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Putting The Original-Original Trilogy's Prequel Story together

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wrote skyjedi2005 This :

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Do-you-feel-like-this-pre-1977-to-1983-is-the-real-Star-Wars-Canon/topic/9545/
How about Leia's real mother did not originally die and was in hiding.
This is what i put together reading the very small reference in the jedi novelization.
The original idea was probably she was one of the early leaders of the rebellion, was in hiding until palpatine found her when she went to visit her baby on alderaan at the organas and was arrested tried for treason and executed. The drama would have been very strong here because she would expect anakin/vader to protect her from palpatine but he stands back and does nothing when she is put to death. Perhaps she was tortured to find the skywalker heir, or obi wan's hiding place?
These are far better story points than "she died of a broken heart". Like Luke says in that g4 parody "that is retarded" and i have to agree.

 

What skyjedi2005 wrote has made me want to know more about The Original-Original Trilogy's Prequel Story.

originaltrilogy.com is for Preservation of the OOT films....

So, I'm starting this topic for Preservation Efforts of The Original-Original Trilogy's Prequel Story and to piece the OOT's Prequel Story together.

Let's unlock the secrets of the untold "Original Prequel Trilogy" (OPT).

 

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Darth Vader's OOT Origin of the injuries:
http://www.theforce.net/swtc/injuries.html
The second draft of The Empire Strikes Back screenplay tells an alternative story, indicating that Vader fell into a nuclear reactor shaft rather than lava. In this case, his infirmities may have something to do with mutation, radiation sickness and extensive cancer.

Update 4: Edited to make shorter

Note that Lucas had to change main things of the Vader that We know in the OOT to make his Revenge of the Sith's vader.

http://www.secrethistoryofstarwars.com/visualdevelopmentofdarthvader.html

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/injuries.html#skeleton

note that OOT's Vader has eyebrows, but in the '04 SE dvds, Lucas had the eyebrows removed and also In the '04 SE dvds, added more burn scaring to vader's face.

I once saw a story inwhich Lawrence Kasdan was talking about the unmasked vader and said that Vader was a Mutant. I can not find the story on the web and I wondering if someone remembers it.

Here is a sketch of now an unmasked Vader from ESB: http://secrethistoryofstarwars.com/unmaskdrawing.jpg

From all that I have learn it seems that the Vader from ESB was indeed a radiated mutated person.

 

In the Return of the Jedi novel, Anakin fell into a molten pit, inwhich Anakin's back is burned. In the Return of the Jedi novel, only Anakin's back is said to burn and no details of other places.

Here in the classic back of unmasked vader's head scene from ESB, you can see the burn scaring up the back of his head: http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/dvd/ep5/ldvader2.jpg

but, also in the picture you can see that vader's head has more damage than burn scars.

From all of this , we can put together that the radiated mutated Vader from ESB had been burn up the back, like the vader in the Return of the Jedi novel.

It seem the "lava burns only" vader came sometime after the OOT was made and that the OOT vader's injuries are not made from lava burns only.

So.... in the End, It seems that the vader in OOT was both a radiated mutated person from falling into a nuclear reactor shaft and also had lava burns up his back from falling into a molten.

http://darthvader.blog.dada.net/archive/images/DarthVader.jpg

One of the best pictures of The old radiated mutated Burned Darth Vader from OOT

R.I.P (1976-1984)

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This is something that has interested me for some time and I was going to make a thread about it in the next few days. A while back I went through the original novels and shoting scripts and made a note of all refernces to past events with the hope of piecing together a prequel story that did not conflict with the established continuity. I don't have much time right now but I will type out my list of quotes and post it here in a few days.

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Zombie deals with this topic a lot in his Secret History of Star Wars book. Y'all should look into that.

You know of the rebellion against the Empire?

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Erikstormtrooper said:

Zombie deals with this topic a lot in his Secret History of Star Wars book. Y'all should look into that.

 

yeah I keep meaning to read that, I've dipped into it occasionally but haven't found the time to read the whole thing, I'll have to set aside some time for it.

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The more I think about it, the more it fits.
Anakin was a good man before his fall to the darkside.
Something happen to Anakin to made him turn to darkside.

After ROTJ was released, Lucas was asked about Luke and Leia's mother/Anakin's wife. Lucas said that he did not give her character much thought.

So, at the time of making the OOT, Luke and Leia's mother/Anakin's wife was more likely not the cause of Anakin's fall to the darkside like she was in Revenge of the Sith.

like I wrote before: Anakin was a good man before his fall to the darkside and Something happen to Anakin to made him turn to darkside.

I think that the fall into a nuclear reactor shaft in The second draft of The Empire Strikes Back screenplay was the Original cause of vader turning to darkside.

I think Darth Vader's OOT Origin is this:
After Anakin fell into a nuclear reactor shaft, Anakin found himself with mutations, radiation sickness and extensive cancer and Anakin turned to the darkside to save his own life. Years afterward, Obi-Wan saw what happened to Anakin and try to help Anakin, but it was too late. Obi-Wan and Anakin battled each other. The Battle ended with Anakin falling into a molten pit, inwhich the back of Anakin's body is burned which kills off the last remaining parts of Anakin Skywalker in his mind.

    this Darth Vader's OOT Origin fits the OOT. In ESB, after battling vader, Luke jumps and falls into a shaft which may have been foreshadowing Anakin's fall into a nuclear reactor shaft. then, In ROTJ, luke is "on his back in pain" from the emperor's lightning may have been foreshadowing Anakin "on his back in pain" as his back was burned in the molten pit. 

Also In ROTJ, the Dying vader throws the emperor into a reactor shaft which may have also been foreshadowing Anakin's fall into a nuclear reactor shaft or a type of Revenge for the falling into the nuclear reactor shaft which turned Anakin to darkside. The Original name for Return of the Jedi (the tittle is about Vader returning to good) was Revenge of the Jedi (this tittle fits the Revenge for the falling into a nuclear reactor shaft idea). 

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The OOT Emperor

From the 1976 Star Wars Novel:
From Journal of the Whills:
"rotted from within though the danger was not visible from the outside." He explains,“ Aided and abetted by restless, power-hungry individuals within the government, and the massive organs of commerce, the ambitious Senator Palpatine caused himself to be elected President of the Republic. He promised to reunite the disaffected among the people and to restore the remembered glory of the Republic. Once secure in office he declared himself Emperor, shutting himself away from the populace. Soon he was controlled by the very assistants and boot-lickers he had appointed to high office, and the cries of the people for justice did not reach his ears.”

The Original Palpatine became President (not Chancellor like in GL's Prequels).

I think that the boot-lickers that The Emperor had appointed to high office were the Senate that The Emperor disbanded in Star Wars (a.k.a. Ep IV).


From
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palpatine#Character_creation

    When the original Star Wars trilogy was filmed, the Emperor was unnamed and his throne world unidentified. In Lucas's early draft scripts of Star Wars, the Emperor was identified as Cos Dashit. In one version, he rules from the Imperial throne world of Alderaan, while in a draft of Return of the Jedi the throne world is called Had Abbadon.
    Though it would not be used in film until the prequel trilogy, the first mention of the name Palpatine was in the prologue of the 1976 A New Hope novelization in describing Palpatine's rise to power. It is unclear, however, if Palpatine was, at the time, intended by Lucas to be the then-reigning Emperor. In any case, the name attached to the sole.


Could the Emperor in the OOT, not be Emperor Palpatine, but a new Emperor named Cos Dashit who came in power and then disbanded the Senate which had controled the past Emperors.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Cos_Dashit   
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Also

I know most OOT fans know this one.

The OOT Owen Lars is Kenobi's brother:
From the Return of the Jedi novel, Obi Wan Kenobi's "From a Certain Point of View" speech states Owen Lars is in fact Kenobi's brother.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars_Episode_VI:_Return_of_the_Jedi_%28novel%29#Differences_from_the_film

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From what i remember the original emperor was more of a combination of Richard Nixon and the Wizard of Oz.

 

The man behind the curtain who you never actually see but people speak of him with awe and fear.

 

I must say the description used by Alan Dean Foster in the 1976-77 novel happens to sound an awful lot like the emperor of Frank Herberts Dune.

And if that was not intentional on the part of Lucas then it probably is foster's own addition. Perhaps he is a fan of the novel dune?

 

Even in The Empire Strikes Back the emperor as he appears to be mysterious and dissembodied like a ghostly apparition.

As played by Clive Revill he was a much more powerful character becuase he was literally like in the original novel the unseen imperial voice, he sends his personal agents like vader to do his bidding.

In fact at one point the sith were the emperor's bodyguards as well as assassins in the script.

In rotj the emperor becomes more human even if slighly grotesque and satanic.

Lucas has not a single original idea the imperial world is actually taken from the novels of isaac asimov's empire trilogy and its sequel foundation trilogy. There it is called Trantor. Also there is a rebel world in his novels called Korell. LOL

The jedi are one part kurosawa samurai and another part lensman of the galactic patrol. Who are not answerable to anyone and are judge jury and excecutioner as they see fit.

 

Very few people have ever seen let alone had access to the 9 film outline. All we have is second hand info from People like Gary Kurtz that cannot really be taken on face value as evidance when he seems to think he knows star wars better than its actual author does.

Did the guy who wrote the annotated screenplays actually have access to the story outlines. How about Rinzler?

All the evidance seems to suggest all we have are prototype scripts and outlines and discarded ideas for a new hope that had been re-used for the prequels. and that no outlines actually exist for the prequels before he put pencil to paper in 1994. Never mind the sequel trilogy outline the biggest urban star wars myth of all.

 

It has never been a secret that both Luke and Anakin stem from a character called anakin starkiller in the rough draft script, and that both are actually the same prototype character in essence except one chosen to go over to the darkside and the other does not. Vader is Luke's shadow self or dark half. Which is pretty obvious after seeing the dual in the dagobah cave.

One of lucas favorite concepts is yin and yang, so he had kenobi the good father and vader the bad father etc.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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Hunter6 said:

The more I think about it, the more it fits.
Anakin was a good man before his fall to the darkside.
Something happen to Anakin to made him turn to darkside.

After ROTJ was released, Lucas was asked about Luke and Leia's mother/Anakin's wife. Lucas said that he did not give her character much thought.

So, at the time of making the OOT, Luke and Leia's mother/Anakin's wife was more likely not the cause of Anakin's fall to the darkside like she was in Revenge of the Sith.

like I wrote before: Anakin was a good man before his fall to the darkside and Something happen to Anakin to made him turn to darkside.

I think that the fall into a nuclear reactor shaft in The second draft of The Empire Strikes Back screenplay was the Original cause of vader turning to darkside.

I think Darth Vader's OOT Origin is this:
After Anakin fell into a nuclear reactor shaft, Anakin found himself with mutations, radiation sickness and extensive cancer and Anakin turned to the darkside to save his own life. Years afterward, Obi-Wan saw what happened to Anakin and try to help Anakin, but it was too late. Obi-Wan and Anakin battled each other. The Battle ended with Anakin falling into a molten pit, inwhich the back of Anakin's body is burned which kills off the last remaining parts of Anakin Skywalker in his mind.

    this Darth Vader's OOT Origin fits the OOT. In ESB, after battling vader, Luke jumps and falls into a shaft which may have been foreshadowing Anakin's fall into a nuclear reactor shaft. then, In ROTJ, luke is "on his back in pain" from the emperor's lightning may have been foreshadowing Anakin "on his back in pain" as his back was burned in the molten pit. 

Also In ROTJ, the Dying vader throws the emperor into a reactor shaft which may have also been foreshadowing Anakin's fall into a nuclear reactor shaft or a type of Revenge for the falling into the nuclear reactor shaft which turned Anakin to darkside. The Original name for Return of the Jedi (the tittle is about Vader returning to good) was Revenge of the Jedi (this tittle fits the Revenge for the falling into a nuclear reactor shaft idea). 

To tell you the truth, that sounds like something out of a comic book. Worse than what's there IMO.

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Thanks skyjedi2005 for the Isaac Asimov's Robot/Empire/Foundation series info.
It will in Putting The Original-Original Trilogy's Prequel Story together.
Isaac Asimov's Robot/Empire/Foundation series of novels, the Galactic Empire     
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galactic_Empire_%28Asimov%29

    Isaac Asimov's Robot/Empire/Foundation Trilogy is more likely one of the backbones in making The Original-Original Trilogy's Prequel Story. Maybe it is Original order of the OOTP, first the Robot story, then the Empire story and finally the Foundation story. This order also fits the OOT, Star Wars with the Robot story (SW starts with C-3PO and R2-D2 and their story), then ESB with the Empire story and finally the Foundation story with how things started and ended (learning how vader started and his death).  
    Another part of the backbones in making The Original-Original Trilogy's Prequel Story is the Fritz Lang's 1927 science fiction film Metropolis. In Metropolis, The mad scientist Rotwang builds the android whose appearance heavily influenced the image of Lucas' C-3PO.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotwang
Vader/Anakin is more likely based on Rotwang.
In GL's EP I The Phantom Menace, Anakin is the maker of C-3PO which is true to Original-Original Trilogy's Prequel Story....but, all clue point that Anakin was 19 or 20 in The OOTP story and not 8 like GL's EP I. also it fits that the OOTP's Anakin made the protocol droid for his wife and not like GL's EP I which shows him making it for mother who was a slave and more likely did not need some thing like protocol droid.
    Rotwang has various mechanical body parts (like vader) one in which is a mechanical hand covered by a leather glove (like Luke and Vader). More likely the OOTP's Anakin was more like Rotwang and had some mechanical body parts even before become Vader.
I think the OOTP's Anakin had an mechanical hand from the start.
     In GL's EP II AOTC, we see a battle in which GL's Anakin has his arm cut off and is force throw by GL's count dooku. I think this scene was in the OOTP story, but I think the OOTP's Anakin already had one mechanical hand and that a sith lord (not Count Poo-Poo) cut off the OOTP's Anakin last human hand. then the sith lord force thrown the OOTP's Anakin and the OOTP's Anakin fell into a nuclear reactor shaft (not the floor like in EP II) in which he was radiated. I do not think the OOTP's Obi-Wan was with the OOTP's Anakin like EP II shows.     

P.S.

Octorox said:
To tell you the truth, that sounds like something out of a comic book. Worse than what's there IMO.

 

Hey Octorox,
Darth Vader was Based on mainly comic book villains (Mainly Doctor Doom).
Hell, all of the OOT is like a comic book because it is based on Comic Books.

If you are not going to help in Putting The Original-Original Trilogy's Prequel Story together and you like the PT ...

then you need to go to TF.N. because most people on OT.com hate GL's PT. If you hate GL's PT, then help out and not judge what 

people write because People are trying to put the all parts together to learn about The Original-Original Trilogy's Prequel Story, Good or bad.

 

 

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This is something I've really thought about a lot. There are so many plot holes in the PT, some less obvious than others that I've never actually seen addressed by even the most probing of fans.

First of all, Anakin Skywalker's upbringing. Owen Lars states knowingly to Beru that he is afraid of Luke having "too much of his father in him", which infers that he actually had some experience with Anakin and certainly not that he was a mere step-brother who came into his life much later on and only momentarily.

Also, during the scene in Obi-Wan's hut it is revealed that Owen Lars thought Anakin should have "stayed here" (Tatooine) and not gotten involved in the Clone Wars. This suggests two things; first of all that Owen knew Anakin while he was living on Tatooine, because it would otherwise be nonsensical for him to make judgements about his leaving Tatooine (particularly when according to GL's PT staying would have meant remaining a slave, something even the gruff figure of Owen Lars couldn't have supported). Secondly it suggests that Anakin left Tatooine with the specific purpose of "getting involved" with the Clone Wars in a "damn, fool-idealistic crusade" with Obi-Wan. This scene does not suggest at all that Anakin left Tatooine before the Clone Wars. He left in order to become a Jedi Knight during the Clone Wars, if my reading of this scene is accurate.

Another hint as to the relationship between Anakin, Owen and Obi-Wan is given when Owen states that he believes Obi-Wan to have died around the same time as Luke's father. As both Anakin and Obi-Wan are, in fact, alive this could be taken to mean that Owen was aware of Obi-Wan's metaphorical perception of the "death" of Anakin Skywalker and applied the same judgement to Obi-Wan himself, perhaps believing him to have surrendered himself to the new persona of "Ben Kenobi".

Another thing that's very up in the air is the nature of the Clone Wars. In "Dark Empire" Luke finds himself on board a "dungeon ship", which he says is the same kind they used to transport Jedi during the Clone Wars. It's possible to speculate, then, that the Clone Wars may have been a war against the Jedi, involving mass execution and imprisonment of the Jedi. Anakin may have switched sides in this war in order to enjoy the greater power of the Dark Side having been corrupted. At which he point he "helped" hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights. "Before the Dark Times, before the Empire..."

Well, that's all I can think of off the top of my head...

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I'm not sure of the source of conjecture, but was it also rumoured that "Obi-Wan" could actually be OB-1 as some kind of clone serial number? Perhaps Ben being the original. I'm not sure. It's never made much sense to me what "Obi-Wan" means - or if it really is a case of changing his name to go into hiding (but, um, wouldn't his surname be a big giveaway?!), or if it's just some Jedi thing. Not sure, could be I imagined the whole thing myself in a moment of denial of the PT.

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TheoOdo said:

This is something I've really thought about a lot. There are so many plot holes in the PT, some less obvious than others that I've never actually seen addressed by even the most probing of fans.

First of all, Anakin Skywalker's upbringing. Owen Lars states knowingly to Beru that he is afraid of Luke having "too much of his father in him", which infers that he actually had some experience with Anakin and certainly not that he was a mere step-brother who came into his life much later on and only momentarily.

 

 

I find the most interesting thing about this scene is that when saying "there's too much of his father in him" Beru smiles and it is clear she remembers Anakin fondly, so I wonder could Beru be Anakin's sister?

I know it seems far fethched as Owen would be Ben's brother (or at least half-brother/step-bother as they have different surnames) and Beru would be Anakins sister, but if Ben first met Anakin (and Beru) when visiting his Brother it wouldn't be much of a stretch, and this would mean they are still luke's real Aunt and Unkle.

 

 

Also, during the scene in Obi-Wan's hut it is revealed that Owen Lars thought Anakin should have "stayed here" (Tatooine) and not gotten involved in the Clone Wars. This suggests two things; first of all that Owen knew Anakin while he was living on Tatooine, because it would otherwise be nonsensical for him to make judgements about his leaving Tatooine (particularly when according to GL's PT staying would have meant remaining a slave, something even the gruff figure of Owen Lars couldn't have supported). Secondly it suggests that Anakin left Tatooine with the specific purpose of "getting involved" with the Clone Wars in a "damn, fool-idealistic crusade" with Obi-Wan. This scene does not suggest at all that Anakin left Tatooine before the Clone Wars. He left in order to become a Jedi Knight during the Clone Wars, if my reading of this scene is accurate.

Another hint as to the relationship between Anakin, Owen and Obi-Wan is given when Owen states that he believes Obi-Wan to have died around the same time as Luke's father. As both Anakin and Obi-Wan are, in fact, alive this could be taken to mean that Owen was aware of Obi-Wan's metaphorical perception of the "death" of Anakin Skywalker and applied the same judgement to Obi-Wan himself, perhaps believing him to have surrendered himself to the new persona of "Ben Kenobi".

 

 

I agree that Anakin leaving Tatooine specifically because of the clone wars does make sense, but there is nothing said which rules out him leaving before the clone wars for some other idealistic cause.

I think it is clear that Owen is aware to some degree that Ben is responsible for Anakins death, even if it's just because he led him to the war and he has never forgiven him which is why he is so keen to prevent Ben having any interation with Luke, I don't think he considers him dead on even a metaphorical level he just wants to keep Luke away from him.

Another interesting problem is why has Ben not gone by the name of Obi-wan since before the twins were born, the biggest critisism of this plot point is that it's not a very good way to hide, but if Luke is going by his real name and living with relatives, and Leia is actively involved in galactic politics then it's clear nobody is really in hiding it's just that no one is looking, which is backed up by the ROTJ novel which says that Anakin didn't know the Twins' mother was pregnant and if he didn't find out about his son until after the battle of Yavin then there is no need to hide, so maybe the reason Obi-wan is using the name Ben is because that is his real name! To me it would make a lot more sence than having one brother with a fairly standard name (Owen) and one with an exotic name (Obi-wan), maybe Obi-wan is a name given to him by the Jedi and he stoped using it after they lost the war.

 

 

Another thing that's very up in the air is the nature of the Clone Wars. In "Dark Empire" Luke finds himself on board a "dungeon ship", which he says is the same kind they used to transport Jedi during the Clone Wars. It's possible to speculate, then, that the Clone Wars may have been a war against the Jedi, involving mass execution and imprisonment of the Jedi. Anakin may have switched sides in this war in order to enjoy the greater power of the Dark Side having been corrupted. At which he point he "helped" hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights. "Before the Dark Times, before the Empire..."

Well, that's all I can think of off the top of my head...

 

we'll that's EU so I tend to ignore it, all we know about the clone wars is that Ben and Anakin served Senator Organa and were pilots for the Old Republic, and that the Jedi defeated a race of Warriors who wore armour the same as Boba Fett's (ESB novel), I don't even think it specifically stated wether the formation of the Empire was the cause or the result of the war (or neither), the descriptions of the formation of the empire and Palpatine's rise to power in the ANH and ROTJ novels contradict each other but both suggest that it happened through political corruption rather than as the result of a war, but the two could obviously be related.

 

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From
http://www.themovieblog.com/2008/04/obi-wan-kenobi-is-a-clone
wil masisak
George Lucas gave backstories for the characters in ‘77 or ‘78 in which Ben Kenobi’s clone was named OB-1 (which is the character from the series. Also, Ben Kenobi was much older than OB-1 would have appeared in the movie.

I am going to look into The OB-1 clone also to see if there is true in it or not. in the OOT, Obi-Wan and Owen are brothers (ROTJ Novel), so I think if the cloning thing is true then it maybe Anakin/vader killed the Ben Kenobi clone and thought it was the real Obi-Wan Kenobi. Then, the real Obi-Wan Kenobi used the name Ben Kenobi. Why did Obi-Wan Kenobi used the name Ben is a big question and why did Obi-Wan Kenobi in hiding, keep his last name "Kenobi". Maybe Obi-Wan Kenobi was using his clone's name (Ben Kenobi) in hiding because Vader thought he killed the real Obi-Wan Kenobi. Maybe some of The clones in The OOT's Clone Wars story were Jedi Clones.
Think about from the ROTJ script:
LUKE
You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my
father.
BEN
You father was seduced by the dark side of
the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker
and became Darth Vader. When that happened,
the good man who was your father was
destroyed. So what I have told you was
true... from a certain point of view.

Maybe Vader did kill Anakin... from another certain point of view.
Maybe Vader killed Anakin's clone.
I think it fits the "Anakin fell into a nuclear reactor shaft, Afterwards, Anakin's body was deformed and dying" idea.
think about it:
a deformed and dying Anakin see the clone of himself which is the way he once was. How do you think a deformed and dying Anakin would react to this.


p.s.
A clue in the Obi-Wan and Owen are brothers thing is their first names.

Their last names "Kenobi" and "Lars" are not the same maybe cuase "Kenobi" is a jedi name or they are half brothers or Owen is using his mother's maiden name of "Lars" and  

Obi-Wan is using his father's last name of "Kenobi" or Obi-Wan is using his mother's maiden name of "Kenobi" and  Owen is using his father's last name of "Lars".

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thanks TheoOdo.

I don't like EU, but this :

Another thing that's very up in the air is the nature of the Clone Wars. In "Dark Empire" Luke finds himself on board a "dungeon ship", which he says is the same kind they used to transport Jedi during the Clone Wars. It's possible to speculate, then, that the Clone Wars may have been a war against the Jedi, involving mass execution and imprisonment of the Jedi. Anakin may have switched sides in this war in order to enjoy the greater power of the Dark Side having been corrupted. At which he point he "helped" hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights. "Before the Dark Times, before the Empire..."

 

seems to fit others things I had learn about The OOT's Clone Wars story was the Mandalorian supercommandos (bobba fett was a Mandalorian supercommandos who battled in the clone wars in the OOTP story) hunted the Jedi and that the clones may have been the Supercommandos (a.k.a. Supersoldiers) and Jedi Clones (to aid in hiding the jedi) in The OOT's Clone Wars story.

 

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This may add to the Obi-Wan clone idea or not:

"Ben", Hebrew for "son of", common in inscriptions on gravestones.

so, Ben Kenobi could means son of Kenobi.

Sometimes in Sci-fi stories a clone will be called an offspring of the original. A son is a male offspring.

maybe Ben Kenobi means an offspring of the original Kenobi.

 

Now, I do not think that the Ben/obi-wan in Star Wars (Ep IV) is a clone. I know he was not.

But, the real obi-wan in hiding may have been using the name of the clone of himself in the OOTP backstory.

 

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I'm pretty sure Obi is from the belt or sash worn around kimonos.

You know the whole japanese language thing and all and the samurai influence.

as for Wan look it up in the dictionary.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought that the novelization for ANH said that Vader and Obi-Wan fought and Vader fell into a volcano.  I don't remember the radiation stuff from TESB. 

I would think that in ANH, the Emperor wasn't really going to be the main villain, or really even that important of a person. He is only mentioned in the novel, and there he is protrayed as a shadowy figurehead, and basically the military and officals like Tarkin actually held most of the power. Even Vader  listened to Tarkin, and ultimately took orders from him, even though he was sent by the Emperor.  Then, starting with TESB, the emperor becomes a more powerful and important figure.

Also, there had to of been more between Anakin/Uncle Owen that the prequels gave us. clearly Owen had a big grudge against Anakin, and something more than just one single meeting had to of happened.

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I know that Obi is japanese sash, but I thought that George Lucas may have used it also because OBI can stand for obliteration by incorporation.
but knowing George is not that smart, I will remove the obliteration by incorporation part of my post.

Obi (sash) is From Japan and Wan (Chinese abbreviation for the province of Anhui) is from China.

the name Anakin is a Surname like Wan.
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Number20 says
Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought that the novelization for ANH said that Vader and Obi-Wan fought and Vader fell into a volcano. I don't remember the radiation stuff from TESB.


it is in The second draft of The Empire Strikes Back screenplay and it seems at the time of making ESB (and maybe ROTJ) it was used.
(Lawrence Kasdan said that Vader was a Mutant. I think is this is in the Secret History of Star Wars or on www.starwarz.com).

The Duel between Anakin and Obi-wan always ended with Anakin falling into fire (a volcano or a molten pit).

But I think the falling into the nuclear reactor shaft was why Anakin turned to the darkside in the OOT backstory.

Both the falling into fire (a volcano or a molten pit) and falling into a nuclear reactor shaft seem to be true.

looking at the design of The unmasked vader from ESB and ROTJ, The OOT vader shows signs of both.

OOT vader with a burn on the back of his head which shows the falling into fire:

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/dvd/ep5/ldvader2.jpg

OOT vader face looks like somebody with radiation sickness which shows the falling into a nuclear reactor:

http://darthvader.blog.dada.net/archive/images/DarthVader.jpg

Also Lucas in the '04 DVDs changed the unmasked vader in ROTJ to match the lava burn-only Vader of EP III.

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/dvd/zs/rotj/unmasked2.jpg

 

 

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Hunter6 said:

I know that Obi is japanese sash, but I thought that George Lucas may have used it also because OBI can stand for obliteration by incorporation.
but knowing George is not that smart, I will remove the obliteration by incorporation part of my post.

Obi (sash) is From Japan and Wan (Chinese abbreviation for the province of Anhui) is from China.

the name Anakin is a Surname like Wan.
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Number20 says
Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought that the novelization for ANH said that Vader and Obi-Wan fought and Vader fell into a volcano. I don't remember the radiation stuff from TESB.


it is in The second draft of The Empire Strikes Back screenplay and it seems at the time of making ESB (and maybe ROTJ) it was used.
(Lawrence Kasdan said that Vader was a Mutant. I think is this is in the Secret History of Star Wars or on www.starwarz.com).

The Duel between Anakin and Obi-wan always ended with Anakin falling into fire (a volcano or a molten pit).

But I think the falling into the nuclear reactor shaft was why Anakin turned to the darkside in the OOT backstory.

Both the falling into fire (a volcano or a molten pit) and falling into a nuclear reactor shaft seem to be true.

looking at the design of The unmasked vader from ESB and ROTJ, The OOT vader shows signs of both.

OOT vader with a burn on the back of his head which shows the falling into fire:

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/dvd/ep5/ldvader2.jpg

OOT vader face looks like somebody with radiation sickness which shows the falling into a nuclear reactor:

http://darthvader.blog.dada.net/archive/images/DarthVader.jpg

Also Lucas in the '04 DVDs changed the unmasked vader in ROTJ to match the lava burn-only Vader of EP III.

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/dvd/zs/rotj/unmasked2.jpg

 

 

i have to disagree with you about the pics. pic 2 has nothing to do with being a mutant. the make up was pale with heavy dark eyes because he had been masked for 20 years and with the skin pale due to lack of any form of sunlight with the scars from lightsaber duel between anakin & Obi-Wan. The eyebrows were removed because he was supposed to have been badly burned and would have had no eyebrows left.  i highly doubt that he would have fell into a volcano and then into a nuclear reactor shaft in the back story at all. it would have been one or the other. the Volcano back story was the one i always remember since Star Wars first came out. Maybe Lucas toyed with the idea of changing that to a reactor shaft then decided against it but re-used that idea for the Emperors death instead. But he certainly wouldn't have had both fates happen to him. Is there any documentation about Anakin falling into a nuclear reactor shaft at all because i've never heard of this. It would be interesting to read.

 

ANH:REVISITED
ESB:REVISITED

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 (Edited)

The volcano stuff came from Mark Hamill:

"At the time STAR WARS was being filmed, I had no idea Darth Vader was my father," Hamill recalls. "I don't think Alec Guinness did, either, because in the scene where I ask him who my father was, he hesitated. Don't know how George made him do that. I didn't hear him saying, 'Maybe you don't really want to tell him,'" Hamill says, marveling at Sir Alec's performance.
"But it's tricky. I remember very early on asking who my parents were and being told that my father and Obi-Wan met Vader on the edge of a volcano and they had a duel. My father and Darth Vader fell into the crater and my father was instantly killed. Vader crawled out horribly scarred, and at that point the Emperor landed and Obi-Wan ran into the forest, never to be seen again."
"Now I wonder if it's true? I mean, there are so many things. For example, remember the Clone Wars? They could have cloned my father.

http://www.stars.handshake.de/starlog.htm

 

well darth vader was not luke's father in Star Wars (Ep Iv):

http://secrethistoryofstarwars.com/birthoffatherskywalker.html

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http://www.theforce.net/swtc/injuries.html
The second draft of The Empire Strikes Back screenplay tells an alternative story, indicating that Vader fell into a nuclear reactor shaft rather than lava. In this case, his infirmities may have something to do with mutation, radiation sickness and extensive cancer.) The Emperor's supposed involvement is interesting, as is the implication that Vader escaped under his own strength.

http://boards.theforce.net/classic_trilogy/b10002/8708417/p13
The Notion of vader being Luke's father first appeared in the second draft [of ESB]. Vader became attached to the dark side while he was training to become a Jedi. He became a Jedi and killed most of the Jedi Knights; very few escaped. Ben fought Vader and pushed him down a nuclear reactor shaft. One of his arms was severed, and Ben believed he had killed Vader; in fact, Vader survived and became a mutant. - Annotated Screenplays

STAR WARS: The Annotated Screenplays
http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-Screenplays-Laurent-Bouzereau/dp/0345409817

Ben fought Vader and pushed him down a nuclear reactor shaft, One of his arms was severed. This is like what happens to luke in ESB. One of luke's arms was severed and he fall into shaft. think for a moment.....could what happen to Luke in ESB be mirroring what happen to vader in The second draft of The Empire Strikes Back screenplay. Could it be that at the time of making ESB the fall down the nuclear reactor shaft was the Origin of Darth Vader.

Here is artwork of the front of vader's face from ESB: http://secrethistoryofstarwars.com/unmaskdrawing.jpg

Finally, the world was given a brief glimpse of the man underneat the helmet. "I shot this scene very carefully," director Irvin Kershner says. "When the captain comes in and Vader is sitting in his capsule with his back towards us, all you see are scars on the back of his neck for a second. I didn't want the audience to see anything else. I imagined that beneath the mask Vader was hideous; his mouth was cut away and he had one eye hanging low." http://www.secrethistoryofstarwars.com/visualdevelopmentofdarthvader.htm

Now the ROTJ Vader:

Return of the Jedi gave us some slight modifications as well, notably a further enhancement of the vocal flanging to make it seem more processed and electronic than in Empire Strikes Back, perhaps because the unmasking scene at the end would reveal a design that shows that Vader's natural voice is processed and amplified through an electronic system. The unmasking scene required more development be done on Vader. Since making Empire Strikes Back , Lucas had decided to turn Vader from a villain into a sympathetic character, unmasking and redeeming him in the final drafts. Because he was no longer a hideous monster, he was re-written as a "softer" and more human character--one early draft had him scarred and with a cloudy eye and a grey beard, but for the final version he was turned even more sympathetic, instead presenting him as a pale old man. This unmasking scene also necessitated a more elaborate design of the helmet. It is revealed to actually be three pieces,with the third piece being the actual mouthpiece which vocalises Vader's speech and processes his breathing. The cybernetic aspect is emphasized once again, with all sorts of vents, buttons and technological pieces decorating the helmet. Below is the prop used in this scene: Contrast that with the crude and simple two-piece mask used in Star Wars. Lucas also gave us insight into the extent of Vader's internal cybernetic re-construction--as Vader is being electrocuted, his skeleton is made visible, revealing his legs and arms to be fully or partially robotic, and his neck vertebrae to be artificial, perhaps explaining his respiration dependence as due to complete paralysis. Dr. Curtis Saxon has made an insightful commentary on this aspect. Below are screencaps provided by him which illustrate these things:

http://www.secrethistoryofstarwars.com/visualdevelopmentofdarthvader.htm

 

Now the rebooted Vader of Revenge of the Sith:

Finally, when it came time to making Revenge of the Sith, Lucas had to make specific choices regarding these elements that were previously only hinted at. Firstly, it was revealed that all of Anakin's limbs are artificial. Secondly, Anakin suffered no such paralysis in his "volcano" tumble, and in fact he is quite easily capable of breathing on his own, whether it is when he is clawing his way up the Mustafar slope or when it is in the medical chamber. It is strange that the film completely ignores this "iron lung" aspect, which was originally the very impetus of the whole cybernetic transformation.

In the film, a large gap exists between the scene where the medical droids begin work on him and the next time we see him, where he is more or less completed and already in the suit. Such a huge jump in time makes it seem as though Anakin has neither any respiratory needs, nor has any integral cybernetic enhancements to his organs or tissues, contrary to what Return of the Jedi implies. The emphasis is instead placed on his horrible imprisonment, reflecting the "tragic" view of Vader that the prequels show. We do, however, get a brief glimpse of the inside of the helmet, showing us high-tech HUD displays and a red-tinted electronic perspective (similar to Terminator). Lucas had to also make a decision on how to visually portray the Vader suit. Rather than making a choice with chronological consistency in mind, in other words going with the suit shown in Star Wars , Anakin was instead given the cyborg-emphasized design of the later two sequels. This design was given even more robotic overtones however--the hand-sculpted mask of the original films was remade using a robotic tool to ensure the mask was perfectly symmetrical. The chestbox was now made to be fully integrated into Vader's torso, creating a cyborg look. Finally, the helmet was made to connect underneath the breastplate, instead of overlapping on top as it did in the original films--this subtle but effective re-design gave Vader a more robotic look. Finally, Star Wars was altered where possible to match the depiction seen in the subsequent entries--James Earl Jones' voice was enhanced for the 2004 DVD release to sound more like the electronic version of Empire Strikes Back, Return of the Jedi and Revenge of the Sith .

http://www.secrethistoryofstarwars.com/visualdevelopmentofdarthvader.htm


Both the falling into fire and falling into a nuclear reactor seem to play into the Unmasked Vader, we see in EBS and ROTJ

Maybe George had not made up his mind on which one he wanted by the time the OOT was finish.

The OOT's Vader seem have both Origins.

If you like the falling into fire idea, then Anakin falls into fire (a volcano or a molten pit).

If you like the falling into a nuclear reactor idea, then Anakin falls into a nuclear reactor.

or if you like both, then it is both.

some-fans like Star Wars (Ep IV) and do not see vader as luke's father.

So, pick the one you like and research it.

 

 

For myself, I think the Vader falls into a volcano or a molten pit idea is a dumb idea because a person would just burn up on (or before) Impact.

more likely the some of the people who worked on ESB thought this too and GL changed it to the vader falls into a nuclear reactor and is radiated idea. 

Now, GL has millions of Yes-men (like Rick McCallum) around him and the falls into a volcano or a molten pit idea returns for EP III.

I feel like most things in the PT, it is a really dumb idea.

Like The Visual Development of Darth Vader says:

he (vader) is quite easily capable of breathing on his own (in Ep III).

(EU BULL) The novelisation, however, states that Anakin's lungs were destroyed by breathing in the harmful super-heated gases.

one has to wonder why Obi Wan and Padme suffered no such side effects despite only slightly less extreme exposure.

And so on with the really dumb old George Lucas ideas.

Man I wish Lawrence Kasdan and Irvin Kershner work on the PT.

I'll take a mutant cyborg (cybernetic arms, legs, lungs, back and god only knows) vader in a iron-lung suit  over  the Burn Quadriplegia vader.

 

 

 

 

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I know this is a response to a really old post but here it goes. I know that the “Dark Empire” was EU but both they and the Zahn series (EU) explored the idea of cloned Jedi and force users. Where did they both get that idea? Zahn used the cloning tech to create stormtroopers not far off from the clone troopers that we were sold. Are there some writings, conversations, or other recorded media that reveals insight into the OOT intentions regarding the clones. I really like the idea that OB-1 is a clone and “Ben” being a similar to the Hebrew or Arabic of Ben or bin meaning “son of”. The idea of Owen and Obi-wan being brothers seems be something that made it to the ROTJ novel but was reconsidered in the movie version because of the familiarity by Owen and Beru in ANH. I think there was an intent for a real family connection but they realized that the Anakin following Obi-wan on a “damned fool crusade” would not make sense. Now if Obi-wan followed Anakin then it would make sense. So I think it was caught in ROTJ movie but not caught before the novel until in print. Just my thoughts.

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I don’t like the idea of Force-sensitivity being clonable because that raises the question of why The Emperor didn’t clone Vader. I also think that Obi-Wan and Owen being brothers was a Kasdan idea that Lucas rejected because Lucas didn’t mention it when he explained the backstory to Kasdan in 1981 and it doesn’t appear in drafts of the screenplay from before Kasdan made his revisions.

If Plagueis shows up in the ST, not only will I refuse to watch the movies, but I won't so much as watch the trailers, either. - DuracellEnergizer

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That’s one of the questions of the clone force users. If that was an original concept. Maybe there is a host of problems. Zahn explored that too but again in the EU. That’s why was wondering if there was any recorded media of that concept in the original backstory. It would explain a lot as far as the Jedi’s Fire being extinguished from the universe and not trusted.