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PAL vs NTSC laserdiscs

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hi all, I have the definitive collection LD's (with the 7 seconds on ESB ) and have been planning on making my own DVDs from them, I have the Gonzo discs and they're ok but two things prevent me from playing them too much; they look out of focus and they have burnt-in 3:2 pulldown which is no good for playing on my projector connected to my PC as 3:2 pulldown kills smooth motion (I hate 3:2).
When I make my set I'll be manually undoing the 3:2 pulldown, not frame by frame but finding the start/stop points & undo settings throughout the video, processing each part individually and then joining them back together after undoing the pulldown, I've done this on a couple of other LDs successfully (Criterion Blade Runner being one of them).

I've noticed someone here's making their own set from the PAL LDs and was wondering if they suffer the same jaggies (?) as the definitive LDs, it seems as though when they mastered the LDs they removed every other line to shrink the image down to letterbox meaning any sharp edge nearly horizontal is broken severly, as can be seen in these 2 unaltered captures:

http://www.haku.co.uk/pics/StarWarsLDjaggy1.jpg

http://www.haku.co.uk/pics/StarWarsLDjaggy2.jpg

So do the widescreen PAL LDs suffer the same 'curse'? I'd throw some money at getting them if they don't.


This is what I've been getting out of my definitive LD's, still on the test run phase, testing filters and settings to find the one I'm most happy with, I'm pretty pleased with these despite taking 1.4fps to clean up the video on a 2.4ghz P4:

http://www.haku.co.uk/pics/StarWarsLDtest1.jpg

http://www.haku.co.uk/pics/StarWarsLDtest2.jpg

http://www.haku.co.uk/pics/StarWarsLDtest3.jpg

http://www.haku.co.uk/pics/StarWarsLDtest4.jpg

http://www.haku.co.uk/pics/StarWarsLDtest5.jpg

http://www.haku.co.uk/pics/StarWarsLDtest6.jpg
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***Citizen's NTSC DVD/PAL DVD/XviD Info and Feedback Thread***
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Originally posted by: Citizen
I have the Gonzo discs and they're ok but two things prevent me from playing them too much; they look out of focus and they have burnt-in 3:2 pulldown
Are you sure the discs you have are Dr_Gonzo's ?
In this thread Dr_Gonzo said he IVTC'ed his discs. I'm still learning, but I thought IVTC'ing removed 3:2 pulldown ?
I'll bet russs15 can help identify the discs you've got, if there's any uncertainty.

Regardless, best of luck with your own capture !

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

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Actually I think you're right, I thought these were the Dr_Gonzo discss but apparently not, I got them off Suprnova before it went belly up.
Each one has the deathstar THX intro, anamorphic NTSC with 3:2 pulldown burnt-in, 2 audio tracks - the 2nd being the commentary from the DC discs with player generated subtitles announcing who's actually commentating, chapter pages and production notes pages.
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***Citizen's NTSC DVD/PAL DVD/XviD Info and Feedback Thread***
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Nice captures!

"it seems as though when they mastered the LDs they removed every other line to shrink the image down to letterbox meaning any sharp edge nearly horizontal is broken severly, as can be seen in these 2 unaltered captures:"

This is the curse of NTSC - interlacing. You are only seeing half the lines of resolution in any given frame, which is why a lot of people like to try deinterlace (which is a bad idea.) PAL does not suffer from this, because it is progressive (all scan lines shown in each frame.)

As to IVTCing, VirtualDub will help you find the right cadence, which should carry through to the end of most of the discs. I don't recall if any of the discs have a cadence break prior to the end, but it's been a long time since I captured and processed the Def. Col. set.

"Each one has the deathstar THX intro"

Which intro is this???

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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"Nice captures!"

Thanks, previously I'd been trying a huge combination of filters to try and get the results I wanted, till I found a single VirtualDub noise filter that does most of the work. I'm using a Canopus ADVC-100 capturing from a Pioneer CLD-D515, I'd like a better LD player but couldn't justify spending a lot more on something I won't use that much.

I undid the 3:2 pulldown before making the jaggy example stills (they're only cropped) so it's not the interlacing that's at fault but whoever mastered the LDs, the 2.35:1 letterbox Blade Runner LD doesn't suffer from the same jagged/broken horizontal lines as the definitive LDs.

Does anyone have some unedited captures of the PAL SW LDs? specifically where there are some almost-horizontal lines


"Each one has the deathstar THX intro"

"Which intro is this???"

It's when the disc starts, appears to be CGI generated, a sequence where the x-wings fly down to the death star to blow it up by firing into the exhaust port, but when they pull away you see it's the THX logo not the deathstar they blow up.
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***Citizen's NTSC DVD/PAL DVD/XviD Info and Feedback Thread***
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I've never seen that intro!

"I undid the 3:2 pulldown before making the jaggy example stills (they're only cropped) so it's not the interlacing that's at fault "

IVTC is not the same as deinterlacing. IVTC simply takes three frames and converts them back to the original two. As such, it only affects framerate, not resolution. Don't worry, as this is a very common misconception.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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I've now deleted the un-edited raw capture, but this a screengrab from my DVD:

http://img284.echo.cx/img284/333/untitled6eg.jpg

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Holy crap! that's great! I'm going to have to get that LD set (anyone selling? )

When they were authoring the definitive collection didn't someone even notice how badly the picture was destroyed by the removal of lines? I was a bit gutted to find the picture is like it is, but comparing it to the PAL set they really screwed things up and now I'm even more gutted I shelled out on the definitive collection instead of getting the French PAL set.
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***Citizen's NTSC DVD/PAL DVD/XviD Info and Feedback Thread***
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"didn't someone even notice how badly the picture was destroyed by the removal of lines?"

NTSC required this. It would have been unplayable otherwise.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Could the effect be due to the DV codec being used in your capture hardware maybe? I doubt that the "removing of lines" theory is correct.

Note that my raw capture was "upsampled" to make an anamorphic DVD, so what you see in that image has been vertically stretched from the original - this might have "masked" any jaggies that were present.

The DVDs that were on Suprnova were Dr Gonzo's, however, it is unclear whether they were identical to his originals that were posted to Usenet or if they had been tampered with in any way before torrenting.

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Here is a raw capture from a Canopus ADVC 300 with the PAL discs

http://home.clara.net/superfly74/screenshot_lines.png






I am pretty sure there is a thread here that discusses the problems of the DV codecs when used with NTSC.

Moth3r Would it be possible to get a copy of your DVD?
Egon "Don't Cross the streams it would be very bad"

Peter "i'm fuzzy on the whole good/bad thing"

Egon "lmagine the 97 Star Wars Special Editions"
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[OT]norinradd, I tried to respond to your PM but it won't let me because my pm box is full. Bear with me while I clear out the stuff I don't need.[/OT]

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Ok, I thought I had a problem this end
Egon "Don't Cross the streams it would be very bad"

Peter "i'm fuzzy on the whole good/bad thing"

Egon "lmagine the 97 Star Wars Special Editions"
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Originally posted by: MeBeJedi"didn't someone even notice how badly the picture was destroyed by the removal of lines?"

NTSC required this. It would have been unplayable otherwise.


At the risk of, and not wishing to sound like an ignorant 3 year old, why?

The Blade Runner LD I captured was in every technical way identical to the DC LDs; NTSC / 2.35:1 letterbox / CAV and showed no signs of missing lines, jagged horizontal lines or what not. Here's an unedited capture from the BR LD (only upped the gamma a little), using exactly the same hardware & software as for the DC LDs, notice the detail on the blue PAN-AM sign and the billboard:

http://www.haku.co.uk/pics/BladeRunnerTestPic.jpg


The DVDs I got off suprnova exhibit the same 'jaggies' on near horizontal sharp edges and they were off the definitive LDs too so I'm sure the low picture quality was a result of poor LD mastering.


Now I don't know wether to carry on and make my set from my defintive LDs or try and get the French LDs then dump the definitive LDs back on eBay, recouping my £80, because those PAL captures look superb and I'm not happy with the definitive LD quality.
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***Citizen's NTSC DVD/PAL DVD/XviD Info and Feedback Thread***
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"At the risk of, and not wishing to sound like an ignorant 3 year old, why?"

It's a form of "analog" compression. At the time that TV was invented, it simply wasn't possible to transmit all of the scan lines at once, so they cut the number in half. NTSC is a quick succession of alternating frames of even- and odd-numbered lines. If you look up close at an older large screen television, you will "see" the black lines (or the ghost images of such.)

HDTV has a similar problem. The highest spec calls for 1080p (progressive), but at this point in time, we are only capable of broadcasting 1080i (interlaced). Oddly enough, "interlaced" material is actually more of a bandwidth hog with digital transmissions than it is with analog. I won't get into the details unless you really want to know.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Sorry, crossed wires, I didn't question interlacing as I know how to deal with editing/creating/removing it (also why NTSC is an annoying 29.97/59.94fps and not a round 30/60), I meant why did they master the definitive collection LDs in such a way as to lose half of the picture quality.
It's almost as if they took an image that was 2x the height and instead of smoothly halving the height they just removed every other line.
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***Citizen's NTSC DVD/PAL DVD/XviD Info and Feedback Thread***
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LOL....my bad.

Well, for one thing, I don't think they did any more to it in that respect than was done for the Blade Runner LD, or any other LD (except for the few anamorphic LDs. )

Secondly, the Def. Col. was overprocessed with noise reduction, so that could be doing it as well. If I get around to it (I haven't forgotten about you, ReverendBeastly!), I will try to compare them.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Here is the link if there is any uncertainty as to which version you currently have.

This simple listing should be expanded very soon once The Dark One moves on from his "dressing up" phase................

4 - 5 - 3 - 1 - 6 - 2

Discuss…

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I have the Dr_Gonzo discs (without the 4th disc), sorry my bad on the IVTC, they do have the 3:2 pulldown removed, it doesn't seem smooth playback on my PC despite being 2.4ghz.

MeBeJedi, I noticed they (over)used temporal smoothing on the definitive ANH discs, really shows up when R2-D2 is wandering around and caught by the sand people.
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***Citizen's NTSC DVD/PAL DVD/XviD Info and Feedback Thread***
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ANH is definitely the worst of the 3 transfers. You should give the Faces set a try. They're my personal favorite.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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I wasn't aware of that one, THIS must be it.

I'd guess original not SE, looks like the European equivalent to the DC set?

:: EDIT - No, actually, the artwork on THIS auction is similar to the earlier PDO UK pressings, so it's likely to be the same transfer - very poor quality by all accounts.

Just thougt I'd mention if you didn't pick it up from elsewhere, the French PAL ANH - both the English language boxed set and the individual "version francais" discs - have a defect at side 1/2 flip, where a screen wipe is missing and the next shot is only half-resolution.

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Its the Original but it is not the THX version which is a much better transfer, you either want the THX French Soundtrack, or the THX English Soundtrack-French Subtitles (Very Rare), I'm not sure about the German THX discs.

Yep Moth3r's correct thats the one, does anyone have the german discs, do the have the missing frames?
Egon "Don't Cross the streams it would be very bad"

Peter "i'm fuzzy on the whole good/bad thing"

Egon "lmagine the 97 Star Wars Special Editions"
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Thanks both for the heads up, that eBay auction was the one I was found so looked it up on lddb.

If I get a set with foreign audio it isn't a problem as I can use the audio from my definitive discs, I've done this with a German DVD release of The Wizard which has a dubbed German soundtrack, I captured my VHS, synched up the video stream so all the frame times match then save the audio and use that to remaster the DVD. Worked a charm.

Moth3r, I'd seen you mention the missing screenwipe on one of your threads, how did you eventually get round it, replace it or leave it as is?
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I didn't attempt to replace it in the end, I didn't think it was too much of a distraction. But I would like to eventually get the German discs and put these frames back in.

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