Star? Absolutely not, it's flat out insane, do I care? Nooooo.
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Ryan McAvoy said:
And in the original 1977 film where Luke (Who has never flown an X-Wing or starfighter before) is leading the trench run with two much more experienced pilots as his wing men is totally fine.
Luke leads the trench run because he is the hero that we are all rooting for. It makes no sense logically but it feels so right.
Exactly. Luke wouldn't even fly a fighter if it was according to logic. They just wouldn't let a farm boy they just met into an X-wing. I am sure they had more pilots than ships. So if there was an opening to fly one of the X-wings, some other trained rebel pilot would do it.
And stuff like this is all over the ANH, ESB and ROTJ, yet some people only see it in ROTJ.
真実
Back at Yavin they have more fighters than experienced pilots and Luke is experienced with similar craft and they have nothing to lose.
It makes human sense.
Similar things happened in both world wars.
The Death Star is the size of a small moon and has exterior as well as interior spaces.
Ben wanders around because he uses the Force to distract people but the others stay in one room, briefly wander around in disguise and then run after being detected.
It makes sense.
Nobody is made an instant general in ESB.
It doesn't make sense in ROTJ and saying, "but it's fun" doesn't cut it with this viewer. The first two films proved films can be fun and also make sense.
Bingowings said:
Once again not really.
Artoo maybe for opening the doors (though arguably any droid with the right attachments would do), Han and Chewie for their expertise (though they both prove to pretty useless what with the snapped twig and dead animal gags) but Leia??
The group spent some time putting on camouflage outfits and they brought along Threepio???
Yes that is all true. But they still at least had some role... unlike in ESB where their role was nothing for almost entire film and in the end their role turned into being a bait for Luke.
真実
Bingowings said:
Back at Yavin they have more fighters than experienced pilots and Luke is experienced with similar craft and they have nothing to lose.
It makes human sense.
Don't be ridiculous please. Every military airbase has reserve pilots. And to expect poorly equipped rebels to have more equipment than manpower is flat stupid.
It makes no sense.
Bingowings said:
Similar things happened in both world wars.
In WW2 British took some already experienced pilots from other European air forces (they had a clear reference on their skill/capabilities). And even they went trough some training before they flown Spitfires. Luke came out of nowhere, with no background, no reliable reference what so ever. And to expect he could see anything close to X-wing system on a backwater planet of Tatooine is just... well I will just stop lol.
真実
Biggs vouched for Luke's piloting skills. He's the best bush pilot in the outer rim territories you know! The scene was only partially restored to the SE, but it was addressed.
Rescuing the princess puts Luke in the good graces of the Rebellion as well.
I have no problem believing they might have been short a pilot or two. People do get sick at the worst possible times. Luke even said to Han they could use a good pilot like him.
IIRC, the radio adaptation added a scene where Luke trains in a simulator before the Death Star arrives?
Where were you in '77?
SilverWook said:
Biggs vouched for Luke's piloting skills. He's the best bush pilot in the outer rim territories you know! The scene was only partially restored to the SE, but it was addressed.
Rescuing the princess puts Luke in the good graces of the Rebellion as well.
I have no problem believing they might have been short a pilot or two. People do get sick at the worst possible times. Luke even said to Han they could use a good pilot like him.
IIRC, the radio adaptation added a scene where Luke trains in a simulator before the Death Star arrives?
Well this is still unrealistic and illogical. Don't get me wrong. I can easily go with that explanation since this is a fantasy film. I was just pointing out Bingo's double standards when it comes to ROTJ. He seems to be able to dismiss any unrealistic and illogical thing that occurs in ANH/ESB with laughably dumb explanations, but he seems to not able to go along with half as dumb explanations for stuff in ROTJ.
真実
The Rebels are an insurgent force (not an established planetary military force).
Even so it would be like Holland Vs the galaxy.
The planet they are on is about to be vapourised.
I think they would be sticking every man they could in those things especially people skilled at piloting similar craft that vouched for by a current squadron member and can get a character reference from one of the leaders of the whole operation.
Luke and Biggs both assert that Luke is skilled enough to pilot the ship well.
And if you are going to call me stupid do it in the off topic section.
Bingowings said:
The Rebels are an insurgent force (not an established planetary military force).
Even so it would be like Holland Vs the galaxy.
The planet they are on is about to be vapourised.
I think they would be sticking every man they could in those things especially people skilled at piloting similar craft that vouched for by a current squadron member and can get a character reference from one of the leaders of the whole operation.
Luke and Biggs both assert that Luke is skilled enough to pilot the ship well.
And if you are going to call me stupid do it in the off topic section.
Since you try so hard to establish how poor this rebels are, what would make you believe they have more expensive star fighters than manpower. Logically it would be the opposite of course.
Yea sure Biggs vouched for Luke. Two guys from a poor 3rd world country were driving tractors at their farm when they were young. One of them went to a developed country to become a fighter pilot. Some time later they meet and this guy vouches for his friend "you know we drove tractors when we were young". The squadron commander is indeed so impressed that he immediately puts the guy into the fighter plane cabin.
And btw I did not call you stupid. I said that a certain expectation is stupid. I suggest you read more carefully.
真実
Red Leader having met Luke's famous pilot father is also one heck of a character reference. ;)
It's too bad they cut the female pilots they shot for Jedi. That this older gal is in the the thick of the battle speaks volumes.
Where were you in '77?
imperialscum said:
Bingowings said:
The Rebels are an insurgent force (not an established planetary military force).
Even so it would be like Holland Vs the galaxy.
The planet they are on is about to be vapourised.
I think they would be sticking every man they could in those things especially people skilled at piloting similar craft that vouched for by a current squadron member and can get a character reference from one of the leaders of the whole operation.
Luke and Biggs both assert that Luke is skilled enough to pilot the ship well.
And if you are going to call me stupid do it in the off topic section.
Since you try so hard to establish how poor this rebels are, what would make you believe they have more expensive star fighters than manpower. Logically it would be the opposite of course.
Yea sure Biggs vouched for Luke. Two guys from a poor 3rd world country were driving tractors at their farm when they were young. One of them went to a developed country to become a fighter pilot. Some time later they meet and this guy vouches for his friend "you know we drove tractors when we were young". The squadron commander is indeed so impressed that he immediately puts the guy into the fighter plane cabin.
And btw I did not call you stupid.
Biggs and Luke both flew T-16 Skyhoppers on Tatooine. Luke fools around with a small model of it in the film, and you can see the full size one in the back of the garage where he cleans up the droids.
Where were you in '77?
I don't have to try.
Look at the ships.
They are old ships hotrodded beyond their design specifications.
The Y-Wings are Old Republic era ships stripped of their stream lining for east of access and to recycle the unneeded metal.
The equipment is covered in dents and scratches.
Almost everything in the Yavin base are moveable modules (they found the buildings and moved the equipment in).
We see the same equipment again on Hoth and on the fleet ships.
The Rebels are a scattered make do and mend organisation.
The only way they get replacement materials is when they are donated by new arrivals (which are also old ships).
This is why the story of them fighting the mechanised established galactic government is so compelling.
It's the story of every resistance organisation on Earth but with spaceships.
Imperialscum said :
Don't be ridiculous please. Every military airbase has reserve pilots. And to expect poorly equipped rebels to have more equipment than manpower is flat stupid.
Reads like you calling me ridiculous and my expectations stupid. you can do that sort of thing and more on the off topic section.
SilverWook said:
imperialscum said:
Bingowings said:
The Rebels are an insurgent force (not an established planetary military force).
Even so it would be like Holland Vs the galaxy.
The planet they are on is about to be vapourised.
I think they would be sticking every man they could in those things especially people skilled at piloting similar craft that vouched for by a current squadron member and can get a character reference from one of the leaders of the whole operation.
Luke and Biggs both assert that Luke is skilled enough to pilot the ship well.
And if you are going to call me stupid do it in the off topic section.
Since you try so hard to establish how poor this rebels are, what would make you believe they have more expensive star fighters than manpower. Logically it would be the opposite of course.
Yea sure Biggs vouched for Luke. Two guys from a poor 3rd world country were driving tractors at their farm when they were young. One of them went to a developed country to become a fighter pilot. Some time later they meet and this guy vouches for his friend "you know we drove tractors when we were young". The squadron commander is indeed so impressed that he immediately puts the guy into the fighter plane cabin.
And btw I did not call you stupid.
Biggs and Luke both flew T-16 Skyhoppers on Tatooine. Luke fools around with a small model of it in the film, and you can see the full size one in the back of the garage where he cleans up the droids.
An equipment that can be owned by a poor backwater farmers is equivalent to tractor in modern world. So my comparison is still completely valid.
真実
It's more like comparing a crop duster to a spitfire or a tractor with a tank.
When the planet you are on is about to be vapourised does it matter?
Bingowings said:
When the planet you are on is about to be vapourised does it matter?
Well it doesn't. I just don't think Luke would get to fly the sophisticated X-wing, if you apply logic and realism to the matter. Well maybe if you turn a blind eye and put several "if"s into the equation. But you seem to be so reluctant to do that when it comes to ROTJ.
真実
imperialscum said:
Bingowings said:
When the planet you are on is about to be vapourised does it matter?
Well it doesn't. I just don't think Luke would get to fly the sophisticated X-wing, if you apply logic and realism to the matter. Well maybe if you turn a blind eye and put several "if"s into the equation. But you seem to be so reluctant to do that when it comes to ROTJ.
But I'm not.
I can see it making sense that Red Leader would let Luke fly when the planet they are defending is about to be blown up but not making sense to send a gold, loud, fussy butlerdroid into a bunker siege situation (where stealth would be a plus) on a green planet.
I would love ROTJ to hold up to the same standard as ESB and ANH but it doesn't.
I think the Artoo unit in the backseat can automate a lot of things for a neophyte pilot though. It was established in ESB that R2 could take over and let Luke take a rest if he wanted.
Where were you in '77?
Bingowings said:
I can see it making sense that Red Leader would let Luke fly when the planet they are defending is about to be blown up but not making sense to send a gold, loud, fussy butlerdroid into a bunker siege situation on a green planet.
C3PO being part of the mission comes down to one simple thing. There is only one simple "if" involved and that is if Solo decided so (he was strike team leader). Judging from some of his past decisions (foolish charge on Strormtroopers, not paying Jabba for 3 years, etc.), it is not too hard to believe he approved this one too.
On the other hand, Luke flying X-wing has tons of complicated "if"s: if rebels had a spare X-wing, if rebels really didn't have spare pilots to fly it (highly unlikely), if rebel command is willing to take some unknown farm boy, if Luke's "crop duster" management skill is anywhere near sufficient to handle an "F-16", and so on.
真実
Someone familiar with a crop duster might find it difficult to fly an F-16 but a Spitfire not so much.
However if someone had flown a commercial jet, flying an F-16 is less of a leap.
The T-16 and the X-wing are comparable technologically as is a crop duster and a Spitfire.
You are cropduster/F-16 comparison is an equation between different technologies (like a commercial Jet and a Space Shuttle).
Nice to see you agree that giving Solo command of the ground assault was a bit silly though.
A bit like a lot of the film.
Bingowings said:
The T-16 and the X-wing are comparable technologically as is a crop duster and a Spitfire.
Your opinion...
Bingowings said:
Nice to see you agree that giving Solo command of the ground assault was a bit silly though.
Less silly than giving Luke an X-wing.
真実