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Questions about audio mixes

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 (Edited)

Does anybody know if there were any audio mixes for ANH beyond the mono, 35mm stereo, 70mm stereo, 85 mix, 93 mix, 2006 dvd mix, 97 SE mix and 2004 dvd mix?

Were there any other mixes for any other vhs releases or tv releases?

Also, was the ESB 70mm ever used as basis for ESB videos/laserdiscs/dvds other than the se ones? In part or fully. 

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You should probably ask that question in the preservation forum- It'll get more attention.

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I believe ESB's 70mm version was used for the super 8 films, but I may be mistaken - I'm only basing this on the fact that both have differences from the more known version.

A Goon in a Gaggle of 'em

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I think you named them all.  There's the original three--35mm stereo, 70mm 6-track, 35mm mono; and for later home release there's the '85 stereo, similar to the original, and the '93, similar to the 70mm.  Then the '97 5.1, which has its own unique flavour but contains similarities to all three originals in various places.  Then there's the one we don't talk about, the '04 abomination, which sounds absolutely nothing like what Star Wars is supposed to sound like in any way.

The '06 GOUT dvd contains the '93 soundtrack.

Empire and Jedi had 35mm stereo and 70mm six-track versions.  I don't think they were ever remixed in '85, or if they were, there are no substantial differences to be heard.  They were both remixed in '93, and of course '97 and '04.  Unlike the first movie, their '04 dvd versions still sound mostly good.  The '93 version of Empire resembles the 35mm in content, but has greater dynamics (although one sound effect is missing).  Empire's GOUT audio is compromised in dynamic range compared to the laserdisc--I suspect it may have come from a vhs master (either that or it happened during the AC3 encoding).  The special edition changes are supposedly true to its 70mm version, but since there are no recordings of it, it can't be stated as fact.  I don't think Jedi ever had any differences in content originally.  

 

It's hard to pick out one version as being the best, but I've become most accustomed to the '93 laserdisc track.  My pet project was to combine it with the special edition LFE to give it even more power and resemblance to the 70mm mix (or at least how I imagine that probably would have sounded).  While I was at it I also patched in the cell bay shootout from the '77 stereo, to eliminate the breaking glass sounds that were added in, and put the Falcon's 'hyperdrive deceleration' sound from the mono mix as a matrixed rear channel effect.  It sounds extremely awesome.

I've given some thought to trying to eliminate all of the other '93 additions to try to recreate the 70mm version as closely as possible, but I'm not sure if that will work, or is entirely worth it.  Hmm . . .

(Okay, enough plugging my own work.  lol)

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Here are ALL the English-language (domestic) audio mixes for Star Wars:

Theatrical (1977) Mixes:
- 1.0 Mono (1977 35mm Theatrical and some early-1980s TV broadcasts ONLY)
- 2.0 Stereo (1977, 1981 35mm Theatrical, early laserdiscs)
- 4.2 Six-Track (1977 70mm Theatrical ONLY)
Home Video (Pre-SE) Mixes:
- 1985 2.0 Stereo (remixed by Ben Burtt; included on early 1990s VHS tapes and mid- to late-80s laserdiscs, including Japanese Special Collection)
- 1993 2.0 Stereo (downmix of the 4.2 six-track with newly-added sound effects; included on 1993 Definitive Colleciton/1995 'Faces' laserdiscs, 'Faces' VHS, and 2006 Trilogy 'Bonus Discs')
SE Mixes
- 1997 5.1 Surround (theatrical SE mix, included on Japanese laserdiscs)
- 2004 5.1 Surround (SE DVD mix, with many technical problems - also included on Disc 1 of 2006 DVDs)

There.  If I've gotten anything wrong, let me know, but I think that's it.  I have the 1977 mono, 1977 stereo, and 1993 stereo in WAV format synched to the GOUT discs, and the 1985 stereo that hasn't been synched to anything yet.

What I can't get a good answer for is whether or not Empire and Jedi were remixed in 1985 (I know Empire was in 1993, since there's a sound effect missing in the 1993 mix), or if Jedi was in 1993.  And if the 1983/1985 mixes, if they exist, are available anywhere for Jedi (it's been deduced where the 1980 Empire mix would have to be if it's different from the 1985).

--edit--

Just noticed I posted pretty much exactly what Hairy Hen did.  Sorry about that - I've been battling a pretty bad cold for the past couple days, I'm not as observant as I should be.

a trolling bantha

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ChainsawAsh said:

- 2.0 Stereo (1977, 1981 35mm Theatrical, early laserdiscs)

 

Also on rental videos before 1985. I have the first rental UK video from 83, it claims it's stereo but the sound is actually mono. (not the mono mix, but the stereo mix in mono)

And in the time of greatest despair, there shall come a savior, and he shall be known as the Son of the Suns.

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Thanks for everybody's input. :)

So does anybody know if there were more sounds than one added or subtracted in the ESB 93 mix compared to the 35mm?

And does anybody know if the 93 ROTJ mix had anything added or subtracted in the way of sounds?

I think I read that the GOUT mix (for ANH at least) has a few new sounds added compared to the 93 mix.

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All three GOUT dvd soundtracks are exactly the same as the '93 laserdisc mixes.  There are no differences in content, only a reduced playback volume of 4 decibels on the GOUT due to the AC3 dialogue normalisation, and dynamic compression on Empire.

Compared to the original stereo version of Empire, the '93 remix is missing the sound of a snowspeeder spinning out of control just before the Imperial walker destroys the power generator.  Jedi's '93 mix has no changes in sound effects compared to the original.

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I'm too used to the 93 mix (what I grew up on) in the end I kinda like the 97 best, but then again haven't heard the 77 mono. (really want to) Is it that different and more complete like the 97 mix?

VADER!? WHERE THE HELL IS MY MOCHA LATTE? -Palpy on a very bad day.
“George didn’t think there was any future in dead Han toys.”-Harrison Ford
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LexX said:
ChainsawAsh said:

- 2.0 Stereo (1977, 1981 35mm Theatrical, early laserdiscs)

 

Also on rental videos before 1985. I have the first rental UK video from 83, it claims it's stereo but the sound is actually mono. (not the mono mix, but the stereo mix in mono)

The stereo mix was folded down supposedly to mono on the first issue rental betamax tape, but the vhs was in stereo.  I have also read that there was a vhs version that was rare that had the stereo folded down into mono, but have not been able to prove that claim, as i believe by this point in time most if not all vhs releases that were stereo were also mono compatible.

But both of these claims could be erroneous since there is a lot of wrong information on the internet, especially on wikipedia and imdb where anyone can post.

As far as i know the theatrical empire 35mm audio is only on the CAV full frame laserdisc of empire that did not have digital sound.

Jedi is the same in 93 as the 35mm cinema release in 1983 I believe, except they went back and removed the limiting.  Its strange on the empire sound effect missing though because i was reading an article with a guy who worked with burrt in 1993 and he claimed the only differences on empire and jedi was that there was no limiting applied, as in the went back to the master the tracks were derived from and used that as a base for the 1993.  Star Wars on the other hand had a fresh remix done in 93, and has seven mixes if you include the destroyed editions of 1997 and 2004 which i don't to me there are only 6, despite the changes the 1997 is authentic to the original three mixes, the 2004 is an abomination.  Which was not a deliberate creative decision the us dvd's were rushed, while the foreign 5.1 mixes don't have the swapped channels supposedly or the dialed down music at the end.

They could have been honest and done a recall like warners did for superman, or universal did for back to the future, i can remember back to when lucasfilm was on the cutting edge of technology and put out quality products.  These days they out out substandard dvd's years after the market was already there for them with bad colors, bad sound, bad updated cgi, and then release the originals in non anamorphic.

They were late to DVD and pretty much underperformed, not in terms of sales but the dvd's were lazily put together and rushed, when they did not need to be they had years between 1997 and 2004 to get it right.

Now they are dropping the ball on blu ray, the star wars trilogy on blu ray in any form is completely a non issue to lucasfilm when they can just reprint the same bad dvds from 2004 five times over and call it a day.

Just like the soundtrack releases for empire and jedi were completely unacceptable in 1997, but still no recall for fucked up quality control or a new release without the poor mixing, swap audio channels and worst of all the clean up they did on jedi completely ruined the soundtrack.  Dnr so harshly applied the dynamics are gone from the music, the sound quality ruined because lucas wanted a clean sound free of clicks and pops.

Sony just re-issued rcas non fixed releases twice instead of doing what fans of john's music deserved and going back and doing a newly transferred release from the elements available free of any problems.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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skyjedi2005 said:
LexX said:
ChainsawAsh said:

- 2.0 Stereo (1977, 1981 35mm Theatrical, early laserdiscs)

 

Also on rental videos before 1985. I have the first rental UK video from 83, it claims it's stereo but the sound is actually mono. (not the mono mix, but the stereo mix in mono)

The stereo mix was folded down supposedly to mono on the first issue rental betamax tape, but the vhs was in stereo.  I have also read that there was a vhs version that was rare that had the stereo folded down into mono, but have not been able to prove that claim, as i believe by this point in time most if not all vhs releases that were stereo were also mono compatible.

Like I said, I have the first rental VHS and it is in mono. Covers say stereo but it isn't.

Btw, what are the main differences with the 85 version and the original one? I think I have a video from 1994 (not a US or UK version) which I think is exactly the same as first video, with the lighter canyon shots and without added sounds to the Tantive IV door blowing scene. Sound is in stereo.

And in the time of greatest despair, there shall come a savior, and he shall be known as the Son of the Suns.

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LexX said:
skyjedi2005 said:
LexX said:
ChainsawAsh said:

- 2.0 Stereo (1977, 1981 35mm Theatrical, early laserdiscs)

 

Also on rental videos before 1985. I have the first rental UK video from 83, it claims it's stereo but the sound is actually mono. (not the mono mix, but the stereo mix in mono)

The stereo mix was folded down supposedly to mono on the first issue rental betamax tape, but the vhs was in stereo.  I have also read that there was a vhs version that was rare that had the stereo folded down into mono, but have not been able to prove that claim, as i believe by this point in time most if not all vhs releases that were stereo were also mono compatible.

Like I said, I have the first rental VHS and it is in mono. Covers say stereo but it isn't.

Btw, what are the main differences with the 85 version and the original one? I think I have a video from 1994 (not a US or UK version) which I think is exactly the same as first video, with the lighter canyon shots and without added sounds to the Tantive IV door blowing scene. Sound is in stereo.

The 1985 mix was a digital mix that had less limiting applied to it and was most likely designed with home viewing in mind?  

I don't know if its just a bit louder sounding than the 35mm mix, i do know reportedly the only difference between the 77 and 85 is the added threepio tractor beam line from the mono mix.

Though you really won't notice a difference all that much with a tape with the 85 and a tape with the 77, it is were the laserdiscs and a good speaker home audio setup make all the difference apparent.

The original analog mix sound rather week in 2 channel stereo. does not have the extra frequency response of the 70mm six track or the extra loud ass kicking bass.

I'm not saying the stereo mix sucks it just suffers the same problems all pre digital analog 35mm tracks do, and the limitations with recording equipment back then, mixing equipment.  Dolby has come a long way since then.  Though people still fondly remember seeing a 70mm presentation if they were lucky of certain films people who saw superman or star wars on that consider it the definitive way to watch the film.

Like a good many soundtracks though star wars has to be played really loud to appreciate it.   Doing that for me irons out some of the problems i have with the 35mm original mix from 1977.

I never really liked the 45 magnum sounds and the breaking of glass heard on some of the other flavors of the soundtracks through the years, i think the one i heard the most is the 85 because thats what is on the 1992 vhs tapes.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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skyjedi2005 said:

As far as i know the theatrical empire 35mm audio is only on the CAV full frame laserdisc of empire that did not have digital sound.

If that's then what's on the vhs tapes from 84 onwards before thx?

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skyjedi2005 said:
The 1985 mix was a digital mix that had less limiting applied to it and was most likely designed with home viewing in mind?  

I don't know if its just a bit louder sounding than the 35mm mix, i do know reportedly the only difference between the 77 and 85 is the added threepio tractor beam line from the mono mix.

Something I think Moth3r posted from some site said that there was some sweetening or something on the 85 audio.

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Maybe the same, so i made a slight error i meant the best presentation on laserdisc because it was not time compressed like the first issue clv laserdisc which had slight speed up.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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LexX said:
Btw, what are the main differences with the 85 version and the original one? I think I have a video from 1994 (not a US or UK version) which I think is exactly the same as first video, with the lighter canyon shots and without added sounds to the Tantive IV door blowing scene. Sound is in stereo.

By lighter canyon shots do you mean when artoo is in the canyon, which people seem to think got darker in the 93/95 version?

 

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Was that not a continuity fix?  They changed a day shot into a night shot.

The cloudy overcast sky on the days of filming when it called for a perfectly blue sky and threepio in the desert they never have been able to fix you can still see the black dark cloudy sky, i think it rained and lucas still shot anyway.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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hairy_hen said:

All three GOUT dvd soundtracks are exactly the same as the '93 laserdisc mixes.  There are no differences in content, only a reduced playback volume of 4 decibels on the GOUT due to the AC3 dialogue normalisation, and dynamic compression on Empire.

Compared to the original stereo version of Empire, the '93 remix is missing the sound of a snowspeeder spinning out of control just before the Imperial walker destroys the power generator.  Jedi's '93 mix has no changes in sound effects compared to the original.

I've read that the 2006 GOUT of ANH may not have the exploding glass sounds from cameras being shot in the death star detention area and may be missing some other sounds and that maybe some sounds have been added like metallic clicks when artoo and Chewie are playing holochess on the Falcon.

Are you sure the 2006 GOUT version is exactly the same as the 93 version (apart from the ways you mentioned)?

 

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If the 2006 GOUT did not have the shattering glass of the cameras and alarms, I would have found it much more listenable.  But this unnecessary '93 addition most definitely is there.  There are various sounds added to R2 and Chewie's game on the mono mix and the SE, but not in the '93 version.  I could go back and compare them again to make sure, but I'm quite positive they are exactly the same.

Those shattering sounds are the only '93 addition that I find truly egregious, which is what lead me to substitute the '77 stereo mix for that scene.  I also reverted to the original again just before Luke and Han jump into the garbage pit because the added blaster sounds there didn't sound anything like the rest of them.  There are a few other additions I would probably prefer to not be there also, but they don't bug me on anywhere near that scale.  Certainly not enough to sacrifice the power of the '93 to get rid of them.

I think if I had a time machine one of the things I would do is go to see Star Wars in 70mm when it first came out.  By all accounts it was an awesome experience sonically.  The thrill of seeing/hearing it the first time can never be entirely recaptured, of course, but it would still rock.

The missing snowspeeder sound in the '93 Empire is somewhat mysterious, but I think it can be explained by its being mixed from an early 4-track master, and not a release print master.  If the snowspeeder effect was a late addition mixed in afterwards, when it was being readied for 35mm release, then its absence from an earlier generation copy would make sense.

Sometimes I wonder about the 70mm mix of Empire.  It is claimed by many that the changes to the SE version, both of dialogue and of music editing, are derived from the 70mm, but without any recordings of it available to compare, such statements must be considered unconfirmed.  Supposedly Empire came out in 70mm first, but if the 35mm version, which is 'missing' several things claimed to be in the 70, came out later, then why would a more 'complete' version of the soundtrack be released earlier?  With Star Wars, the less 'complete' stereo version was the first one out.  I'm a bit sceptical that those changes are actually in the 70mm version, although I could be wrong.  The SE music editing is definitely superior, because it doesn't hack up the music in some places the way the 35mm does, but the dialogue additions seem unnecessary.  I dunno.

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Vaderisnothayden said:
LexX said:
Btw, what are the main differences with the 85 version and the original one? I think I have a video from 1994 (not a US or UK version) which I think is exactly the same as first video, with the lighter canyon shots and without added sounds to the Tantive IV door blowing scene. Sound is in stereo.

By lighter canyon shots do you mean when artoo is in the canyon, which people seem to think got darker in the 93/95 version?

 

Yup.

 

And in the time of greatest despair, there shall come a savior, and he shall be known as the Son of the Suns.

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hairy_hen said:

 There are various sounds added to R2 and Chewie's game on the mono mix and the SE, but not in the '93 version.  I could go back and compare them again to make sure, but I'm quite positive they are exactly the same.

But what about on the GOUT version? My understanding is they weren't on the 93 version but were added on the GOUT. (The metallic clicks when Chewie and r2 push buttons playing holochess.)

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hairy_hen said:

Sometimes I wonder about the 70mm mix of Empire.  It is claimed by many that the changes to the SE version, both of dialogue and of music editing, are derived from the 70mm, but without any recordings of it available to compare, such statements must be considered unconfirmed.  Supposedly Empire came out in 70mm first, but if the 35mm version, which is 'missing' several things claimed to be in the 70, came out later, then why would a more 'complete' version of the soundtrack be released earlier?  With Star Wars, the less 'complete' stereo version was the first one out.  I'm a bit sceptical that those changes are actually in the 70mm version, although I could be wrong.  The SE music editing is definitely superior, because it doesn't hack up the music in some places the way the 35mm does, but the dialogue additions seem unnecessary.  I dunno.

So which are you doubting? That the SE changes represent the 70mm or that the 35mm was the later one? I've read that the 35mm was intended to be the more definitive one.