Only Imperial Stormtroopers... etc.

I had a thought last night.  I remembered the scene where Obi-Wan died in Star Wars, and that George said it hadn't been that way until the last moment.  Originally Ben got away, leaving Vader "with egg on his face," but, aside from Ben not having anything else to do, George thought it took away from the menace of Vader, so that's why Vader kills him.  But then I thought about that.  Does it really increase the menace of Vader if Ben just randomly gives up and lets Vader kill him?  Yes, it was meant to make Ben seem more powerful, more in control, and it succeeded at that, but it doesn't seem like it makes Vader more menacing to play into Ben's hands.  I thought that maybe it would have been more powerful if Vader had really gotten the upper hand in the fight, had Ben's back to a wall, and the confrontation seemed lost.  Not go so far as to have Ben on the ground about to beg for mercy, but just in a corner, maybe disarmed, and, rather than struggle, gives in to his fate.  Then it would serve both sides of making Vader menacing and formidable while still retaining Ben's dignity.  What do you think?

But then, in between thinking of that and writing this thread, I remembered that there was a bit more danger than I remembered.  He was surrounded by Stormtroopers at the end.  I'd almost forgotten about that!  He was cornered!  He was trapped!  It was pretty much exactly as I'd wanted it.  But THEN I remembered that... these are Imperial Stormtroopers.  They suck!  In the prequels, Obi-Wan routinely fought his way single-handedly through regiments of droids and clones without breaking a sweat.  He even stupidly jumped into a ring of battle droids and General Grievous in ROTS. 

But, Gaffer, you will scoff.  Those are the prequels.  They're just ridiculous, they represent a different mindset than the original film, and we try to pretend they don't exist!  Good point.  What about the sequels then, where the heroes also mow down hoardes of Stormtroopers while only sustaining a single injury (Leia's arm)?  Most of the time, they didn't even have laser-blocking lightsabers!  Come to think of it, isn't ROTJ the first time we ever see a lightsaber used for that purpose?  I think it is.

But, Gaffer, Anchorhead will scoff.  Those are the sequels.  They're just ridiculous, they represent a different mindset than the first film, and I try to pretend they don't exist!  Good point.  What about the first film then, when Han and Chewie manages to chase down an entire regiment of stormtroopers for a little bit?  Still seems like the all-powerful Jedi might be able to manage something even in the context of the first film alone.

So while I'm on the subject of stormtroopers, how about stealth?  Apparently they're supposed to represent some kind of a threat since Ben tries to stay in the shadows and avoid confrontation while he's on the Death Star.  I suppose the only other time that really happens is in ROTJ when the rebels are trying to get to the shield generator undetected.  But that fails, and they spend most of their time killing any imperials who happen to see them.  I always wondered how that managed to work.  They were there for a whole day.  I find it hard to believe that none of the commanding officers found it suspicious that dozens of men never bothered to check in...

Well, anyway, those are some observations of mine.  My fingers are sore now.

We see Luke block the lasers of the training droid.  That's not a blaster, per se, but I think it shows that the intention was more or less there all along.

But back to your question... wait... what was your question?

Good point.  Just saw that this morning, I don't know how I forgot.  But, yeah, that's hardly a crux of my argument.

Anyway, there are several questions.  One, could Ben's death have benefitted from more danger?  Two, did the presence of stormtroopers in that situation increase the level of danger?  Three, if so, have stormtroopers (and their counterparts) become exponentially more pathetic as time goes on?  Four, what happened to stealth?  Five, how did the scouts in ROTJ not realize that many of their own men went missing at the same time their speeder bike began to randomly explode in the forest, and did they not manage to put two and two together (maybe slightly justified in that it was a trap all along)?

Gaffer Tape said:

One, could Ben's death have benefitted from more danger?

I'm not sure, Gaffer.  I like the way it goes down currently, not sure if him getting beat down makes Vader more "evil", just makes him seem more powerful.  And I like the idea of an old man still being powerful enough to have to give up in order to be beaten by his apprentice.

Two, did the presence of stormtroopers in that situation increase the level of danger?

I've always thought of them more as a peanut gallery in that particular sequence.  They just want to see a good old fashioned lightsaber fight. :-D

Three, if so, have stormtroopers (and their counterparts) become exponentially more pathetic as time goes on?

Definitely.  Even in the same movie, we go from:

them slaughtering Rebels
being told how precise they are
hiding from them
being cornered by them

to

chasing them
locking doors on them that they can't figure out how to open (twice!)
standing in plain view in front of several of them

This doesn't include the rest of the films or the battle droids (oh, the battle droids).

Four, what happened to stealth?

Admittedly, the Rebels were trying to sneak around Endor, but Han had to go ruin it by wanting to take the first two they saw out directly.

Five, how did the scouts in ROTJ not realize that many of their own men went missing at the same time their speeder bike began to randomly explode in the forest, and did they not manage to put two and two together (maybe slightly justified in that it was a trap all along)?

Probably the knowing its a trap part as they had to keep the Rebels rooting around long enough to bring the fleet in (assuming the Rebels had to send a signal to the fleet, which they didn't).  My favorite part is this is "an entire legion of [the] best troops".  How do they figure that out?  Its comprised of troopers that survived at least one battle somehow?

doubleofive said:

Gaffer Tape said:

One, could Ben's death have benefitted from more danger?

I'm not sure, Gaffer.  I like the way it goes down currently, not sure if him getting beat down makes Vader more "evil", just makes him seem more powerful.  And I like the idea of an old man still being powerful enough to have to give up in order to be beaten by his apprentice.

I'm not saying I don't like it either.  I probably shouldn't have said "benefitted."  I was more referring to whether or not would help clarify what Lucas claimed he was going for.  Since this is the first example I could think of, take Back to the Future Part II when Biff has Marty cornered on the roof.  Biff clearly has the upper hand at that moment, having Marty at gunpoint, with Marty's only option to jump off the roof.  But Marty knows what Biff doesn't:  that the DeLorean is going to be right there to save him, similar to, "if you strike me down..." etc.  Similarly, Ben could be backed into a corner and seemingly beaten, even though he knows that he can live on if he is struck down, and I don't think he'd lose any power by that.

I'm probably going to get lambasted for even thinking this, but, even though I enjoy it, I occasionally do get the feeling of, "I'm going to sacrifice myself now... because the plot requires me to."  I, too, admit that I always saw the stormtroopers a peanut gallery until writing this post, rather than viewing them as a genuine threat.  And if there is no threat, there doesn't seem to be any reason for him to just go, "Whoop, I guess it's time for me to die."  Again, there's the argument that Ben needs to die so that he can go to the afterlife and council Luke in the final battle.  Okay.  But he could have just as easily said, "Use the Force," to Luke over the ship's radio from the Yavin base.  Hell, he probably did say that in the script before the decision to kill him off was made. 

And, yes, before I go any further, having the spirit of Ben talk to Luke is certainly more dramatically resonant than having it as comm chatter, so don't think I'm tearing down the notion of killing him off.  I'm just toying with the idea that it might have been better to up the danger a little bit in order to give Ben a clearer motivation and clearer sacrifice.  Maybe.

Sluggo said:

2. Yes.  Stormtroopers where everywhere.  If the rebels split up and were hiding on, oh say, levels five and six, the stormtroopers could report it in.  And if you manage to lower a blast door on them, they still will find a way to make it through.  And they all can't miss. Sooner or later, one of them will hit their targert.

***

4.  The shooting script and the rough cut of Star Wars had Ben sneaking past many more Imperial officers and Stormtroopers.  The Force was with him.

For two, I was really just referring to Ben being surrounded by them just before his death, not the other stormtroopers we'd seen prior to that.  When the the stormtroopers noticed that Vader was fighting this old man and jog over there, did viewers go, "Oh, shit.  He's surrounded.  He's screwed.  What's he going to do now?"?  And, more importantly, is that a view that is diminished because of the prequels where dozens of stormtrooper equivalents are no threat at all to a single Jedi?  In the context of the first movie alone, are a dozen stormtroopers considered a serious threat to a fully-trained Jedi?

And for four, look at my original post, I guess.  I was actually praising Ben's actions in the first movie for being the only true examples of stealth in, well, any of the movies.  Had this been the sequels, or especially the prequels, Ben probably would have just gutted them all with his lightsaber without a second thought.

I guess my thought is, that if the stormtroopers are supposed to be considered threats, and that Ben couldn't possibly fight his way through all of them and Vader, then I suppose I have no complaint about why he chose to give up at that moment.  I guess my view has been tainted too much by the prequels (and even the sequels to an extent) where the stormtrooper equivalents are analagous to bowling pins that can be knocked over in the slightest breeze.  Sigh.  Did George ever watch his movies when making the prequels, or was he too busy thinking, "Ooh, Jedi are kewl.  They make stuff dead and tey r invincibal!"?

Anchorhead said:

Gaffer Tape said:

But, Gaffer, Anchorhead will scoff.  Those are the sequels.  They're just ridiculous, they represent a different mindset than the first film, and I try to pretend they don't exist! 

 

I don't try to pretend they don't exist. I have little or no interest in them these days, but I'm aware of the story continuation. That's why I don't make statements like "Those are not Star Wars films", "those are not canon", etc, etc. They are. They're just Star Wars films that I haven't seen in a long time, following a story line I don't care about. My issues regarding Lucas and his attempt to alter history are a separate matter.

For the record, I think Empire has some fantastic moments. I may get the 06 DVD of it before too long.

Regarding your post, are you asking something specific or just pondering the less-than-consistent portrayal of the Stormtroopers throughout the series? It seems to me that they were a substantial threat in the first film and less so in the second & third. As far as Phantom goes, I don't remember seeing any, which is just my lack of familiarity with the film. I can't speak to their threat level.

As for Vader, I think his level of threat and\or power was correct for the story in Star Wars. He was a military member with little regard for other people, he was highly skilled, and had a questionable past that was enough to keep other military personnel somewhat distant. However, he wasn't the be-all, end-all of all things Empire. He wasn't beyond authority. He answered to other ranking members, who did sometimes challenge him. I thought that was a perfect balance.

He was morphed into an almost superhero state as the series went on, which to me felt out of place from the first film.

Ben gave up because a loss was nearly inevitable. Plus it was the necessary choice for the mission to succeed, or even to continue at that point. Earlier in the film, Ben tells Luke that "the droids would now be in the hands of the Empire". By sacrificing himself, he was trying to prevent that from happening at that point in their mission.

Yeah, sorry.  I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth.  Well, actually, yeah, I guess I was, but it was all in good fun.  You're the most well-known single movie fan around here, so you do tend to be used as a case study.  Sorry for the innaccuracy.  Hopefully despite that you saw where I was going.

As for Phantom, there are no stormtroopers in that film.  There are just the battle droids, but, in essence, they are used as the stormtroopers, as are the clonetroopers in the other prequels, the expendable, faceless enemy mooks.  And, obviously, in those films, said mooks are dropped without any kind of threat at all.

So now I do have a question if you don't mind.  How was Ben's death the necessary choice for the mission to succeed?  Again, we're going from the shooting script of Ben escaping to the actual film where Ben dies.  Other than that, is there really anything substantially different about the two?  As far as I know, there isn't, so what did Ben dying accomplish?  How did his death keep the droids from being captured?

Yeah, but like I said, Ben could have just as easily (but in a not nearly as cool way) delivered Luke his pep talk if he was still alive.  Or did the spirit of Ben somehow pull Luke closer to the Force?  I thought the message was simply, "Believe in yourself, and you can do it."

Didn't Alec Guinness convince Lucas to kill off Obi-Wan because he couldn't stand the dialogue? I remember reading that SOMEWHERE...

Oh, please don't get me wrong.  I'm not saying that was bad or didn't work in a lot of ways.  Especially in terms of Luke, it was a huge improvement that Ben died.  It's a classic motif (sigh, Lucas has ruined that word) to have the mentor killed off so the hero can stand on his own two feet.  And, yes, that's great.  It improves the story.  Like I said, my only concern was whether or not Ben was in sufficient danger to justify sacrificing himself. 

Sluggo said:

 

2. Yes.  Stormtroopers where everywhere.  If the rebels split up and were hiding on, oh say, levels five and six, the stormtroopers could report it in. 

 Are you suggesting that Death Star era clones may actually be a clone of a different, observationaly skilled, and considerably more handsome Prequel Character?

Cover... BLOWN!

Oh, in a related note, I should like to point out that, according to my computer at least, this is the 1,900th thread in this forum.  I am very proud to be that guy.  You're welcome.

I don't think Ben ever planned to leave the Death Star. It became a kind of suicide mission once he realized what was happening and that Vader was there, and felt confident enough that Luke would carry on in his place. He figured he'd complete his task of disabling the tractor beam and distracting Vader & the stormtroopers so that the gang could escape.

bkev said:
Didn't Alec Guinness convince Lucas to kill off Obi-Wan because he couldn't stand the dialogue? I remember reading that SOMEWHERE...