Our Fault, Not George's?

Most of us have a collection of some sort of entertainment medium. TV series on DVD, audiobooks, regular books, video games, movies, CDs, etc. Some of those artists or fictional worlds touch us more than others. I guess the OT touches most of us more than other series of movies or any other medium. I could be wrong, but to be sure we all feel pretty strongly about the OT - or at least we did at one time.

There was a sixteen-year gap between SW-branded movies. During that time, we had a substantial EU output which, while it sometimes left us wanting more, seemed on the whole to be of much greater quality (in lesser quantity) than the second, post-1999 EU output. And that first EU movement, I believe, strongly entertained the bulk of the old fans.

I would argue that by the time The Phantom Menace rolled around, Lucas was in no position to make a good film. By then, us OT fans had enjoyed the SW experience to the point where it was personal. And the only way to satisfy already sated fans was to make sure that the new films never strayed from our collective perception of what a SW film was at its essence. Lucas was at a great disadvantage going into the PT - he hadn't been as ensconced in the SW universe as we were, IMO. Furthermore, it's hard to figure out what large groups of people are thinking.

I'm bolding and underlining the next sentence of this paragraph to be as clear as I can: I am not trying to excuse George Lucas' woefully embarrassing return to the world of SW. Lucas probably couldn't have reached us OT fans with the PT, but his haphazard attempt missed the mark so badly, it's as though he wanted to piss us off. (With the release of the GOUT, he was open about it) Lucas seemed to think that an easy-to-follow story plus action and explosions plus superficial ties to SW (lightsabers, Jedi, various alien species, returning characters) equals a full return to the glory days of SW. Sadly, the endless stream of cash the movies made probably convinced him he nailed it.

But this isn't about Lucas. I'm exploring the possibility that maybe, with our strong and personal love for the OT having been in place for sixteen years, maybe no one could have made the PT great. Now, if Lucas had chosen to go forward in time, rather than backward, perhaps it might have worked. Maybe. Your thoughts?

I strongly disagree that i am at fault in any way for star wars being destroyed, Lucas did it and is still doing it.

Lucas made it personal when he crapped all over the originals then disavowed their existence, then releases a laserdisc master to dvd in 2006 which in no way in any way was acceptable.

I don't give a crap about the special editions and the prequels.  My dissatisfaction and bitterness as a fan comes from the originals not being given a restoration and DVD/Blu Ray release.

The prequels and special editions can rot for all i care, and i still love a lot of the EU a great deal when authors who can actually write compelling stories sometimes, unlike a certain bearded man in a flannel shirt.  Which is strange because the original trilogy was a great story.

It isn't success that causes people to start producing crap. I admit that people will sell out. But we are not to blame. If I had a huge following for something I did I would try my best to keep those people happy.

as SkyJedi stated George basically just swept what in his mind is just a workprint under the rug. The only evidence of the original trilogy as it was from 77-83 is our minds and the shitty VHSs and Laserdisc copies we have sitting on our shelves next to movies that suck and have actually been remastered and released in high definition. You can't go out and buy the original trilogy in atleast 720p but you can go out and buy Gone With The Wind restored to beautiful quality on blu ray.

I am starting to feel bad for Lucas bashing because A. I really don't like talking about people B. It isn't getting anything done because my voice is silent. We ask for the Original Unaltered Trilogy on DVD we get a lossy-Laserdisc transfer that plays in our DVD players. When I think of Star Wars, I think of being 5 years old in my parents' basement during weekends watching them on VHS. I remember how fun it was to relax on the carpet in front of an old 26'' Zenith floor model television and thinking that those were the best films of all time. Why now when I think of Star Wars I think that I am being defecated on. When I think of Blade Runner I think wow Ridley Scott loves his fans. But George really doesn't seem to care. I will never ever get to see Star Wars like I originally did. I can type all night about this but really I am just one of the many that miss Star Wars. At least I can stand tall and say I have seen Star Wars. The things people under 16 have seen are just impostors. All I want is to see Star Wars as Star Wars instead of Star Wars Episode 4 A New Hope. I guess we are all just unimportant to George Lucas. There isn't even enough of us to boycott all things Lucasfilm. The petition worked but really didn't work to our advantage.

lucas quote " I think it's the director's prerogative, not the studio's to go back and reinvent a movie."

I bolded and inderlined the important part.

See this is pretty much the proof that during the making of the special edition he set out to reboot the universe from scratch even without reshooting the original trilogy.

Star Wars 1977 did not need to be reinvented it was a masterpiece and a near perfect movie, the genius editing and score made do with what little budget lucas had at the time to tell a narrative that was free of cynicism and was a purely joyful experience to watch, and just a good amount of fun.

Why change a film that everyone loved for generations, well anybody but Lucas that is.

How nuts is it to make a film that changed cinema, brought back fun to the movies and think it is shit.  It is crazy to hate something that you yourself made that resonated with generations of the young and old.  Was star wars just a happy mistake for its fans and an unhappy moment in time for george?

He had every right to recompose his universe and characters, it was even somewhat interesting hearing how lucas was going to mold and shape all six films into a grand cohesive saga, the idea and the execution of said idea are different though because it was rendered poorly, his metaphor or story was confusingly put on film and video and made less sense than it did as an idea.

I have no problems as long as Lucas who claims he champions historical film preservation has the originals preserved for all time, as he said as an artifact of how it was but not how he wanted it.

I have always championed Lucas as a genius and stood up for him when people have claimed he was a dumb moron and hack, i still think he is a once in a generation genius like Thomas Eddison.

He has nothing to really be ashamed of he made his films on his own terms and he is happy with the finished product, great for him, bad for the fans.

skyjedi2005 said:

lucas quote " I think it's the director's prerogative, not the studio's to go back and reinvent a movie."

I bolded and inderlined the important part.

See this is pretty much the proof that during the making of the special edition he set out to reboot the universe from scratch even without reshooting the original trilogy.

Star Wars 1977 did not need to be reinvented it was a masterpiece and a near perfect movie, the genius editing and score made do with what little budget lucas had at the time to tell a narrative that was free of cynicism and was a purely joyful experience to watch, and just a good amount of fun.

Why change a film that everyone loved for generations, well anybody but Lucas that is.

How nuts is it to make a film that changed cinema, brought back fun to the movies and think it is shit.  It is crazy to hate something that you yourself made that resonated with generations of the young and old.  Was star wars just a happy mistake for its fans and an unhappy moment in time for george?

I can't see why he is like that. If I had created something like Star Wars I would be sitting with a fat smile on face and my arms crossed. I would be so proud of myself. Whenever I do something that people love it gives me a high unlike anything. As a musician and an artist I get tickled to death when somebody says wow that's good. If I created something like that I would try my damnedest to preserve it. And to keep it alive for generations to generations. If I created Star Wars I would transmit it to space and say that it actually happened LOL watch out ET. I would want my children to enjoy it the way I enjoyed it. A good film will last forever regardless of if it looks dated or not. Star Wars has this lasting effect. After I watch Star Wars I wanna watch it again and again. I just wish it was treated as well as other timeless classics.

It is interesting that fans feel as sense of ownership of the star wars mythos, in the same way star trek fans feel a sense of ownership over roddenberry's creation.

To Create something like creates a modern mythology and has that much of a social effect on society is absolutely phenomenal, and has a lasting effect.  Wars like Trek is not a passing fad, they both in their own way speak to people.

Obviously Lucas legally owns star wars 100% and could tell the fans to fuck off if he wanted, hell sometimes artists have to do that as much as they need outside input they also need to not have their vision muddied.

Some of the problems star wars has are due to pandering to some of the fans.  The whole Jango Fett/Boba Fett thing for instance, fans wanted to see mandalorians in the films.

Just like fans wanted a fourth Indiana Jones film then after the fact said they perfered it would have ended with three. Fans that initially wanted a 9 film star wars saga say they wish star wars had died in 1983 with what dignity it had left.

You can't please everyone at once.  Some fans love all six films equally even return of the jedi a much bashed film, as the fan bashing on that is almost as bad as the phantom menace.

VFP,

I think I get what you mean.  I opened a thread a month or two ago with a similar idea.  Let's see... here it is! http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Prequel-Approval-Ratings-Speculation/topic/10641/

Like you said, after 16 years and lots of EU, there was no way to satisfy all Star Wars fans.  Realizing this is somewhat frustrating... but I think it can also be freeing.  The expression "Well, you can't please all of the people all of the time..." is meant to make you feel better about doing something that some people don't like.  Or, in Lucas's case in the mid 90s, setting out to make something that can't, regardless of your efforts, please everyone.  When faced with the reality you can't please everyone, you have to decide whom you will please.  I suppose poor filmmakers try to please 2 groups:

1) Themselves.

2) Whatever group that will make them the most money, as long as it doesn't extermely compromise group #1.

Lucas had the money to do whatever he wanted... but from a financial perspective, it's hard to say that a "good" prequel trilogy would have made Lucas any more money than the buckets of gold that he's made off of the saga since 1999.

No, I don't think it's our fault.  As I speculated in my post, I think that had the prequels been done well, 80% of us would have been fully satisfied.  As it is, I guess 40% of are... so he really missed the boat there.  The movies ARE terrible.  They are a lodestone around the neck of everything Star Wars.

The sad thing is I think I know myself well enough to think I'd probably be in that cranky 20% that wouldn't have been happy with anything.  There are parts of the EU that I really like- there are a couple things that I really really like, maybe even love.  But I'm a fairly critical fan, and I think I would have been folding my arms and spitting no matter what.  :(

Vaderisnothayden said:

And back in the old days I wanted new Star Wars films like most people. I didn't realize Lucas was going to (as I see it) go out of his way to make them bad movies. In retrospect I realize I should have been happy with just 3, but who knew? After the awfulnes of the SE we should have seen the writing on the wall, but before that?

As for ROTJ bashing, that will never fail to bewilder me. ROTJ is a great movie, the equal of the other two, and it has some of the best stuff in the trilogy.

 Some of the best of the trilogy and also some of the worst.  I don't need to go into detail here, but if the SE's were the writing on the wall, RotJ was George walking up to the wall, checking it for writability and considering just what he might put on it.

I am an RotJ fan.  On the whole, I like it and I think it's one of the few series ending movies that actually works for me.  That is to say, I think it delivers on the main "promises" made by the preceding movies.  The Luke/Vader scenes at the end are near perfect, in my opinion.  The space battle at the end has yet to be matched or surpassed in terms of complexity and excitement.

HOWEVER (and I know there are whole threads dedicated to it, so I won't go into much detail):

The burping?  The Tarzan yell? 

The Ewok's cuteness factor and makretability seemed to be weighed higher than their believability or story relevance.

The aliens in Jabba's place seem to be "cuter" than their Cantina equivalents.

And most importantly, Han and Leia seem to be less three dimensional than their ESB selves.  This can be blamed on the actors (Ford, primarily) but I think it was a sign of the story and style over characters problem that Lucas seemed to be developing.

I guess these are top of the list to me.  Like I said, I actually like RotJ a lot.  I have a hard time chosing between it and ANH for 2nd best of the trilogy.  But I still think it bears the signs that Lucas was starting to make movies for his 3 year old daughter as opposed to his 18 year old self.

neebis said:

Personally, I think the number one problem with the prequels is that Lucas didn't hand over the project to a new generation of writers and directors. There were so many talented up-and-coming names mentioned in the 90s that would undoubtedly have done something infinitely better than what we got.

Whenever I think about the prequels, I think about all the super-talented and creative artists and technicians who grew on the Star Wars films and studied and worked their whole lives to grow up and live the dream working at ILM and Lucasfilm on producing new Star Wars films. Then they all ended up being trapped having to work on garbage. I wonder how many of them were working on the films and thinking to themselves, "This stuff is horrible," but  they couldn't do anything about it because they knew they wouldn't be able to get through to George anyway and they didn't want to rock the boat for fear of losing their jobs. I just wish he had handed over the reins to the next generation of filmmakers, who were the equivalent of who he was in '75.

I know the magic of the original series could never be recaptured, but the prequels (or whatever new films) still could have been something special. Unfortunately, what they ended up with was a gaping black hole of wasted opportunity.

It was basically a first draft of a screenplay in my eyes. George whipped together a screenplay and didn't even bother to listen to the paper clip. I feel the films could have been something. The Phantom Menace had just a hint of that. But really it is sad to say that the Star Wars film that ended the fans love ended up being the best of the 3. Really I think the star wars saga works better if you change episode 4,5,and 6 to episode 1,2, and 3 you no longer have the problem. That is why I am waiting for ChainsawAsh's edits because to me they will be the Star Wars saga. If Ady is able to make the prequels better I will probably tear up and cheer. I am not saying I am as good as Ady but I have a notebook full of possible prequel changes some impossible and I just can't get them to work. Fan Editing could save them but I can't. I have a love for Star Wars and I have been a fan since way before special editions or prequels and I can't find a single way to save them. My best idea turns them into an un-soggy shit sandwhich. I guess the best thing to do is what many of the older members like anchorhead do and just forget they even exist. To me and to many others the last Star Wars movie was ROTJ. I tried to defend them. But I cannot any longer.