What about the DTS tracks for the Japanese Super Bit DVD set? Are they useful? I have the set but I wouldn't know where to start when it comes down to ripping those.
Just a thought anyways. If I can give back even in a small way here, I would definitely try.
I just ran across this too.....
Alright folks, big update:
Together with ElDonate, we have found a way to preserve the original theatrical 5.1 mix. We didn't get it from a LaserDisc either.
I found a copy of the theatrical 6-track DTS CD's, and using a very old plugin for a very old version of winamp, I was able to extract the the 5 channel stems for the movie. It is 5 channels because theatrical DTS had it's LFE data stored in the surrounds, and DTS processors sent anything below 80hz in the surrounds to the sub.
What we have here then is exactly what you heard in a DTS cinema. And it is glorious.
I'll let ElDonate chime in about the process he took to create these tracks, but in the meantime, PM me if you're interested in getting the track. We encoded it into DTS-HD MA for syncing with the Blu-ray. ElDonate, thank you very much for taking the time to do this!
I can only host it for about a week, so if you want it, let me know soon. Hopefully after that, someone else can host or up a torrent.
Mr. Hammond, I think we're back in business!
“Alright twinkle-toes, what’s your exit strategy?”
Seriously? The Star Wars SE DTS theatrical discs have been discussed around here for several years, and it always hit a dead end because there was no way to do anything with the copies in private hands. This is big news if you've cracked that technical nut.
I would like to know if DTS Laserdisc tracks can be properly extracted though. The current Blu Ray of Mortal Kombat sounds weak compared to the LD.
Where were you in '77?
I wasn't even aware one could get a hold of such DTS CD-rom's....it can't be easy, right? And I'd bet it's expensive....is there a site that talks about these types of discs?
They turn up on Ebay occasionally. Price depends on whether you get into a bidding war with someone who owns a movie theater or not. ;)
Where were you in '77?
Good job guys! Its amazing you managed to get the theatrical mix. Now the question is, how does the theatrical mix compare to the LD DTS track?
Since "The Lost World" has a DTS soundtrack as well I bet you that would sound awesome too.
Am I mistaken about DTS being able to be analog and/or digital? I was trying to read about it a little but there are so many types of DTS and a lot of opinions on it's quality.
I found a copy of the theatrical 6-track DTS CD's, and using a very old plugin for a very old version of winamp, I was able to extract the the 5 channel stems forthe movie. It is 5 channels because theatrical DTS had it's LFE data stored in the surrounds, and DTS processors sent anything below 80hz in the surrounds to the sub.
What we have here then is exactly what you heard in a DTS cinema. And it is glorious.
I'll let ElDonate chime in about the process he took to create these tracks, but in the meantime, PM me if you're interested in getting the track. We encoded it into DTS-HD MA for syncing with the Blu-ray. ElDonate, thank you very much for taking the time to do this!
I can only host it for about a week, so if you want it, let me know soon. Hopefully after that, someone else can host or up a torrent.
You have a pm........
Whoa! That is really exciting news! I had actually been wondering about this since my local art house announced a 35mm screening of Jurassic Park but I doubted that would feature the DTS mix because I don't they're equipped for that.
The discs for films pop up occasionally and sometimes trade between 35mm collectors. The trick has always been the decoding and so I've never thought about getting any myself.
I'm guessing the LFE will be detected via processor and sent out to the sub prologic style?
What does it sound like? And what's the bitrate of these?
Drooling over the thought of the DTS disc for the SE trilogy mixes. And other theatrical tracks in DTS: Batman Forever, Ronin, The Matrix, Goldeneye, Tommorrow Never Dies, The World Is Not Enough to name a few.
Kinda funny that the LD still can't be cracked and the 5.1 decoded.
VADER!? WHERE THE HELL IS MY MOCHA LATTE? -Palpy on a very bad day.
“George didn’t think there was any future in dead Han toys.”-Harrison Ford
YT channel:
https://www.youtube.com/c/DamnFoolIdealisticCrusader
So here's a question....as I was looking @ Laserdiscs with DTS soundtracks it seemed that they were mostly CLV sets. Will the DTS audio sync with a CAV set without editing the speed of one or the other?
AFAIK, a film on CAV is exactly the same speed as CLV. There are just more side breaks to contend with.
Where were you in '77?
Thanks everyone for the feedback. DTS cinema discs can be had from a few places, but yes, not always easy to find nowadays. The content on them is digital, and are playable in a DTS cinema processor. That processor with the discs syncs to specific films via a printed timecode on the print. The beauty of the system was that the sound was off the film, and away from potentially being damaged. Since the timecode is simple and also very close to the picture, it was well protected.
The compression rate was something like 4:1 I believe, so our source for this project was technically lossy, but the final product was preserved in DTS-MA as to not lose any more quality. As for the LFE, it was in the surround channels (also helped save on disc space) and filtered out at 80hz. The DTS processor itself had this low pass filter built in, so it actually output 6 channels to a given cinema processor. ElDonate applied a similar filter and extracted that bass information so that we could make it a true 5.1 track for home use. The worry was that someone would have their surrounds not set to pass 80hz or below to a sub, and damage their speakers. He also adjusted the levels of the surrounds and sub based on how a DTS cinema processor was calibrated since that also differs from a home system. I'll let him explain that a bit more since I wasn't the one actually doing it. We based that information out of a DTS manual that we found.
This plugin for winamp is ancient, and never got updated when DTS started encrypting their CD-ROMs after about 04-05, so only films prior to that with DTS tracks could be utilized. I remember screwing around once with Kill Bill Vol. 2 when I first discovered it. I just never thought of putting it to any practical use.
In this case, this means the 97 special edition soundtracks could be ripped and preserved, if anyone can find the discs. I'd be up for doing that if someone can find them. I can only rip though, as I have no knowledge on how to edit it all together. ElDonate is a saint for doing the work he did!
I haven't done an A/B yet with the LaserDisc, but honestly, this mix does sound a bit different to my ears in a very very good way. It's perfect and just how I remember this movie sounding. Why Universal could not have done this is just beyond me.
“Alright twinkle-toes, what’s your exit strategy?”
I think a posting on the Star Wars preservation board about this would be a good idea, if only to gauge interest.
The discs for Star Wars and Jedi are in the hands of "top men" around here, but I'm not sure if they will want to loan them out again, as they got a bit scratched up the last time. The discs can be copied though.
Where were you in '77?
Wow, lots of responses :)
borisanddoris explained things pretty well and this couldn't have been done without him! Big thanks for allowing this project to see completion.
Everything was done according to a DTS whitepaper. That is to say, the front channels were left alone, the rear channels were attenuated by 3db, and the LFE extracted from the rears using an 80Hz crossover filter.
Since the source disc was 44.1KHz at 24.000fps, and the destination was to be 48KHz at 23.976fps, some adjustments were made in order to keep audio video synchronization and allow for Blu-ray spec audio. The upsampling to 48KHz was done with the highest quality, keeping original pitch and ensuring there was no jitter. Framerate conversion was done with the eac3to tool and it did a remarkable job.
The six tracks, which came on 7 reels, were then spliced together using frame accurate editing techniques in Audacity. This was done simultaneously using multitrack mode and it took quite a few tries to figure out each reel's splice point since each reel ended with a beep and began with a repeat of the previous reel's ending.
After the editing was done, the movie was tested several times to ensure synchronization throughout... speaking of the movie... (how's that for a segue? pretty bad, eh?)
This preservation requires that you have the original, store-bought Blu-ray. It also requires that you rip the movie to your hard disk via your preferred method of ripping. You'll only need the movie, not anything else. My vote goes to MakeMKV since it'll work on Linux, Windows, or Mac OS X. Many people fancy AnyDVD HD (which came in very handy when I was frightened that my HD-DVD player would stop working one day and I can confirm that it is a solid piece of ripping software). Once ripped, you'll have a large 20GB+ M2TS video file. Keep it in a memorable place.
Since I love cross-platform tools, the next tool you'll need is tsMuxer. tsMuxer is the tool you'll use to multiplex (mux) your DTSMA file with your M2TS file. If you're using the GUI, simply drag your M2TS and DTSMA files to the "Tracks:" section of tsMuxer's GUI. From here, you'll be able to select your destination type. The choice is ultimately yours, however I chose M2TS because I will not be exporting to physical media. You can choose to output in a Blu-ray or AVCHD compliant file structure for exporting to physical media if you so desire.
One thing I must mention before signing off. There was one change made. The original DTS bumper was, well, bumped. Since this track is meant for those with the original Blu-ray disc, it had to be cut since it does not appear in the original Blu-ray. There were plans to include this, however the original bumper is not the same as any bumper I've found. It's a shortened version of "The Digital Experience" which clocks in at around 19 seconds (see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtzEa62KXBE).
As for the '97 DTS mixes... what would they be mixed to? I'd certainly be up for the challenge this summer, depending on the destination (Blu-ray, De-Specialized Editions, something else?). It should take about a week per mix to get them just right.
I'm going to try to have a more detailed instruction set before tomorrow afternoon if anyone thinks it's necessary. If there is demand, I can also write a script to automate the conversion.
Nicely done you two. This may well give way to more fine theater audio presentation archives/restoration projects and in my opinion that is an awesome thing.
I agree that it is a shame Universal did not do this for Jurassic Park...whether you like the movie or not, as a whole, it is a historical piece of film-making that deserves the same care that the OT should have received.
With all this now happening it may be just the kick I need to pick up a Bluray drive and some discs so I can experience these in the highest quality possible.
Cheers
This is going to be fun. I've always regretted the time when theaters took out all their big systems and setups at the end of the Dolby-DTS war and all mixers toned their surround assaults down. You can't even find DTS theatrically any longer, if you're lucky enough to be watching 35mm chances are there's no DTS equipment.
For the 97 mixes (can't believe this is actually possible now) I'd say the easiest thing would be to match the DTS to a straight Laserdisc cap. Then you could add it to one of the broadcast versions, or even incorporate into other fan efforts. (I'm thinking this would give hairy_hen much to play with on his 70mm mix. He used the LFE on the lossy LD 5.1)
VADER!? WHERE THE HELL IS MY MOCHA LATTE? -Palpy on a very bad day.
“George didn’t think there was any future in dead Han toys.”-Harrison Ford
YT channel:
https://www.youtube.com/c/DamnFoolIdealisticCrusader
Whoa, cinema DTS preservations? I certainly wasn't expecting that!
I was going to point out the necessity of reducing the surround channels by 3 db and low pass filtering them at 80 hz for the LFE content, but I'm glad to see that has already been taken care of. I've heard it suggested that the first DTS laserdiscs did not always successfully adapt theatrical mixes to the home environment, because they forget to adjust the surround and LFE levels and simply ported over the versions calibrated for movie theatre acoustics, so it is likely that this will more accurately represent the sound of the original mix than the LD.
Out of curiosity, is the LFE low pass supposed to happen before or after the surround attenuation? It wouldn't do to have the bass consistently too quiet throughout the film, of course. ;)
I've heard bad things about the various home video remixes of Jurassic Park, but haven't had any opportunity to study or compare them for myself. In any case, those who have heard it say the theatrical mix is far superior to any of them, but I'd be very interested in hearing more information about this in specific detail. I've never understood this incessant need for movies to be remixed for home video aside from minimal recalibration to adapt them to the acoustics of smaller listening environments. Why shouldn't we be able to hear exactly what the mixers actually heard when they were making the movie? Makes no sense to me.
About the 1997 Star Wars mix: yes, I would indeed be interested in the DTS to use for my 70mm project. I've been limited to using the 384 kbps AC3 from laserdisc, so a higher bitrate version would certainly be a good thing, if it can be managed. I only actually need the LFE and not the main channels, since that's the only part that the SE is actually used for.
I'd personally love to see all 3 DTS mixes if we can get them.....it would be awesome for those of us who still enjoy the SE as a standalone version of the Trilogy. The 5.1 mix is rather nice for sure but this would put the icing on the cake for purist and edit versions of the SE.
Here's to hoping we get them all.
:)
ElDonante said:
This preservation requires that you have the original, store-bought Blu-ray. It also requires that you rip the movie to your hard disk via your preferred method of ripping. You'll only need the movie, not anything else. My vote goes to MakeMKV since it'll work on Linux, Windows, or Mac OS X. Many people fancy AnyDVD HD (which came in very handy when I was frightened that my HD-DVD player would stop working one day and I can confirm that it is a solid piece of ripping software). Once ripped, you'll have a large 20GB+ M2TS video file. Keep it in a memorable place.
Since I love cross-platform tools, the next tool you'll need is tsMuxer. tsMuxer is the tool you'll use to multiplex (mux) your DTSMA file with your M2TS file. If you're using the GUI, simply drag your M2TS and DTSMA files to the "Tracks:" section of tsMuxer's GUI. From here, you'll be able to select your destination type. The choice is ultimately yours, however I chose M2TS because I will not be exporting to physical media. You can choose to output in a Blu-ray or AVCHD compliant file structure for exporting to physical media if you so desire.
OK finally managed to grab this! Thanks to ElDonante and borisanddoris.
Trying to mux in the track using tsMuxer however it keep getting "reading buffer overflow. possible container streams are not synchronized. please verify stream fps."
Can anyone help?
The surround attenuation was only for surround info only since the DTS-6 and DTS-6D processor were to be set at 82dB output instead of the standard 85dB. Subs were set at 91db.
I'd be up for ripping the 97SE, but I wouldn't be able to edit. Does anyone out there have them? I'll have to get around to posting in the other forum unlesssomeone chimes in here.
Not sure what the error was with tsmuxer: worked like a charm for me with my Blu-ray.
I'm also still catching up on PMs. I just got back from a very very wonderful wedding...and the gin was free.
My cousin spared no expense.
“Alright twinkle-toes, what’s your exit strategy?”
Okay, since I don't have a Bluray drive on my pc, could I use my Japan Superbit DVD to sync up this audio and how would I do it properly? I really want to give this DTS soundtrack a spin.
Ok I managed to get it working. Since I do not have a BD drive I had to get the movie from 'elsewhere'. My first video file had messed up FPS setting which is why it was failing with tsmuxer. I found another one which reported it correctly as 23.976fps.
Once question, when I view the codec info in VLC, is it supposed to report the track as DTS-HD MA? It simply says DTS audio on mine. I didn't check box marked 'downconvert to DTS'.
Jetrell Fo said:
Okay, since I don't have a Bluray drive on my pc, could I use my Japan Superbit DVD to sync up this audio and how would I do it properly? I really want to give this DTS soundtrack a spin.
It would require some work, but you'd be able to do it. You wouldn't be left with a Superbit quality video, though. You'd have to do somewhat of an inverse telecine, get that framerate down to 23.976fps, then you'd have to make cuts to the audio or video to make sure they're the same length. Your final project would have to be output as an HD compliant stream to utilize the DTS-HD MA track, as DVD spec doesn't allow for DTS-HD MA.
Alternatively, you could extract the core DTS track from the DTS-HD MA file and use that to create a DVD version with the original theatrical mix.
Another alternative to creating a DVD version retaining the video quality of the Superbit DVD would be to: 1) extract the core DTS track, 2) use eac3to to convert the audio framerate from 23.976 to 29.976, 3) make edits to the audio track to match the video, 4) multiplex the audio track with the Superbit video track.
NeonBible said:
Ok I managed to get it working. Since I do not have a BD drive I had to get the movie from 'elsewhere'. My first video file had messed up FPS setting which is why it was failing with tsmuxer. I found another one which reported it correctly as 23.976fps.
Once question, when I view the codec info in VLC, is it supposed to report the track as DTS-HD MA? It simply says DTS audio on mine. I didn't check box marked 'downconvert to DTS'.
You'd have to have the proper CODECs installed to decode the DTS-HD MA audio, my understanding is if the transport cannot handle DTS-HD MA, it will default to decoding the DTS core (lossy) stream that's contained within the DTS-HD MA track. In that case, you're still hearing the original mix, it's just not lossless.
If anyone notices any discrepancies with sync and the DTS-HD MA track, please update the thread. I was only able to test using 5.1 PCM because I only have access to free and open source tools. I'm confident that the DTS-HD MA track that borisanddoris was able to encode is identical, but I won't be able to test it out until I finish the download and perform the same steps you all are taking ;)
hairy_hen said:
About the 1997 Star Wars mix: yes, I would indeed be interested in the DTS to use for my 70mm project. I've been limited to using the 384 kbps AC3 from laserdisc, so a higher bitrate version would certainly be a good thing, if it can be managed. I only actually need the LFE and not the main channels, since that's the only part that the SE is actually used for.
hairy, I'm not familiar with your 70mm project, but I will surely check it out. I do have one comment, however. The LFE content from the DTS track may not be entirely synchronized with the AC3 track. There may be splices at different time codes which may lead to sway throughout the entire movie that would have to be edited and adjusted by hand. I'd recommend sticking to one mix for the sake of synchronization between channels.
edit:
I'm now familiar with the soul of your project and understand what you're going for... and the work that you put into it :) Since you will be editing by hand, the LFE from the DTS may be worthwhile.