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Plot hole in A New Hope (* not really - more of a WUM / troll post)

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You thought the FO rising from the crippled Empire was bad?

[Vader] betrayed and murdered your father

This implies Luke’s father was alive before that. How did we go from this to Vader killing him? Vader killing him is a direct contradiction of the fact that he was alive. Plot hole!

(Not including info from ESB or anything else, just treating ANH as a standalone in this specific post)

 

Mod Edit (6th Sept): the title has had ‘(not really - more of a WUM / troll post)’ added to it for clarity on the purpose of this thread.

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Jesus, dude.

Okay, for one thing, this was the first Star Wars movie. Uncle Owen already told Luke his father was dead, so it was preestablished information. This comparison doesn’t even make sense.

The First Order being cartoonishly overpowered with no explanation is dumb and comes out of nowhere, and was only done for the sake of “rebooting” the story back to the OT status quo without earning that status quo.

I get that it bothers you that there are other people who don’t like the Sequel Trilogy, but the fact that you keep making these threads aggressively trying to defend it just makes you seem insecure and like you can’t accept disagreement. Those movies aren’t worth the trouble. Enjoy them if you like them, but let it go, man.

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It’s not that it bothers me that people criticize the ST. It’s that many arguments are out of bad faith. Movies have defenders.

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If you don’t include ESB then it doesn’t matter. If you do then it’s like a metaphor or a lie. What plot hole? A plot hole would be if Vader still had Anakin’s saber.

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That is not what a plot hole is. A plot hole is something that is internally inconsistent in a story. What Ben told Luke about Vader and his father is internally consistent in A New Hope. It is explained in Return of the Jedi as a certain point of view. Ben was being metaphorical. Anakin and Vader were so different as to be different people. This is something Luke carried forward to ROTJ. It is how Anakin is redeemed. So in the one film there is no issue, in the 2nd film there is doubt because it seems to that what Vader tells Luke contradicts Ben. Who do you believe, the bad guy or your mentor. But Luke knows it to be true. So for TESB is a cliff hanger thread. So Ben explains his reasoning to Luke in ROTJ. Problem solved. No plot hole.

In my experience, most things people claim to be plot holes really aren’t.

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Worth noting also; in 1977 there wasn’t a series of films or yet-to-be-filmed second movie. It was a single story. No plot hole.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Listen, it don’t really matter to me, baby.
You believe what you want to believe.

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You must be new.

And in the time of greatest despair, there shall come a savior, and he shall be known as the Son of the Suns.

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All this means is Kenobi had two students and one of them murdered the other. At this point in time Vader wasn’t Luke Skywalker’s father. Lucas was making Star wars up as he went. The first retcon was Vader being the father. Which he hadn’t planned in advance anymore than Vader being a big deal, he wasn’t he was Tarkin’s henchmen in Star Wars. There was no grand Saga of Darth Vader 1-6. It is hilarious that there are still people who believe Lucas for instance that he always intended Leia to be Luke’s sister.

Lucas doesn’t give a damn about canon. He was always loose and free with it with Star Wars, and even more so with Indiana Jones.

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Okay, another plot hole in ANH. The Empire, clearly a new faction, somehow overthrew a thousand generations old Jedi Order and Republic.

Also, “Before the dark times, before the Empire” is also a plot hole, because the Empire existing now contradicts the fact that they didn’t exist before the dark times and Empire. How did we go from the Empire being nonexistent to even existing in the first place? ANH should’ve given us 46,853 years of exposition explaining how the Empire came into existence and overthrew a thousand generations old Republic and Jedi Order so none of those two plot holes would exist.

See? Those are contradictions.

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Somehow? I hate to break it to you but in real life history Empires and other kinds of power structures come and go all the time.

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"You’re going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.” - Obi-Wan Kenobi

“I presume you are acquainted with the collection of half-truths and hyperbole known as Obi-Wan Kenobi?” - Satine Kryze

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TestingOutTheTest said:

Okay, another plot hole in ANH. The Empire, clearly a new faction, somehow overthrew a thousand generations old Jedi Order and Republic.

Also, “Before the dark times, before the Empire” is also a plot hole, because the Empire existing now contradicts the fact that they didn’t exist before the dark times and Empire. How did we go from the Empire being nonexistent to even existing in the first place? ANH should’ve given us 46,853 years of exposition explaining how the Empire came into existence and overthrew a thousand generations old Republic and Jedi Order so none of those two plot holes would exist.

See? Those are contradictions.

Having an offscreen history is not a plot hole. Having a nonsensical offscreen history (i.e. the events leading up to the ST), however, is best avoided if you want a strong foundation for your story.

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My example is still a contradiction. That’s my point. The Empire rising and defeating the Jedi and Republic contradicts the fact that they lived for a thousand generations. The Empire rising is a contradiction to the “before”.

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TestingOutTheTest said:

That’s like saying the FO rising or Palpatine returning is an off-screen history. And my example is still a contradiction. That’s my point.

Well, yes, it is an offscreen history. There’s nothing inherently bad about that. The problem is when it doesn’t make sense with preestablished story. The original Star Wars was its own story, starting from scratch, so it could establish whatever sort of history it wanted. The ST is beholden to the preestablished lore, and should be logically consistent.

Also, that’s not what a contradiction is. If we were told incompatible information about the Empire and Republic, then yes, that would be a contradiction. Historical change, however, is not a contradiction.

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The ST is beholden to the preestablished lore, and should be logically consistent.

So you’re saying the FO could rise to the way they are?

Also, my examples are incompatible. How did the Empire come into existence when they clearly didn’t exist during the “before”? How can a new faction somehow overthrow a thousand generations old Jedi Knights and Republic?

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TestingOutTheTest said:

The ST is beholden to the preestablished lore, and should be logically consistent.

So you’re saying the FO could rise to the way they are?

Given the vigilance you would expect from the Galaxy against the Empire returning to full power and building another massive planet killer, no, they likely couldn’t.

The Empire was reduced to a small fringe faction. The fact they had the massive amount of resources needed to produce a galaxy-seizing military and Starkiller Base, all without the Republic noticing, stretches the viewer’s belief.

Also, my examples are incompatible. How did the Empire come into existence when they clearly didn’t exist during the “before”? How can a new faction somehow overthrow a thousand generations old Jedi Knights and Republic?

Because that’s how time works. “Before” and “After” will always be different because the only constant in reality is change.

And when Star Wars first came out, we didn’t know the details of this history. But, since Star Wars wasn’t a sequel to anything, we didn’t need to. What we saw in ANH was the universe as it was being introduced to us. So it could be whatever sort of universe the story required.

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Servii said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

The ST is beholden to the preestablished lore, and should be logically consistent.

So you’re saying the FO could rise to the way they are?

Given the vigilance you would expect from the Galaxy against the Empire returning to full power and building another massive planet killer, no, they likely couldn’t.

They literally hid from the galaxy. It’s a massive place. The fact that they weren’t fully destroyed by the Republic & Rebels implies they went into hiding.

The Empire was reduced to a small fringe faction. The fact they had the massive amount of resources needed to produce a galaxy-seizing military and Starkiller Base, all without the Republic noticing, stretches the viewer’s belief.

Again, it’s a massive galaxy. It’s not like the Republic rules all of it. Same with the Empire in the OT, we saw Tatooine, Endor, Dagobah, Hoth, Yavin, Alderaan and Bespin. Also, they had an entire fucking planet to stripmine for resources. Why do you think the trench was there?

Also, my examples are incompatible. How did the Empire come into existence when they clearly didn’t exist during the “before”? How can a new faction somehow overthrow a thousand generations old Jedi Knights and Republic?

Because that’s how time works. “Before” and “After” will always be different because the only constant in reality is change.

So you’re saying that, for example, if a car in a desert was always unable to fly and there’s no mechanics or tech support guys, and in the next minute it’s suddenly able to fly… still in a desert with no sense of civilization nearby, that isn’t a plot hole? That it’s a “before, then after”?

And when Star Wars first came out, we didn’t know the details of this history. But, since Star Wars wasn’t a sequel to anything, we didn’t need to. What we saw in ANH was the universe as it was being introduced to us. So it could be whatever sort of universe the story required.

That’s like saying plot holes within any individual standalone movie itself can be justified as it being a NeW uNiVeRsE. Like with the car example. And again… the Empire, a new faction, somehow being able to overthrow two factions THAT ARE A THOUSAND GENERATONS OLD. Is. A. Contradiction.

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You know what? It’s a beautiful day outside. You’re probably trolling. I’m not doing this with you and wasting my time. I’m gonna go for a hike, instead.

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“For over a thousand generations, the Jedi knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the old Republic… before the dark times… before the empire.”

Nothing in the prequels contradicts this line from the originals.

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How am I trolling? I’m not provoking you or anything, I’m proving my point. That continuity doesn’t matter. Or at least your double standards should be consistent. Be careful with film criticism, because it can be applied to anything, and I mean anything.

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Rodney-2187 said:

“For over a thousand generations, the Jedi knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the old Republic… before the dark times… before the empire.”

Nothing in the prequels contradicts this line from the originals.

I never referred to the prequels, I referred to the OT as a standalone.

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It’s like talking to the Cheshire cat. You’re such a con artist, Test, stop arguing like a teenage contrarian and give your opinions on the movies, drop this obsessive hunt for strawmen gotcha moments and face an authentic conversation.

“The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.” - DV

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I am engaging in conversations. I’m proving them wrong, they’re trying to prove me wrong, everyone tries to prove each other wrong. I’ve had a history with /r/saltierthancrait (former hater here!) and /r/saltierthankrayt. I’m just playing my part. And I’m stern so I can emphasize my point.

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TestingOutTheTest said:
I’m just playing my part.

Soon to be re-banned member?

Tell you what guys I will make a deal with you, let’s not respond to these insane threads any more. Starting here.