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RAW DV VHS transfers of ISD Executor and maybe more. — Page 2

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Williarob said:

The biggest problem I found with DV capture is that is uses 4:1:1 chroma subsampling which really reduces the picture quality.

In 4:1:1 chroma subsampling, the horizontal color resolution is quartered to reduce the bandwidth by half. In 4:2:2 chroma subsampling the two chroma components are sampled at half the sample rate of luma: the horizontal chroma resolution is halved. This reduces the bandwidth of an uncompressed video signal by one-third with little to no visual difference.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chroma_subsampling

You are completely right about 4:1:1, but you might have missed one important detail. The ISD is PAL and I’m capturing in PAL and in PAL the chroma subsampling is 4:2:0, not 4:1:1, which looks light years better.

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SF01 said:

Williarob said:

The biggest problem I found with DV capture is that is uses 4:1:1 chroma subsampling which really reduces the picture quality.

In 4:1:1 chroma subsampling, the horizontal color resolution is quartered to reduce the bandwidth by half. In 4:2:2 chroma subsampling the two chroma components are sampled at half the sample rate of luma: the horizontal chroma resolution is halved. This reduces the bandwidth of an uncompressed video signal by one-third with little to no visual difference.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chroma_subsampling

You are completely right about 4:1:1, but you might have missed one important detail. The ISD is PAL and I’m capturing in PAL and in PAL the chroma subsampling is 4:2:0, not 4:1:1, which looks light years better.

Oh, I didn’t know that it was 4:2:0 in PAL. That should look much better 😃 Carry on!

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Williarob said:

SF01 said:

Williarob said:

The biggest problem I found with DV capture is that is uses 4:1:1 chroma subsampling which really reduces the picture quality.

In 4:1:1 chroma subsampling, the horizontal color resolution is quartered to reduce the bandwidth by half. In 4:2:2 chroma subsampling the two chroma components are sampled at half the sample rate of luma: the horizontal chroma resolution is halved. This reduces the bandwidth of an uncompressed video signal by one-third with little to no visual difference.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chroma_subsampling

You are completely right about 4:1:1, but you might have missed one important detail. The ISD is PAL and I’m capturing in PAL and in PAL the chroma subsampling is 4:2:0, not 4:1:1, which looks light years better.

Oh, I didn’t know that it was 4:2:0 in PAL. That should look much better 😃 Carry on!

The whole existance of NTSC was the biggest mistake in history of television. Always problems…

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Until 120hz TVs came out and we got the appropriate ~24fps + accurately pitched audio, compared to PAL that was effectively 2000khz less audio resolution per second when played back at appropriate speed. 😉

Preferred Saga:
PT: Hal9000
4/5: Adywan
6: NSP
7/8: Hal9000

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OK, the tape plays fine on the setup: VCR -> DV converter -> PC on live feed theough VLC.

But I noticed both on TV and VLC the picture jums up and down by few scanlines on all tapes.

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SF01 said:

Williarob said:

SF01 said:

Williarob said:

The biggest problem I found with DV capture is that is uses 4:1:1 chroma subsampling which really reduces the picture quality.

In 4:1:1 chroma subsampling, the horizontal color resolution is quartered to reduce the bandwidth by half. In 4:2:2 chroma subsampling the two chroma components are sampled at half the sample rate of luma: the horizontal chroma resolution is halved. This reduces the bandwidth of an uncompressed video signal by one-third with little to no visual difference.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chroma_subsampling

You are completely right about 4:1:1, but you might have missed one important detail. The ISD is PAL and I’m capturing in PAL and in PAL the chroma subsampling is 4:2:0, not 4:1:1, which looks light years better.

Oh, I didn’t know that it was 4:2:0 in PAL. That should look much better 😃 Carry on!

The whole existance of NTSC was the biggest mistake in history of television. Always problems…

I’d rather deal with whatever problems NTSC has than ever listen to the pitchy sped-up mess of PAL.

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digitalfreaknyc said:

I’d rather deal with whatever problems NTSC has than ever listen to the pitchy sped-up mess of PAL.

Not all PAL material is affected by the speed up issue and with those that are, it can be easily worked around. I live in a formerly PAL broadcasting nation, my parents are from an NTSC region - I’d rather deal with neither of the problems with both standards.

“Logic is the battlefield of adulthood.”

  • Howard Berk
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JayArgonaut said:

digitalfreaknyc said:

I’d rather deal with whatever problems NTSC has than ever listen to the pitchy sped-up mess of PAL.

Not all PAL material is affected by the speed up issue and with those that are, it can be easily worked around. I live in a formerly PAL broadcasting nation, my parents are from an NTSC region - I’d rather deal with neither of the problems with both standards.

Every DVD I bought back in the day did. I would say that the ones that compensated were far in the minority. Of course, now it’s extremely easy to work around. Then? Not so much.

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digitalfreaknyc said:

JayArgonaut said:

digitalfreaknyc said:

I’d rather deal with whatever problems NTSC has than ever listen to the pitchy sped-up mess of PAL.

Not all PAL material is affected by the speed up issue and with those that are, it can be easily worked around. I live in a formerly PAL broadcasting nation, my parents are from an NTSC region - I’d rather deal with neither of the problems with both standards.

Every DVD I bought back in the day did. I would say that the ones that compensated were far in the minority. Of course, now it’s extremely easy to work around. Then? Not so much.

Blame studios. PAL pulldown is easy.
With Pal you ger better resolution image and no messed up fields.

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 (Edited)

digitalfreaknyc said:

Every DVD I bought back in the day did. I would say that the ones that compensated were far in the minority. Of course, now it’s extremely easy to work around. Then? Not so much.

There is a wealth of material, produced in the UK alone, that is not affected by this issue, hence me pointing out that not all PAL content suffers from this drawback.

Here’s a good post on the subject.

https://forum.dvdtalk.com/international-dvd-talk/550776-does-pal-speedup-bother-anyone-around-here-2.html#post9530425

Again, I would rather not deal with the problems of either TV standard. 😃

Perhaps further discussion of PAL vs NTSC would be better suited to a separate thread. None of this really helps SF01 with their project. Though of course, they can decide this. 😉

“Logic is the battlefield of adulthood.”

  • Howard Berk
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 (Edited)

One interesting aspect of old NTSC sources is the wider colorspace. This was only changed in the 1990s:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTSC#Colorimetry

For example the first seasons of Star Trek DS 9 use the old colorspace. This was not corrected for DVD release, even on the PAL versions. That why the colors look so unsaturated and off. We are viewing them on sRGB / EBU displays with a smaller color space!
https://color.viewsonic.com/asset-files/images/what-is-color-gamut-3.jpg

Interestingly, this NTSC colorspace is very close to the current DCI-P3, used for 4K HDR TV.

Just something to take into account when preserving NTSC masters. If the colors are really off, it needs colorspace conversion. There are some Media Player Shaders that can handle it for playback I think.

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JayArgonaut said:

digitalfreaknyc said:

Every DVD I bought back in the day did. I would say that the ones that compensated were far in the minority. Of course, now it’s extremely easy to work around. Then? Not so much.

There is a wealth of material, produced in the UK alone, that is not affected by this issue, hence me pointing out that not all PAL content suffers from this drawback.

Here’s a good post on the subject.

https://forum.dvdtalk.com/international-dvd-talk/550776-does-pal-speedup-bother-anyone-around-here-2.html#post9530425

Again, I would rather not deal with the problems of either TV standard. 😃

Perhaps further discussion of PAL vs NTSC would be better suited to a separate thread. None of this really helps SF01 with their project. Though of course, they can decide this. 😉

Well, of course things in the UK aren’t affected by it because they’re natively at that speed. So they’re out of the equation.

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4throck said:

One interesting aspect of old NTSC sources is the wider colorspace. This was only changed in the 1990s:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTSC#Colorimetry

For example the first seasons of Star Trek DS 9 use the old colorspace. This was not corrected for DVD release, even on the PAL versions. That why the colors look so unsaturated and off. We are viewing them on sRGB / EBU displays with a smaller color space!
https://color.viewsonic.com/asset-files/images/what-is-color-gamut-3.jpg

Very interesting and that explains observations I’ve made whilst watching the current DS9 airings on the Horror Channel. 😃

digitalfreaknyc said:

Well, of course things in the UK aren’t affected by it because they’re natively at that speed. So they’re out of the equation.

Much but not all.

“Logic is the battlefield of adulthood.”

  • Howard Berk
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 (Edited)

JayArgonaut said:
Very interesting and that explains observations I’ve made whilst watching the current DS9 airings on the Horror Channel. 😃

Sorry for the OT but I think it’s relevant regarding preservation.
It’s easy to spot the effect on saturated colors. Here’s something from Season 1 (1993):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jguxZgKyLo4

Pause at 0:09 and look at that red/orange background (on the left), at 2:36 the green lights and at 3:12 the wormhole (a bit violet). All are washed out, light and a bit off. So if you see this, these are not Hue or saturation errors. It’s just a different colorspace being used.

I mentioned shaders, so here’s a link about that: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/26-home-theater-computers/912720-color-correction-htpc-simpler-solution-now-really-works.html

Have fun 😃

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Very interesting.

However I have an update on my project.
DV is something I might do, but I will be getting Blackmagic Hyperdeck and Teranex Mini to record the new SW films to VHS, so I guess I can go the otherway aroud and trasfer ISD that way to Hyperdeck to 4:2:2 and upscaled. Which is a step up from DV I think.

I’ll update when I get the equipment.

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SF01 said:

Very interesting.

However I have an update on my project.
DV is something I might do, but I will be getting Blackmagic Hyperdeck and Teranex Mini to record the new SW films to VHS, so I guess I can go the otherway aroud and trasfer ISD that way to Hyperdeck to 4:2:2 and upscaled. Which is a step up from DV I think.

I’ll update when I get the equipment.

Any updates on this project? I’d be curious to see the way the Executor set laid out the supplemental material versus the Definitive laserdiscs.

Also, can anyone with this set offer a little more insight into the differences between the trailers on this set versus the laserdiscs? I know this copied over pretty much everything from the laserdiscs but in reading the list of trailers it sure seems like there were more on this than the laserdiscs. From the laserdisc rips I’ve seen they feature three trailers each like the DVDs, but the Executor set lists a US TV spot for New Hope, the second teaser (in both flat and scope) and the 1982 re-release for Empire and Jedi lists a “test” teaser in scope (is this just the “Revenge” teaser in letterbox or something different? I’d also be curious which Star Wars TV spot was included as there were obviously many to choose from.

Thanks for any updates or clarification!

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400metres said:

SF01 said:

Very interesting.

However I have an update on my project.
DV is something I might do, but I will be getting Blackmagic Hyperdeck and Teranex Mini to record the new SW films to VHS, so I guess I can go the otherway aroud and trasfer ISD that way to Hyperdeck to 4:2:2 and upscaled. Which is a step up from DV I think.

I’ll update when I get the equipment.

Any updates on this project? I’d be curious to see the way the Executor set laid out the supplemental material versus the Definitive laserdiscs.

Also, can anyone with this set offer a little more insight into the differences between the trailers on this set versus the laserdiscs? I know this copied over pretty much everything from the laserdiscs but in reading the list of trailers it sure seems like there were more on this than the laserdiscs. From the laserdisc rips I’ve seen they feature three trailers each like the DVDs, but the Executor set lists a US TV spot for New Hope, the second teaser (in both flat and scope) and the 1982 re-release for Empire and Jedi lists a “test” teaser in scope (is this just the “Revenge” teaser in letterbox or something different? I’d also be curious which Star Wars TV spot was included as there were obviously many to choose from.

Thanks for any updates or clarification!

Seems that I will have to do the DV first, as it does not appear on the horizon that I will be able to get the Hyperdeck.

I do not have laserdiscs, so I cannot say much.

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Thanks for the update. I think I’ve been able to piece together what the variant trailers were but would you be able to fill in the blanks for which TV spot was included for New Hope? I’m trying to figure out what this set had that I don’t already have in my collection. Was it one of the ones off of the later DVD set or something different? Thanks!

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Any idea where I can upload ~50GB files?
So that I wouldn’t ahve to seed from a torrent to everyone.

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 (Edited)

It only gives free 15 GB.
1h of DV is 13GB.
There are 4 tapes in the box-set.

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Williarob said:

Usenet 😃

That thing that is spamming google search results when I want to download an obscure album redirecting me to a usenet download, where I have to register and pay for that?

I guess I will have to use my university account on onedrive, where we have 5TB, but I will have to do it by june, because when I graduate they close my account.

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Check your PM.
You can do it with Mega 😉