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Original Trilogy vs Kenobi: inconsistencies and stretches between | Plus in-series issues — Page 2

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yotsuya said:

Emre1601 said:

yotsuya said:

Emre1601 said:

Yotsuya, when mental gymnastics, or going down the proverbial rabbit hole, are required to try to explain inconsistencies and stretches like those listed in the OP, it indicates there are indeed issues in the series.

I enjoyed Obi-Wan Kenobi overall; there was much to enjoy in it, but could not help but notice the many issues I listed in the opening post. For me, it affected my appreciation of the show, and gives me concern for future Star Wars content when there are so many noticeable issues in a much anticipated and high profile series. Though everyone’s “mileage may vary” on this, and am happy that many others did enjoy it, regardless of such issues.

It is partly why I look forward to new Star Wars content away from what has come before. With new characters, in new or rarely seen settings, and in new eras. As from a consistency point of view, it has been demonstrated time and time again there is a real problem with adhering to what was actually established in the Original Trilogy.

I don’t require any mental gymnastics. I kept checking off things that explained what had previously required mental gymnastics. But I didn’t see anything that made new ones.

You literally introduced some mental gymnastics in your first paragraph of your post to me:

yotsuya said:

Well, the thing is that Lucas created quite a few issues between the OT and PT that were never dealt with until this series.

Padme dies and Leia was already taken away from her and yet she has memories of her mother. When Kenobi is around her in this series, she constantly reminds him if Padme. And there are several examples where Leia is obviously using the force to read minds and she could easily have seen Kenobi’s memories of her mother. She could also have seen some memories from bail as well.

Even if your “obvious” claim is taken as fact, along with your use of “could” ofs, when Luke asks Leia in ROTJ “Do you remember your mother? Your real mother?”, Leia does not reply or infer “Nothing at all. But I read the minds of others around me who were thinking about her when I was young, and so I will now present the memories from those others to you, as my own”.

Nor is Luke asking Leia for others thoughts of Leia’s mother.

This is an impressive feat of mental gymnastics you are introducing as some sort of justification.

But yes, we all agree Lucas did “create quite a few issues between the OT and PT”, but this series did not deal with them very much at all. As is listed in the OP, this series appears to add to these issues.
 

Leia’s powers are subtle and are never manifested. Vader doesn’t sense her power. Kenobi doesn’t sense her power. Luke doesn’t sense her power. Yoda says there is another, another Skykwalker and Kenobi says it is her. So only Yoda picked up on it. Even the inquisitors didn’t pick up on it. So her power must also provide some cloaking. She isn’t a skilled pilot or mechanic like her brother and father. She is a skilled diplomat and politician like her mother. So no one notices she has great power and how it does manifest itself aids her in what she is good at.

“Cloaking”? What? You seem to be using possible skillsets years in the future to justify the now. Luke does sense some of Leia’s ability in the being able to communicate by telepathy between the two of them in Empire Strikes Back. And in the ST we are shown that Leia was trained by Luke, so he does sense her power and abilities. Vader is impressed with her ability to resist the probe droid in SW: ANH. But Kenobi doesn’t get anywhere near her in Star Wars: ANH, up to the point of letting Vader strike him down.

Yet Leia actually directly tells Reva what Reva’s fears are during the failed interrogation on the Inquisitor Base, where Leia is able to resist Reva’s mind probe, and Reva is taken aback by it. So it is incorrect to say the Inquisitors do not pick up on it.
 

Why would Kenobi make up the story about Vader betraying and murdering Anakin? Either he is hiding things from Luke, or now, he is using Vader’s own explanation. But there is no need to tell Luke where it came from. He tells Luke that certain things can be true from a certain point of view. Not just this. So he used it as a teaching moment.

We know he didn’t make it up. We all know it is to hide the later retcon of Vader and Anakin now being the same person, and presented as a “stretch” in ROTJ. Yet why make the line of dialogue in Star Wars: ANH worse, or more noticeable, by now having Vader literally say to Obi-Wan that “I killed Anakin”, which certainly now jars even more with Kenobi’s line in Star Wars: ANH.
 

And for the most part, this series is a few days where a few people call him Obi-wan again, but mostly they call him Ben. So he is exaggerating a bit when he says he hasn’t used that name since before Luke was born. Even the original dialog provides some leeway. And it isn’t like he stopped being called Obi-wan before Luke was actually born even without this series. The Jedi were destroyed before Luke was born and he is likely marking that as when he ceased being called obi-wan, even if that is not quite true per Ep III. This series doesn’t really change that. It just reveals a few people did call him that in a brief episodes.

He doesn’t seem to be exaggerating when he said this line of dialogue at all. If you are going down the well-trodden path of the “crazy, forgetful and unreliable Ben” excuse many Prequel fans often use in an attempt to justify some of those discrepancies between the PT and OT to do so, that is up to you.

“A few people call him Obi Wan” and “a few people did call him that in a brief episodes” still results in him hearing the name Obi-Wan Kenobi on a number of occasions within the last 8-9 years. So not “That’s a name I haven’t hears in a long time. A long time.”, when you watch the scene back, the emphasis is also on “a long time” part of the dialogue.
 

One of the things about stories is that you have to apply a dose of reality to them. Taking every single quote as 100% fact does not reflect how most people talk. Most conversations have short cuts, incomplete statements, hyperbole, and don’t reflect the absolute truth. It is rare that someone can accurately relate the specific time since an event, like Sheldon Cooper, C-3PI, Mr. Spock, or Data constantly do. Most just throw out something that is roughly correct and writers write with that in mind. In fact writers are often more exact that real people ever are. Someone might throw out that something happened seven years ago in a conversation, but in reality it was 9 years ago. Times might be rounded up or down. And that is just the vagueness of time in conversations. Taking every word of dialog at face value is not a good way of checking realistic continuity (unless you have one of those very exact characters).

With respect, mistaking a couple of years is much different from mistaking 20 years for 9-10 years, and we know he isn’t making a mistake when he says the line of dialogue in Star Wars: ANH.

A “dose of reality required”? It is obvious Obi-Wan when states “That’s a name I haven’t hears in a long time. A long time” he is being accurate, truthful, and not mistaken; especially given the other line of dialogue from Obi Wan in Star Wars: ANH, dating these events around the same time of: “I haven’t gone by the name of Obi-Wan since, oh, before you were born”.
 

And Star Wars has always put the drama first. Things are not always described in great detail. The vagueness helps keep the hood on the magic behind the scenes. That is why Midichlorians were so objectionable - they opened the hood a bit and reduced the magic of the story telling.

So while there may be a few new quirks to the storyline because of this series, I think this series addressed most things well and answered more questions that it made. And any that it made are minor.

It is good you believe that, and I said in the OP, everyone has a different POV and everyone’s mileage on these isuses may vary. Obviously, we have a different point of view and disagree. But there is evidence of such discrepancies, stretches and issues listed in the OP, no matter some of the mental gymnastics resorted to in an attempt to dismiss some of the issues that people noticed in the series.

I am repeating myself, but it actually highlights how far down a rabbit hole people have to go to try and explain or justify some of these issues, inconsistencies and stretches; or somehow claiming these “issues between the OT and PT” are being addressed or “dealt with” in this series; and still come up short.

I look forward to your own thread where you claim watching this series meant you “kept checking off things that explained what had previously required mental gymnastics”. I honestly do. With respect. Emre.

That is all fine. It is your opinion and you are entitled to it, but I don’t agree. I don’t see any issues with this series and the saga films. None at all. That is my opinion. So we don’t agree. Who cares. We can both share our opinions and anyone can join in or have even other opinions. That is what discussion is about. As I said, I don’t see any mental gymnastics needed to fit this in with the saga. It think the landscape before this required more and this has smoothed things out considerably.

You have already said this. As I stated in the OP in several places, and in here since, it is okay you or anyone else disagrees or has a different opinion. Everyone’s mileage may vary.

When you said you “don’t require any mental gymnastics”, I simply demonstrated to you where you literally introduced your own mental gymnastics to justify issues with the series.

It appears you are not interested in discussion, but in repeating your point of view again and again. When you are proven wrong, or your claims are debunked, you ignore the posts which prove you incorrect, and attempt to shift the discussion. As you have just done above. This does not just occur in here, but in the main Kenobi thread, with others too.

You have now said your piece in here, and have now repeated yourself in here too, while ignoring the points presented to you. I do believe you when you say “I don’t see any issues with this series and the saga films. None at all”. So I am sure you will now want to prove me wrong by no longer repeating yourself in here.
 

I do genuinely find it interesting that people introduce their own mental gymnastics to address some of the issues, and how far down a rabbit hole people have to go to try and explain or justify some of these issues, inconsistencies and stretches; or claiming these “issues between the OT and PT” have been addressed or “dealt with” in this series; and yet still come up short. So again, I do look forward to reading your own thread on Kenobi detailing why you believe the series “kept checking off things that explained what had previously required mental gymnastics”, “I think this series addressed most things well and answered more questions that it made.”, “this has smoothed things out considerably”, and “I don’t see any issues with this series and the saga films. None at all”.

Please let me know when it is finished and you have posted it.

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Even if yotsuya is being 100% legit, I love that they’re riling up the people here so much. Sometimes the best trolls are the ones who are entirely honest.

At least yotsuya is less predictable than Stardust1138 and doesn’t spam a crap ton of YouTube links. Stardust was under the faulty impression that watching YouTube video essays makes you extra-intelligent. Trolls shouldn’t make you do homework.

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BedeHistory731 said:

Even if yotsuya is being 100% legit, I love that they’re riling up the people here so much. Sometimes the best trolls are the ones who are entirely honest.

At least yotsuya is less predictable than Stardust1138 and doesn’t spam a crap ton of YouTube links. Stardust was under the faulty impression that watching YouTube video essays makes you extra-intelligent. Trolls shouldn’t make you do homework.

There it is…you just love stir the pot…just as I said. You guys are just trollin and using antiquated troll tactics. Please…please don’t try to act like you’re being “smart”.

What…you mad??? You mad!!!