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"Original Vision"

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Lucas has for a while now been harping on the prequels and the SE as his original vision for Star Wars. It has long since passed into lore that lucas was forced to make changes to the first Star Wars (by various people, likely the studio or producer Gary Kurtz) to change the tone to make it less goofy, less kiddie to remove lame jokes, etc. Stuff found in Star Wars movies from ROTJ to the SE to the Prequels, since at that point, Lucas had enough power to do what he wanted.

I put forward that if he had made the original Star Wars the way he wanted, it would have been the only movie made. The lame jokes and more juvenile tone would have kept it from becoming the block buster it was. It would have done somewhat well, but not enough to warrant a sequel and if one was made anyway, it would have performed below expectations. But it's doubtful if one would have been made. So then Star Wars would have passed into history as a great movie... for children under 6.

I wish he would rethink his whole "original vision" stance because if he had his way back in 1977, he never would have again. Period.
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I happen to think that part of it is because his own tastes were less "juvenile" when he was a young man and only started to shift when he became a parent.

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My mother recounted how after I was born, her friends decided she needed to get her out of the house because the whole housewife/mother thing was eating her brain away. So they were all in a car and they drove past a field where cows were grazing. Mom points to them and shouts "SEE! COWS!" and then realised there was no one in the car to say that to.
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Originally posted by: jack Spencer Jr My mother recounted how after I was born, her friends decided she needed to get her out of the house because the whole housewife/mother thing was eating her brain away. So they were all in a car and they drove past a field where cows were grazing. Mom points to them and shouts "SEE! COWS!" and then realised there was no one in the car to say that to.


Yes I’ve done some of that as a parent and I know my wife has as well. A professional doesn’t let that impact their job. I don’t look at my co-workers and say, “LOOK CAT-5 CABLE.” In my last job (Army) shit like that would’ve expedited my exit from this mortal coil.

George should’ve maintained a degree of professionalism, remembered the tone of the first two movies and left the juvenile humor out of ROTJ and the PT. If he was going to take things down the juvenile path he certainly should’ve held ROTS to a PG rating. Jar Jar, when considered in light of the PG-13 rating of ROTS only serves as proof that George forgot how to write. The most fundamental rule of writing, or any art for that matter, is to remember your audience.


"Look, going good against bashers/gushers is one thing. Going good against the living? That's something else."
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“I also thought George could be turned back to the good side. It couldn't be done. He is more CGI now than story. Twisted and evil.”
- Darth-Adroit
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I think I did the, "Look, cows!" thing at Ft. Hood. In my defense, they were grazing around a cemetery in the middle of nowhere, and it was a singularly bizarre tableau. At least to us city folk.

And I agree on the shift in Lucas's tastes. Though I wonder if it was due to him becoming a parent, or simply realizing the increased merchandising potential with kids' movies.
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Actually, we do have proof positive that the more juvenile tone would have sank the first Star Wars. It's Lucas's second attempt at a multi-part epic story: Willow. Willow was meant to be a prelude to another trilogy a la Hoobbit/Lord of the Rings. However, Willow failed to perform well enough at the box office to warrant the sequels, which were eventually made into novels. I've spent a good deal of time wondering why I don't like Willow. The reason is that the lame attempts at humor just didn't work for me. Sure there were some good attempts at humor, but there was also bad one. I think the movie lost me when Val Kilmer was rolling down a snow covered hill and got rolled up into a giant snowball. Why a stupid cartoon gag was used in an action/adventure/fantasy, I have no idea. But Willow is what Star Wars would have been if George had his way with it. And in spite of the 'see cows' story above, I think that is what he was after. There have ben enough behind the scenes rumors to make me believe that the tone of Willow or the prequels/SE was what Lucas wanted.
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Yeah, Gary Kurtz made Episode IV, and if Lucas had made it, it would have most likely been silly and simplistic, like that infantile comedy of his, "THX 1138"...

Oh, dear. This reminds of that "Lucas is reediting Star Wars because of his wife" lunacy posted on Some Other Site a while ago...
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Ha Ha. you're a card.Know what card? That How to Play Poker card they put in the deck that you have to throw away. Yeah, man. Go you. Go.... teach someone how to play poker.
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Originally posted by: Darth-Adroit

...... serves as proof that George forgot how to write. The most fundamental rule of writing, or any art for that matter, is to remember your audience.


Exactly. George couldn't ever decide what his audience was, so he just wrote what felt good and was done with it. TPM was a huge mess because we had Jar-Jar's antics on one side, and Qui Gon and Obi-Wan's chats and duels on the other side. AOTC felt like he was catering to women who like chick flicks for most of it, and then near the end switched to action loving eight year olds. And ROTS was for action loving kids for much of it....for people who like chick flicks...and for whoever likes Jar-Jar he gave a nod to.

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I honestly think Lucas changed once he was the ruler of Skywalker Ranch, and everything went from his vision to $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. If you look at THX-1138, American Grafitti, Star Wars, Raiders of the Lost Ark and ESB which he didn't direct, they were all films where he took a chance, and didn't worry about putting little kiddies in the theaters to pad the gross box office.

ROTJ was where it all started, and that was his first full movie as CEO, not the cutting edge director from the 70's. Once Lucas became a businessman, he was all about business, and not about fullfulling artistic vision of making a the best movie he can, and not worrying about the monetary ramifications.

That is why he is so wishy washy today, cause everything is about money. If he was so steadfast about the O-OT dying a slow death, then why release it at all? Because of $$$$$$$$$$.

The worst thing to happen to Star Wars in 1977, and then ESB in 1980 was they became so big, that they created this monster we have to deal with at the present time. If Star Wars stayed popular like Star Trek as just a diehard niche audience, Lucas wouldn't have Skywalker Ranch, he wouldn't be this autonomous ruler of all his movies by owning 100% of them, and he would have never catered to kids as much with Ewoks in Jar Jar, cause he wouldn't be so worried about the merchandising and the bottom line.

Success was a double edged sword, we got classics like SW & ESB that are still great today, but then we get duds like ROTJ, The SE, and the PT, and more TV show crap on the way, which takes no chances, but is just another ploy to make more money to feed Lucas's empire. We created the monster, now we are paying for it.
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As long as high quality versions of the original versions are made available, I am all for Lucas following his "original vision." The question is, what exactly is his "original vision?" The 1997 SEs have been buried. If he makes further changes for the 2007 set, how will he say that the 2004 versions "don't exist" when so many people own them? I don't exactly know what Lucas's "original vision" is and, apparently, neither does he.

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Originally posted by: jack Spencer Jr
Lucas has for a while now been harping on the prequels and the SE as his original vision for Star Wars. It has long since passed into lore that lucas was forced to make changes to the first Star Wars (by various people, likely the studio or producer Gary Kurtz) to change the tone to make it less goofy, less kiddie to remove lame jokes, etc. Stuff found in Star Wars movies from ROTJ to the SE to the Prequels, since at that point, Lucas had enough power to do what he wanted.

I put forward that if he had made the original Star Wars the way he wanted, it would have been the only movie made. The lame jokes and more juvenile tone would have kept it from becoming the block buster it was. It would have done somewhat well, but not enough to warrant a sequel and if one was made anyway, it would have performed below expectations. But it's doubtful if one would have been made. So then Star Wars would have passed into history as a great movie... for children under 6.

I wish he would rethink his whole "original vision" stance because if he had his way back in 1977, he never would have again. Period.


I agree, and that's one reason why I'm against a director or any single person have complete control over the entire movie. Lets face it, as great as some directors are (Kubrick, Lynch, etc..) they are never exempt from making artistic misjudgments. That's why they need producers, editors, writers, etc.. to keep them in check and make sure they deliver a product thats acceptable by the masses. The OOT was a collaborative effort, while the PT was just one man telling everyone else what to do. In the end it = crap.

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Originally posted by: Darth_Evil

...George couldn't ever decide what his audience was, so he just wrote what felt good and was done with it. TPM was a huge mess because we had Jar-Jar's antics on one side, and Qui Gon and Obi-Wan's chats and duels on the other side. AOTC felt like he was catering to women who like chick flicks for most of it, and then near the end switched to action loving eight year olds. And ROTS was for action loving kids for much of it....for people who like chick flicks...and for whoever likes Jar-Jar he gave a nod to.


Originally posted by: CO
I honestly think Lucas changed once he was the ruler of Skywalker Ranch, and everything went from his vision to $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. If you look at THX-1138, American Grafitti, Star Wars, Raiders of the Lost Ark and ESB which he didn't direct, they were all films where he took a chance, and didn't worry about putting little kiddies in the theaters to pad the gross box office...

...Success was a double edged sword, we got classics like SW & ESB that are still great today, but then we get duds like ROTJ, The SE, and the PT, and more TV show crap on the way, which takes no chances, but is just another ploy to make more money to feed Lucas's empire. We created the monster, now we are paying for it.


Originally posted by: SpecialEditionSaboteur
...I'm against a director or any single person have complete control over the entire movie. Lets face it, as great as some directors are (Kubrick, Lynch, etc..) they are never exempt from making artistic misjudgments. That's why they need producers, editors, writers, etc.. to keep them in check and make sure they deliver a product thats acceptable by the masses. The OOT was a collaborative effort, while the PT was just one man telling everyone else what to do. In the end it = crap.


It all goes together. George gained creative control, George ignored the advice of other professionals (probably in part to display his control) and we ended up with a sub par product. Does anyone really think Rick or one of George’s other lackeys had the intestinal fortitude to tell George that he switched the focus of his movies at least twice in each PT film? I doubt if any of them even noticed, but a professional producer or editor would tell an artist that they were shifting focus too frequently. TPM and ROTS can’t be written with the same audience in mind unless the ultimate goal was a parody.
"Look, going good against bashers/gushers is one thing. Going good against the living? That's something else."
- Darth-Adroit

“I also thought George could be turned back to the good side. It couldn't be done. He is more CGI now than story. Twisted and evil.”
- Darth-Adroit
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I find the relationship with Marcia Lucas breaking down to be a compelling reason for the increasingly muddled output. She was in the editing team on all of Luca$h's films until 1980.

Also I think Luca$h's close relationship with Francis Ford Coppola during the 70s is telling. This is the period of 'The Godfather', 'The Conversation', 'The Godfather: Part II' and 'Apocalypse Now'. I think the serious-mindedness of his friend's very successful filmmaking output at that time may have rubbed off on him.

There is a shift generally, from 70s to 80s American blockbusters, from a big adult audience to a big youth audience.

What came first, the chicken or the egg? It was the egg laid by the chicken's evolutionary ancestor.

Spielberg and Luca$h practically invented the summer blockbuster in the 70s and what audience is around in summer that ain't there during term-time? Kids. Crowds of 'em looking for a thrill. The film companies decided that if they tailored the films to the "youth market" they would out-compete anything else around. Unfortunately they've given kids less and less credit as time has gone on.

Luca$h actually thinks more kids will enjoy his films if they know how the Force works, so he introduces midiclorians! He thinks that they won't understand it when Darth Vader (in ESB) says: "bring my shuttle" when he's in Cloud City and then appears on a Star Destroyer, so he adds clumsy extra dialogue to explain it. He thinks that they won't be able to cope with Han Solo being a hero and also gunning down an alien, so he changes the scene to a worse shot with awkward CGI alterations just to make the alien shoot first. He doesn't think kids can understand metaphor, complex personalities, character development and he also thinks your little sister can't cope without something cute and/or stupid (Ewoks/Jar Jar) to keep them interested.

He gives his audience less and less credit as time goes on.
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!