logo Sign In

Prequel total rewrites...? — Page 2

Author
Time
someone suggested in an earlier topic resembling this one that grevious should have actually been darth maul brought back to life as a half-machine thing. That would have been a much better transition to vader in my mind because you have a man that is more machine than man twisted and evil as ben said in jedi.

I agree with not showing anakin becoming vader. that would preserve the surprise in empire. it would also mean that alot of long hours need to go into thinking things through about how to do the secondary apprentice, maybe one given to ben for training during the clone wars.

On a side note, i did suggest in a topic a while back that palpy cloned anakin and that the clone was the dark side user until anakin duels him. Ben would catch the tail end of the duel and think that anakin was killed by his clone, thus preserving the idea of what ben says in ANH. but that was too much of a cop out and un-original. I also believe that anakin's turning needs to happen earlier than episode 3. He should turn at the end of episode 2 by being forced to defend palpy from mace windu. there's more to that statement that I have to work out but take it as you will for now.
"Who's scruffy-lookin'?" - Han Solo
"I wish my lawn was emo so it would cut itself." -sybeman
"You know, putting animals in the microwave is not a good idea. I had to learn that one the hard way." -seanwookie
Author
Time
i'm sorry for dissing the idea of this thread, anyways i have a rewrite for ya that i thought after i had seen AOTC for he 30th time how rots was gonna start. obi wan said anakin would be expelled from the jedi order for his love of padme, i always thought at the beginning of rots that anakin had been expelled for marrying padme, and was living near the lars homestead with padme, when obi wan came and asked anakin to help fight one last battle in the clone wars. wouldve explained more of the relationship between anakin obi wan and owen better as talked about in ANH i think
Author
Time
Originally posted by: Switch Radic
I agree with not showing anakin becoming vader. that would preserve the surprise in empire. it would also mean that alot of long hours need to go into thinking things through about how to do the secondary apprentice, maybe one given to ben for training during the clone wars.

On a side note, i did suggest in a topic a while back that palpy cloned anakin and that the clone was the dark side user until anakin duels him. Ben would catch the tail end of the duel and think that anakin was killed by his clone, thus preserving the idea of what ben says in ANH. but that was too much of a cop out and un-original. I also believe that anakin's turning needs to happen earlier than episode 3. He should turn at the end of episode 2 by being forced to defend palpy from mace windu. there's more to that statement that I have to work out but take it as you will for now.


"... a pupil of mine. 'Til he turned to evil."

I was trying to figure out where the idea of this "secondary apprentice" came from; I saw a couple people talking about it. Personally, I thought it was kind of stupid. But then I remembered that classic Obi-wan line and I see the need for it now.

"...a pupil of mine..."

This makes it sound a lot less "personal" than "apprentice." I think Ben might have had several Jedi pupils. But I guess I've always imagined Ben/Anakin's relationship to be a lot different than it was showed in L'sPT. The lines about fighting along side him in the clone wars, a great friend, and the greatest pilot in the galaxy, along with his being a general in the CW's made me think that (as Swithc Radic more or less was talking about earlier) Ben was in the Galactic Army fighting the clone wars (as a captain, or whathaveyou) when he met Anakin, a pilot in the Galactic Army. I don't see Ben dressed as he is in IV, but more like you'd expect an officer in the GA to be dressed. He'd just happen to have a lightsabre. Anyways, he would meet Anakin and decide that he was such a great pilot because he was using the force and Ben would decide to help him fine tune it a little bit. And, oh, wouldn't it be nice if the war wasn't going on and Anakin could go train properly with Yoda or someone. There are some other Jedi under Kenobi's command, but its more their religion than their job. They're just soldiers in the army. With a little extra oopmh, maybe. Since Dark Jedi (in spades, not just 2-3-4. This gives us the "Braveheart" lightsabre battles) and more specifically the Dark Side is the enemy of the story, maybe we see a few of these guys turn to the dark side. Or not, but we do have to pave the path so that the audience doesn't only assume Anakin when he says that a pupil of his turned to the dark side.

RE: Someone other than Ben killing Anakin: I think it would be a mistake to suggest that Ben still doesn't know at the beggining of ANH that Anakin=Vader. I agree with what has been said: that you can mostly discount what Ben says as things that he thinks Luke needs to hear more than the truth. But anyways, if you end III with the classic Ben VS Anakin, and you think that Ben kills Anakin and that's how you come out of the PT... then when you hear Ben telling Luke about how some other guy (the recently introduced Darth Vader) killed his pops, you think: Now wait a minute, Ben... You're going to have to tell him some time that YOU killed his dad. So when ESB comes around and Vader drops the whole "Obi-wan never told you what happened to your father." It's even more of a shocker than ever.

Xhonzi


Anyways

IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!

"[George Lucas] rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone." -skyjedi2005

"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.

Rewrite the Prequels!

 

Author
Time
I still think it would be a cool extra surprise if it was revealed in Sith that Obi-Wan was actually Luke's real father. Yeah, the OT is awesome and Darth/Luke still resonates, but it's almost like, in those movies, DARTH is Luke's father. The PT Anakin's character is such a whiny douchebag that it's a bummer to think he's Luke's dad. It would almost make more sense since Obi-Wan is 10x more noble of a character. Anakin could just *think* that he's the dad because he was with Padme, but Obi's unrequited love for Padme could've culminated in one night of bliss while Anakin was out doing bad Dark Side stuff. Or something. Crazy, I know, just some interesting speculation that I started thinking about when I saw ROTS.

With Obi-Wan and Padme having more chemistry than Padme and Anakin anyway, and if there was no OT, Obi as the pop would be neat. To me, anyway. Like, if only the audience, Obi-Wan, and Padme knew, but Anakin assumed it was his.
We don't have enough road to get up to 88.
Author
Time
Quick thought, it seems to me that it makes a little more sense for Anakin/Vader to feel betrayed by the Jedi if they threw him out or something. Not being made a master doesn't quite seem like betrayal to me.

If Anakin started to mess with Dark Side things and they told him he had to stop, he says that it is not that bad and he thinks everyone should try it and so they kick him out and ruin his life. And throw a suspicious husband aspect on top of that (Obi-wan and Anakin's yet to be named Wife?) and maybe we now have a candidate for "feeling betrayed by the Jedi."

I don't know, what do you think?

Xhonzi
Related: I thought Vader would personally go around and kill all the Jedi personally. Not some order 66 (anyone read that Twisted Toyfare Theater? It had me rolling!). As I was thinking about this, I thought it might make sense if Vader thinks some of the Jedi really would like to build this Sith Kingdom on Earth (so to speak) and so he went around to all the Jedi inviting them to join.. and they try to kill him Sith Lord that he is, so he kills them right back! And then pretty soon, he stops asking them to join, he just jumps to the end where he kills them. This, of course, would take place between 3-4 since we never see Vader in 3. Maybe some comics or something.

IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!

"[George Lucas] rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone." -skyjedi2005

"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.

Rewrite the Prequels!

 

Author
Time
Well, yes. We see Vader a lot. The suit doesn't make Vader.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

Author
Time
Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
Well, yes. We see Vader a lot. The suit doesn't make Vader.


You don't think so?

I kinda think it does. The clothes make the man!

Xhonzi

IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!

"[George Lucas] rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone." -skyjedi2005

"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.

Rewrite the Prequels!

 

Author
Time
I really don't like to agree with the theory that the cyborg-enhanced Darth Vader was a poor Force user. It just doesn't make any sense to me. First, it confirms the joke that people have been passing around that since the Force is now explained to be a scientific lifeform tied to one's cells, that if one had less body, they have less Force. And that's just stupid. Plus, the first time I heard it was when George was trying to dance around why the lightsaber fight in the first movie was not as intense as those in the other movies. "One's an old man, and the other's mostly machine, not man." Well, then why was he able to kick so much ass in the sequels?

And most importantly, why would the Emperor go to the trouble of keeping him if he now sucked? He never seemed to give a crap about his other apprentices. He told General *groan* Grievous that his new apprentice (Anakin) would be younger and stronger. Well, if his accident caused him to lose that much power (which I really doubt it did), why would Palpatine travel all the way to Mustafar and rebuild him and then keep him around for a generation? I'm sure he could have found someone else he could have trained in the Sith Arts if Darth Vader was now that bad.

But that's simply because he's not so bad. The Force is a spiritual thing, and no amount of lost limbs should detract from using that ability.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

Author
Time
Gaffer,
I couldn't agree more with you're last post! Especially since, after re-watching RotS, Vader crushes the living snot out of everything in the room except Palpatine when he learns of Padme's death.

The ending of RotS, even without thinking that Vader is a Force Wuss as a cyborg, still leaves the question in my mind: What does Palpy need Vader for at this point? It seems that the Sith use a "love 'em and leave 'em" tactic against each other and that as soon as they can't use you anymore, they kill you or let you be killed. You bring up a good example of Dooku. Anyways, Palpy has control of the entire galaxy at this point and leaving Vader around only seems to be asking for a betrayal. Especially since he failed to deliver on the one promise that brought Anakin over to the dark side...

But I've already said that I don't think Vader has any reason to a) not kill Palpatine at that point or b) stay on the dark side at all as it's portrayed in L'sPT.

Xhonzi

IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!

"[George Lucas] rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone." -skyjedi2005

"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.

Rewrite the Prequels!

 

Author
Time
there really isnt an answer to this, but i still think its a cool idea that the sith kill each other off all the time, seems fitting for villains
Author
Time
Originally posted by: twister111
I've actually thought of re-writing the prequels myself. Though, the thing that irks me is that the whole "your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough", "No, I am your father(shock)!", "Leia's your twin sister". Thing could have been so, easily perserved. Example of one scene following:

Anakin wakes up after having a horrible dream.
(insert the actions in episode III up to it was only a dream)
Anakin: *goes and, picks up his lightsaber*
I want him to have this. To become a jedi master.
Padme: Him? How do you know it's a boy?
Anakin: He was in my dream.
Padme: Now, how could that be a bad dream?
Anakin: There was something else... You die in childbirth.
Padme: It was only a dream.
(conversation carry on as in the movie)

The above would also take care of why he only knew of Luke and, not Leia. More would have to be done to perserve the suprise of the Father thing though...


So simple but perfect.

War does not make one great.

Author
Time
I was kinda hoping that Obi-Wan would actually purposefully hide Luke from Padme, but leave Leia with her. Hell, she didn't even seem to know that she was having twins!

From the jump in the prequels, even though Ewan MacGregor was the best Obi-Wan I could have imagined, I hated that Lucas removed the idea that Obi-Wan was impetuous, and also willing to lie for a greater good. Qui-Gon's whole "promise me you'll train him-he is the chosen one" thing totally undercuts the turmoil and failure that drives the OT Obi-Wan.
Author
Time
Originally posted by: xhonzi

The ending of RotS, even without thinking that Vader is a Force Wuss as a cyborg, still leaves the question in my mind: What does Palpy need Vader for at this point? It seems that the Sith use a "love 'em and leave 'em" tactic against each other and that as soon as they can't use you anymore, they kill you or let you be killed. You bring up a good example of Dooku. Anyways, Palpy has control of the entire galaxy at this point and leaving Vader around only seems to be asking for a betrayal. Especially since he failed to deliver on the one promise that brought Anakin over to the dark side...

But I've already said that I don't think Vader has any reason to a) not kill Palpatine at that point or b) stay on the dark side at all as it's portrayed in L'sPT.

Xhonzi


Palpatine has to keep Vader around. He still needs someone to carry on the Sith after he is gone. In ROTS, he brags to Yoda how his apprentice will be more powerful than either of them. If he was purely motivated by keeping himself alive, he could of just found some random weaking jedi to turn sith or leave Anakin to die after the Obi-Wan duel. But he wanted someone who he knew he couldn't beat, because he was the most powerful available. Sure, he wants to maintain power, but he is also loyal to the Sith way and knows that he must have someone to carry on the Sith legacy, even though that meant he would eventually be killed. Maybe he thought he wouldn't be killed by his apprentice like the rest.
I don't buy into the whole "suited Vader is a weakling" argument, though. The way I see it, Vader is still very deadly, but more vunerable because he is dependent on a life-support suit, and one that proves can be shorted out by sith lightning.

Author
Time
I’m seeing a lot of criticism over the prequel trilogy in this thread, but does anyone have any opinion as to what would actually have made it better? Well after finally seeing the final act play out, here’s my take on how the prequel trilogy would have unfolded if I were making the films:

1) I’d of jettisoned The Phantom Menace in its entirety; the first movie adds nothing to the story and is a convoluted, wasteful two hours better spent on a completely different and more interesting story idea. I’m of the mind that I could care less in seeing Anakin’s beginnings as a child, which is the entire point of the first film. Make Anakin a Jedi apprentice with a lot of potential and leave it at that; no talk of virgin births, prophecies, and midichlorians or any of that bull shit as it just doesn’t work and all comes across as silly.

Ultimately, my opinion of The Phantom Menace is that it doesn’t fit in with the rest of films and hampers the prequels with unnecessary exposition. The original trilogy had immediacy to every scene that pushed those films along and moved the overall three film story arc, something the prequels lack with this false start of a film. Deleting it takes care of certain characters and plot points that play no greater part or have little relevence in the other movies.

2) In getting rid of the first film and making a few script changes, I’d of made Attack of the Clones the first film in my prequel trilogy. Anakin is introduced in this first film as a Padawan learner to Obi-Wan Kenobi at basically the same age Luke is introduced in Star Wars and meets Padme for the first time near the beginning instead of being reunited with her. Otherwise, the film plays out close to how it actually does, except for my next point…

3) No marriage at the end of Clones; the whole romance in the second film is much too rushed and ham fisted. The entire Geonosis trip should play out as a playful first date of sorts for Anakin and Padme, not a prelude to nuptials or a declaration of undying love for one another.

4) The second film in my trilogy would take place during a pivotal time in The Clone Wars. With Clones we get to see the beginning of the war and with Revenge of the Sith the end, now we get a film that takes place during the conflict (and before you all yell "But what about the animated The Clone Wars?", I’ll state my opinion that if it didn’t happen in the films, as far as I am concerned, it didn’t happen). Something missing in the prequels is that we keep hearing about how Anakin is this great hero of the war and all, but it’s never seen on film and you never get a great sense of it. There is also room for the relationship between Obi-Wan and Anakin to become a deeper bond as there is a special comradery between soldiers that is born in times of war; you get a sense of it in Sith, but again you never see it develop so it loses some weight. Having a wartime picture also adds the potential to see the dark side in Anakin grow; as it stands his turn from good to evil in Revenge of the Sith feels like it takes about as much time as taking off a white hat and putting on a black one…a bit more build up would have been better.

5) Anakin and Padme would marry at the end of this new second film, having had time between the first two films to actually have a believable, evolving relationship before jumping headfirst into matrimony.

6) Count Dooku would return as the foreground villain in the film with Palpatine in the wings. Another missing component from the original trilogy is one bad guy who is consistent throughout the trilogy, such as Darth Vader. The prequel trilogy has a series of disposable bad guys running around, but no one who is a common thread to the films besides the shadowy and, to be quite honest, boring Darth Sidious. Count Dooku, as the elder statesman, fallen Jedi would fit this role perfectly in accordance to the structure of these films that are set in a more regal time period. And speaking of bad guys, General Grievous could have been this trilogy’s Boba Fett if handled differently (i.e. not as a cowardly joke) and introduced in this new, second film.

7) Revenge of the Sith would unfold pretty much as is, though I would have extended Count Dooku's part and swapped his place with General Grievous in the film. Just like Fett in Jedi, Grievous is there for the beginning but quickly dealt with.

8) I also would have kept the scene deleted from Sith where we see the Rebel Alliance born. It seems like too important of a scene to me to cast aside and would make a nice mirror image to the Rebel planning scene in Jedi.

"Yub Knub" by Warrick Davis
Author
Time
Originally posted by: Number20
Originally posted by: xhonzi

The ending of RotS, even without thinking that Vader is a Force Wuss as a cyborg, still leaves the question in my mind: What does Palpy need Vader for at this point? It seems that the Sith use a "love 'em and leave 'em" tactic against each other and that as soon as they can't use you anymore, they kill you or let you be killed. You bring up a good example of Dooku. Anyways, Palpy has control of the entire galaxy at this point and leaving Vader around only seems to be asking for a betrayal. Especially since he failed to deliver on the one promise that brought Anakin over to the dark side...

But I've already said that I don't think Vader has any reason to a) not kill Palpatine at that point or b) stay on the dark side at all as it's portrayed in L'sPT.

Xhonzi


Palpatine has to keep Vader around. He still needs someone to carry on the Sith after he is gone. In ROTS, he brags to Yoda how his apprentice will be more powerful than either of them. If he was purely motivated by keeping himself alive, he could of just found some random weaking jedi to turn sith or leave Anakin to die after the Obi-Wan duel. But he wanted someone who he knew he couldn't beat, because he was the most powerful available. Sure, he wants to maintain power, but he is also loyal to the Sith way and knows that he must have someone to carry on the Sith legacy, even though that meant he would eventually be killed. Maybe he thought he wouldn't be killed by his apprentice like the rest.
I don't buy into the whole "suited Vader is a weakling" argument, though. The way I see it, Vader is still very deadly, but more vunerable because he is dependent on a life-support suit, and one that proves can be shorted out by sith lightning.


I think this argument is weakened when the ending of RotJ is taken into account. (When Palpy tries to trade Vader in for the newer model Skywalker). If he was so attatched to Vader, he wouldn't try to pull that one on him.

Based on the OT, I never saw Palpy as an ex-Jedi/Sith loyalist. He seemed to be too self-centered for any of that. Certainly he was someone that was abusing the Dark Side of the Force... but I didn't see him have the "religious" devotion that Vader seemed to have.

Xhonzi



IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!

"[George Lucas] rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone." -skyjedi2005

"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.

Rewrite the Prequels!

 

Author
Time
Hey Kev, how's it going man? Good to see you back. Some nice ideas you have there - shame they'll never happen.

War does not make one great.

Author
Time
One little thing I just thought of...

In L'sPT, we're supposed to believe that Jedi don't get married or have kids. I never really cared for this, and my concept of the prequels doesn't include this... (I'm sure that a lot of Jedi would refrain from having family because of the nature of their work (like some members of the military)) Anyways, we're also supposed to understand that ability to use the force is genetic (at least to some degree). The talk of the midiclorians seems to strengthen that argument.

But then, the Jedi don't have kids.

Is anyone else seeing a problem with this? It's like they're purposefully trying to limit their numbers....

Xhonzi

IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!

"[George Lucas] rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone." -skyjedi2005

"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.

Rewrite the Prequels!

 

Author
Time
Yeah, you're right! I never thought of that before! In TPM, as soon as Qui-Gonn ascertains that Anakin might be strong with the Force, he asks Shmi who his father was, which leads me to believe that Qui-Gonn might think he's the son of a great Jedi.

Grr, those stupid midichlorians and stuff continue to mess everything up!

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

Author
Time

booah said:

I still think it would be a cool extra surprise if it was revealed in Sith that Obi-Wan was actually Luke's real father. Yeah, the OT is awesome and Darth/Luke still resonates, but it's almost like, in those movies, DARTH is Luke's father. The PT Anakin's character is such a whiny douchebag that it's a bummer to think he's Luke's dad. It would almost make more sense since Obi-Wan is 10x more noble of a character. Anakin could just *think* that he's the dad because he was with Padme, but Obi's unrequited love for Padme could've culminated in one night of bliss while Anakin was out doing bad Dark Side stuff. Or something. Crazy, I know, just some interesting speculation that I started thinking about when I saw ROTS.

With Obi-Wan and Padme having more chemistry than Padme and Anakin anyway, and if there was no OT, Obi as the pop would be neat. To me, anyway. Like, if only the audience, Obi-Wan, and Padme knew, but Anakin assumed it was his.

 

Evil thought: What if Obi-Wan is Anakin's father, and thus the reason why Obi-Wan felt the need to train him? What if all this time Obi-Wan is the one who pushed Anakin away (by being demanding, etc.) towards the Emperor, who treated Anakin more "kindly?" This would mean a younger Anakin in the prequels, tho... OR alternatively....(even more evil), Obi-Wan is Leia's father? Perhaps after Anakin had gone over to the darkside, Obi-Wan and Padme got together, and she later became pregnant, unbeknownst to Obi-Wan (they are somehow separated, or she dies before he finds out)? This would preserve an older Anakin and their friendship, but build in more surprise about Leia for ROTJ, another movie that needs tweaking.

Author
Time

xhonzi said:

Quick thought, it seems to me that it makes a little more sense for Anakin/Vader to feel betrayed by the Jedi if they threw him out or something. Not being made a master doesn't quite seem like betrayal to me.

If Anakin started to mess with Dark Side things and they told him he had to stop, he says that it is not that bad and he thinks everyone should try it and so they kick him out and ruin his life. And throw a suspicious husband aspect on top of that (Obi-wan and Anakin's yet to be named Wife?) and maybe we now have a candidate for "feeling betrayed by the Jedi."

I don't know, what do you think?

Xhonzi
Related: I thought Vader would personally go around and kill all the Jedi personally. Not some order 66 (anyone read that Twisted Toyfare Theater? It had me rolling!). As I was thinking about this, I thought it might make sense if Vader thinks some of the Jedi really would like to build this Sith Kingdom on Earth (so to speak) and so he went around to all the Jedi inviting them to join.. and they try to kill him Sith Lord that he is, so he kills them right back! And then pretty soon, he stops asking them to join, he just jumps to the end where he kills them. This, of course, would take place between 3-4 since we never see Vader in 3. Maybe some comics or something.

 

I totally think the love triangle would be a fun aspect to the prequels -- I was actually disappointed lucas copped out on luke/leia/han in the original, but you could certainly do it with obi-wan/padme/anakin, and it could be part of what leads to anakin's fall.

Yeah, the order 66 was stupid.  I like the idea of Vader and other newly minted Sith/Dark Jedi hunting down the Jedi as was actually mentioned in IV.  It's about revenge for perceived "wrongs" by the Jedi or even personal vendettas.

Gil

Author
Time

xhonzi said:

One little thing I just thought of...

In L'sPT, we're supposed to believe that Jedi don't get married or have kids. I never really cared for this, and my concept of the prequels doesn't include this... (I'm sure that a lot of Jedi would refrain from having family because of the nature of their work (like some members of the military)) Anyways, we're also supposed to understand that ability to use the force is genetic (at least to some degree). The talk of the midiclorians seems to strengthen that argument.

But then, the Jedi don't have kids.

Is anyone else seeing a problem with this? It's like they're purposefully trying to limit their numbers....

Xhonzi

 

How about that as part of the rift in the Jedi order?  Perhaps there are those who are "ordained" who believe in pure asceticism, others who want to operate outside the order, but who are Jedi -- but marry, have children, or train other Jedi without authorization, and then those who truly want to go over to the dark side...  Could make for some interesting subplots.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

gpili said:

xhonzi said:

One little thing I just thought of...

In L'sPT, we're supposed to believe that Jedi don't get married or have kids. I never really cared for this, and my concept of the prequels doesn't include this... (I'm sure that a lot of Jedi would refrain from having family because of the nature of their work (like some members of the military)) Anyways, we're also supposed to understand that ability to use the force is genetic (at least to some degree). The talk of the midiclorians seems to strengthen that argument.

But then, the Jedi don't have kids.

Is anyone else seeing a problem with this? It's like they're purposefully trying to limit their numbers....

Xhonzi

 

How about that as part of the rift in the Jedi order?  Perhaps there are those who are "ordained" who believe in pure asceticism, others who want to operate outside the order, but who are Jedi -- but marry, have children, or train other Jedi without authorization, and then those who truly want to go over to the dark side...  Could make for some interesting subplots.

 sounds like a  mistake if Jedi cant have kids then how did they ever....

"For a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the......"  I forgot the rest... but they couldnt have lasted  that long...

(uh-oh) Im about to come last in Xhonzi's "How well do you know the script of Star wars" quiz....

You can never go home again, but i guess you can shop there.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

bbzzzzzzzzzzzbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

You can never go home again, but i guess you can shop there.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

I think the thing that strikes me in the prequel films is a general lack of real themes. I mean technically you could see something about the supposed dangers of attachment and perils involved with giving authority more power in a crisis, but both are done so poorly or done with so little on screen evidence that they just feel half-assed. Not to mention that love as a general force (no pun intended) good became such a strong element in the original trilogy that treating it with such suspicion in the prequels feels out of sync. 

I myself have happened upon two critical themes of alternate prequels which I do think will still resonate with the original films: the importance of being connected with all as those around you, and the inherent dangers of losing one's idealism by giving into cynicism and pessimism. 

Both Obi-Wan and Yoda speak of how the Force is an energy field created by all living things, binding the universe together and making it grow. This connectedness is about as critical to the Star Wars mythology as anything. Its something that applies not just to the force, but to people. Luke, Han, and Leia grow closer over the films, the Rebels are named specifically as an Alliance between peoples against tyranny, and Darth Vader himself is the very picture of being cut off and detached from all those around him given his state as more machine than man.This bond, this engagement between regular people is something that means just as much in the prequels.

The growing divide between Anakin and Obi-Wan due to their respective flaws proves to be the downfall of a great friendship. The average Republic citizen's sense of feeling out of touch with the Senate brings about growing unhappiness and a chance for Palpatine to gain power. Jedi and specifically Yoda's seclusion away from the rest of the galaxy proves to be their undoing as they lose their connection with the living and are surprised by the power of Palpatine and the treachery of one of their own. Anakin's severed attachment to his wife and unborn child (due to their apparent death), the family that kept his own dark instincts in check, proves be his tragic push towards the dark side.

Eventually the galaxy's descent into darkness is ended by the heroes being connected to one another. Luke leaves the secluded Tatooine and becomes part of the larger world. The Jedi's (Obi-Wan, Yoda) isolation finally ends with their teachings to Luke, the children of Skywalker (without knowing it) become stronger once reunited, and even Darth Vader moves from being a willing apprentice of Palpatine to a rebellious pupil offering to overthrow him once he discovers his son is alive.

The other major running element is hope and idealism. The Republic (much like America in the era prior to Star Wars' release) is one made of cynical views towards government and in many ways each other. The Jedi don't get heavily involved with Republic affairs, believing they'll simply be part of petty politics. People continually show heavy skepticism towards Jedi knights and the powers they use, neither of which they've really seen. 

Anakin's defining trait by contrast is his overwhelming belief that he as a Jedi can make a galaxy a better place. Its this aspect that makes him among the greatest of the Jedi, precisely because he embodies the spirit of being a guardian of peace and justice better than anyone. And its this fact that eventually makes his fall so tragic. Because Anakin's story is continually one of sacrifice: Leaving his family on Tatooine and likely not being able to come back given Owen's grudge. Not expressing his feelings of doubt and internal struggle to his master because Ben had placed so much faith in him being a great student. Seeing his own wife less than he could because his role in the Clone Wars was so critical. Being able to move on from all the good people he's seen die in this war. 

And he does these things even with all the lonely nights, fallen comrades, and troubled thoughts, as he still believed in the good intentions and ability of the Republic and the Jedi to bring justice to the galaxy. Because he still had faith. But once he believes he's lost his family... its the one sacrifice that was too much. Once they're gone, the Darth Vader in him, the one who had continually said that ruthless measures would get real results and that more power was necessary to bring true justice to the galaxy, he murders Anakin. There will be peace by his hand at any cost, and he will create a world where no innocent people will be destroyed thanks to those starting a war. 

This loss of optimism ultimately affects Yoda and Kenobi as well. Both believe that Luke must destroy Vader, as there's nothing left of Skywalker in him. The Clone Wars and their terrible consequences leave the two unable to see the real power of Anakin's son lies in his love and forgiveness. The "New Hope" Luke represents is ultimately the one that brings back faith and idealism in others; from a scoundrel like Han to eventually his own father. Luke's very existence changes Darth somewhat, though his offer of power to Luke in ESB shows how Vader's still distorting Anakin's sense of justice.

But in ROTJ, Luke's demonstrates love and faith in his father; tossing away his lightsaber rather than destroying him even though it would be so easy and understandable for him to do so. Its that moment in which Darth Vader dies, because his entire belief in callous ruthlessness proves to be wrong. Anakin Skywalker is reborn, and upon feeling genuine belief for the first time in decades, sees Palpatine for what he really is, and saves his son, just as he saved him. 

Hence we come full circle. The loss of idealism by the Jedi is undone by one optimistic young man who still believed in spite of it all. Over three movies Anakin Skywalker lost all hope. And over three movies, thanks to his son, he regained it. 

To me, having these themes doesn't just explain the original trilogy, it enriches it. 

Author
Time
 (Edited)

@CWBorne

I think you are so right on with the points you make here. I think the biggest reason that Star Wars resonates with people and especially for me, are the themes dealing with the importance of family and friends. There is a certain sense of idealism that runs throughout the entire movies which I think compounds the insult that is the prequels. Because the actual making of the prequels themselves were everything contrary -- the words that come to mind are selling out, money and greed -- not idealism, or trying to convey anything meaningful or valuable. Without the sacrifice by Vader for his son, without Luke willing to put himself in grave danger to save his friends and his father, Star Wars wouldn't be Star Wars. I think any good Star Wars movie has to have these themes revolving around the main characters. In Star Wars, this idealism at the individual level personifies and is projected onto the Rebellion vs. the Empire. I think that's why it all works so well. And I believe that's why when I watched the prequels, I could care less about any of the characters and then ultimately could care less about the galaxy. No one stood for anything or had any meaningful relationship with anyone. There were no believable family or friend relationships in any of it, in my view. Nor did I understand anyone's world view, I know there were empty gestures and pretense, but I really can't remember anything precise or meaningful.