Print variations in '77 Star Wars — Page 3

timdiggerm said:

AntcuFaalb said:

Darth Mallwalker said:

seventiesfilmnut = Nerfherder = 7FN = same chap, right?

If so, then why does he have so many usernames?!

How familiar are you with ABC?

Not very. Should I be? :-)

Russ was kind and uploaded an avi of his 80's ITV-broadcast recording, and I must say this is a very nice transfer with most of the original timing intact, no gamma tweaks like those we're used to be seeing in the jawas-canyon was applied here, it's very film-like in its quality, this along with AntcuFaalb's bootleg is great reference material to the timing on Eastmancolor prints if I may venture an opinion like Threepio would say. Must've been awesome to have this one recorded in the 80's. Anyway, as I mentioned earlier his recording doesn't contain the credit roll, only the first credit card but look what I found:

^^ Instead of the iris, there's a dissolve.

The credit card is not video generated, it is identical to what we see on other prints with the same starfield and everything:

So, what the???

Haven't checked this source in detail yet but the source used is unique among all the transfers that's for sure, I also noticed what appears to be TV-cue dots.

Now there are... a lot of them? Seriously, the credits variations are ridiculous.

msycamore said:

Russ was kind and uploaded an avi of his 80's ITV-broadcast recording, and I must say this is a very nice transfer with most of the original timing intact, no gamma tweaks like those we're used to be seeing in the jawas-canyon was applied here, it's very film-like in its quality, this along with AntcuFaalb's bootleg is great reference material to the timing on Eastmancolor prints if I may venture an opinion like Threepio would say. Must've been awesome to have this one recorded in the 80's. Anyway, as I mentioned earlier his recording doesn't contain the credit roll, only the first credit card but look what I found:

^^ Instead of the iris, there's a dissolve.

The credit card is not video generated, it is identical to what we see on other prints with the same starfield and everything:

So, what the???

Haven't checked this source in detail yet but the source used is unique among all the transfers that's for sure, I also noticed what appears to be TV-cue dots.

Would be kinda cool if ITV still have the print or the telecined transfer on tape(or both!?) in a vault somewhere?!

I recorded this broadcast myself in the summer of 83' and again in christmas 1984 on my then trusty V2000

danny_boy said:

I recorded this broadcast myself in the summer of 83' and again in christmas 1984 on my then trusty V2000

Interesting, so this telecine was at least broadcasted three times, does your recordings contain the credits? if so, which ones: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Credits-Leaders-Thread/topic/12960/

I think your recordings would be a great asset to this project: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/1983-UK-TVS-Star-Wars-premiere-anybody-still-have-a-recording/topic/14122/

msycamore said:

danny_boy said:

I recorded this broadcast myself in the summer of 83' and again in christmas 1984 on my then trusty V2000

Interesting, so this telecine was at least broadcasted three times, does your recordings contain the credits? if so, which ones: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Credits-Leaders-Thread/topic/12960/

I think your recordings would be a great asset to this project: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/1983-UK-TVS-Star-Wars-premiere-anybody-still-have-a-recording/topic/14122/

 

median-of-three!

TServo2049 said:

Actually, now that I think about it, the presence of the clouds on the ITV print actually makes some sense - remember, it also lacks the Tantive burn marks, which means that the picture might have been derived from the same, or at least a similar, film source as the official video masters of the era. (I wonder if it has some of the same damage, like maybe those dark blobs during the saber training...)

After my quick look, the ITV appears to share the exact same splice glue as the 80's video masters, including the last reel up to the group shot before the credits. Makes a lot of sense as it also lack those tantive corridor marks. The opening crawl splice and the dissolve to the end credits makes this an odd beast...

 

msycamore said:

danny_boy said:

I recorded this broadcast myself in the summer of 83' and again in christmas 1984 on my then trusty V2000

Interesting, so this telecine was at least broadcasted three times, does your recordings contain the credits? if so, which ones: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Credits-Leaders-Thread/topic/12960/

I think your recordings would be a great asset to this project: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/1983-UK-TVS-Star-Wars-premiere-anybody-still-have-a-recording/topic/14122/

 

yes----

It was broadcast in October 82',May  83',December 84' ,July 86', somewhere in 88'---and possibily into the early 90's too----although I had lost interest in SW by that point.

I think this ITV broadcast is derived from a  different print to the one used for the 82' official VHS release as there is tear in it that runs across Luke's face when he is in the Lars homestead which seems to be absent from the VHS.

Will try and get screen grabs at some point.

Unfortunately my recordings from 83 and 84 are long gone(made on the long extinct but underated V2000)----i do have a copy of the 86' showing on VHS(duped from a friend in 2005).

Would it be possible to see some shots or scenes from your 86 transfer?

The 82 version is quite unique so it would be easy to confirm that it was the same (or different)

danny_boy, thanks for the info. Yes, it's definitely a different print and telecine but the splice glue and lack of Tantive corridor marks tell us that it is at least derived from the same or similar film elements for the most part that was used to create the 80's home video master. In the year of '82 three different pan & scan transfers saw the light of day, four if the PAL rental tapes weren't just straight NTSC to PAL conversions. Remember that we had Video 2000 at school back in the day, good players.

Russ, I'm pretty sure his version is the same telecine, the tear he described in the dinner conversation is on yours as well. I've also seen a few screenshots from his in some of the threads around here that match yours, no Tantive corridor damage. But it would of course be great to see some more screenshots from it, especially if the recording includes the credits.

Examples of cue marks on the ITV - broadcast...

a square with black and white moving stripes appears in the upper right corner signaling that an ad break is coming, an additional circular cue mark is also seen on four frames:

then this print also have these...

4 frames of motor cue:

4 frames of changeover cue:

first frame of the following reel:

I find the points of these reel breaks a little odd. Saw at least one other of these when Alderaan is blown to smithereens. Does it tell us anything about the source?

If it was the same telecine used for ITV's Christmas 1987 broadcast, it is the updated more common credit roll:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGnV6yC0QpI

Yet another cue mark:

Can you post an image of the composite with a layer of clouds from Puggo Grande?

Wait, forget it, as I found one here: http://www.hardbat.com/puggo/pics/PG/005.JPG

The unique dissolve to the credits on this broadcast still baffles me, the only thing I can think of is that it was done in order to have the revised '77 end credits in place. But why a dissolve when you can treat it like it was done on the home video master; make the edit point beginning with the last group shot... it's just weird. The print source is an opening day '77 one with the '81 opening crawl attached in a crude way, video samples of the opening and the end credits dissolve for the interested...

Opening shot edit and lack of corridor marks:  http://www.sendspace.com/file/y9rec4 (some corrupted frames in this one)

End credits dissolve: http://www.sendspace.com/file/1rqv9q

The familiar glue marks seen in the 80's home video print:

also at the last frame of the '77 opening shot:

Photo of a projected Derann Super 8 print:

Going by the various home viewing alternatives over the years, the updated composite was ironically more rarely seen.

none said:

Is there any sense of quality loss in the ITV end credit dissolve?  Would this have been something LFL would supply, or to fit timing, ITV would have snipped the film and created their own dissolve? 

Seems to be on par with the generation loss seen in the original, hard to see with the already bad source really. I assume this have to be the doings of the TV-station but it is the weird way they choose to do it. Attach the '81 crawl in the middle of the opening scene and create a dissolve to the revised credits instead of making the edit point on the last group shot.

none said:

I'm assuming ITV would have done their own conversion, figuring out which shots to pan/scan and which to squeeze. Are there many squeezed shots besides the credits?

Other than the added ANH-crawl and end credits there's no other squeezed footage.

If you compare with the original where the credit card appears in frame, it isn't centered because the way they choose to frame the scene isn't centered, which means no theatrical prints had this dissolve variation.

Thanks for the info, TServo! Hadn't noticed that the transition from '81 crawl to '77 flyover was a dissolve as well. There is panning in it alright, see the wipe to the Jawa canyon for one example but just like you said it's not as frequent as in other pan & scan transfers.

Home Video:

'82 - '92: No "burn" marks, cloudy x-wing take off composite

'92 - '95: "Burn" marks, cloudless x-wing take off composite

However all theatrical sources that has surfaced so far, does have the "burn" marks, cloudless composite or not.

I think it's quite sloppy that they didn't rectify this issue after the first batch of prints went out...

TServo2049 said:

The transition between the '81 crawl and '77 flyover is also a dissolve. Perhaps both dissolves were on the print itself - but to answer that question, we'd have to find a flat 16mm that specifically has the ANH crawl.

Had a second look at it and no, it's definitely a straight cut.

The dissolve to the end credits suggests the source had the opening day credits in place but it could also be a simple case were they wanted to have the credit card centered and didn't want to alter their set pan & scan decision - they had five options on how to treat it.

1) letterbox it

2) squeeze it

3) include the full body of Chewie

4) include the full body of Threepio

5) include one half of Chewie and Threepio

The operator went with nr 3, and maybe the dissolve was added so they could have the credit card centered. But then again, they opted to squeeze the credit roll...

I've started a "Star Wars Taxonomy" thread: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Star-Wars-Taxonomy/post/644708/#TopicPost644708

Please weigh-in.

All right, I have discovered yet another subtle print variation but this time I found it in reel 5. As I suspected, the credit roll and X-Wing matte shot were not the only things revised.

The very subtle difference is in the matte shot of the rebel base - while the live-action footage utilized for the shot is exactly the same, the timing of it is slightly different, causing us to see five frames less of it from the beginning and five more frames of it at the end in the 80's video master.

Top: Special Collection LD Below: '06 Bonus DVD

First frame:

^ see the different position of the rebel trooper in the middle of the frame.

Last frame:

So why the heck did they bother to revisit this shot? that's a good question but the reason for it may have been the blue streaks that appear across the frame at the end of the shot:

A video sample of the scene from the Special Collection resized to 16:9: http://www.sendspace.com/file/6f0g9o

As with the X-Wing matte shot, the same pattern follows...

Blue streaks:

• 35mm Widescreen bootleg (Moth3r)
• 35mm Widescreen bootleg (AntcuFaalb)
• 16mm (PuggoGrande)
• 16mm (Catnap)
• Super 8 Derann
• NTSC home video versions '82 - '92
• PAL home video versions '82 - '91
• UK ITV Broadcast version (1982)

No blue streaks:

• IB Technicolor prints
• Puggo Krig (Swedish 16mm print)
• Starkiller / MeBeJedi / TWC326 Fullscreen bootlegs
• US Special Letterbox Collector's Edition VHS '92 / SWE LD (Technidisc)
• DC LD / Faces / 2006 Bonus DVD
• French "Pyramid" LD ('94 pressing) '89 source?
• UK PAL Digitally Remastered Widescreen VHS '94
• PAL Digitally THX Mastered LD & VHS '95

Another reason for revisiting the Yavin temple matte shot other than those blue streaks may have been the slightly awkward framing (can clearly be seen when you match the cropping of the JSC with the GOUT in the adjacent footage.)

Another print variation can be seen in reel 3 - in the shot where the Stardestroyer is chasing the Falcon before it goes into lightspeed. Special Collection LD at the top and the 2006 Bonus Feature DVD (GOUT) at the bottom. I guess a Pan & Scan source would have been better to showcase the differences but I don't have one at hand at the moment.

GOUT-Frame 77593:

In the Special Collection print there are several of these crude marks which appears to be intended for laser impacts, they are absent in the GOUT print. You could almost mistake them for dirt.

GOUT-Frame 77604:

The left laserbolt are drawn all the way to the end of the screen in the Special Collection print, in the GOUT it disappears behind the ship.

GOUT-Frame 77607:

As you can see there is a clearly defined matteline where the laserbolt meets the Destroyer in the GOUT print. The laser fire throughout the sequence have been changed so that it appears to come from above or straight from the front of the ship instead. Or more accurately described, the Destroyer was layered on top of the laserbolts instead of vice versa.

The timing and intensity of the flash frames differs, the flash frames are quite muted in the Special Collection print where the ship is still visible whereas in the GOUT print there's a solid white one in all cases except one.

GOUT-Frame 77594:

GOUT-Frame 77601:

GOUT-Frame 77614:

GOUT-Frame 77615:

GOUT-Frame 77640:

GOUT-Frame 77641:

GOUT-Frame 77649:

The variation of this shot seen in the Special Collection print was also used in the infamous Holiday Special. I've only checked Moth3r's 35mm bootleg so far but I'm pretty sure the same pattern follows as for the previous differences. For those who don't have access to the SC LD, here's a short video only sample of the sequence: http://www.sendspace.com/file/5jk2oa I don't know, I kinda like this one better in some way, I miss those crude impact-marks in the other. Haven't checked yet if the audio mixes appears to match one of them better or not with all the impacts in this scene.

Oops, forgot this flash-frame:

GOUT-Frame 77610:

It's important this stuff... ;) (updated the first page) Still wondering if this could possibly be 1977 North American vs. International print differences...