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One of the flaws with Anakin turning to the darkside...

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I always imagined Anakin slowly turning to the darkside over a period of time spanning many years. In ROTS, he turns from being a pretty typical human being into a sick, twisted, sadistic, madman within a couple of days, perhaps even hours. Did it ever occur to him before he tries to kill all those jedi and Padme, he sleeps on it??!!!! It would've been a real drag for him to wake up the next day in the vader suit and think to himself; man, what was I thinking yesturday!

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If they had started with an 18-20 y.o. Anakin, we could have had a more natural and gradual slide to the dark side with his heroism and goodness peaking in the early/middle of the second movie.

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I always imagined Anakin slowly turning to the darkside over a period of time spanning many years.

As was the case with the films we have. During the 9 years between TPM and AOTC, things went horribly wrong. Unfortunately we don't get to see the journey from innocent young boy to twisted adult.

In ROTS, he turns from being a pretty typical human being into a sick, twisted, sadistic, madman within a couple of days, perhaps even hours.

False. He was always a sick, twisted, sadistic madman from AOTC-ROTS. Nothing changed. "Killed women and children" and "was blatantly treachorous" all the while, as ConfusedMatthew so superbly put it.

Did it ever occur to him before he tries to kill all those jedi and Padme, he sleeps on it??!!!!

Anger, jealousy, selfishness... all part of the dark side. These emotions in great intensity cloud judgment, and everything we know from the OT seems to only indicate that the dark side augments these emotions.

It would've been a real drag for him to wake up the next day in the vader suit and think to himself; man, what was I thinking yesturday!

Which he most likely did, to an extent. Which would lead to ambivalance: Vader hates himself for his choices, yet turns around and makes excuses for them. Great inner conflict would only drive his evil actions, because he sees that excercising great control over others and his surroundings, he may gain control over his inner conflicts. An ongoing, doomed-to-failure battle.

"Fuck you. All the star wars movies were excellent. none of them sucked. Also, revenge of the sith is the best."

- DarthZorgon (YouTube)

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u pretty much narrowed it all down

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After I saw the OT I assumed Anakin turned dark pretty quickly as a result of his anger or something, like how the emperor tried to turn Luke dark through his anger in ROTJ. I just expected it to be convincing, unlike how it was done in ROTS.

It's true that as early as AOTC Annie was not a nice guy. You might understand him killing some Tuskens after his mother's death (though it would be risking a turn to the dark side if he did it out of anger), but killing Tusken KIDS is something else entirely. That shows he wasn't a good guy, as does his support for dictatorship. In the OT Lucas gave us the impression that Anakin was a good guy who got turned evil. Clearly he revised that part of the story for the PT when he turned Annie into an asshole who became more of an asshole.

Also, re killing the Tuskens, by the standards of the OT killing those Tuskens in a rage should have been enough to turn him all the way dark. The emperor clearly hoped to turn Luke dark just by getting him to kill his father in a rage.

I think in the PT we're supposed to get the message that Anakin did turn dark gradually. Killing the tuskens being the first step. Using rage to defeat Dooku and killing him being another step. But this gradual process was not made very clear and we're still given a picture of him being one of the good guys before he signs up to help the emperor and then a short while later being so far gone that he agrees with the emperor that Jedi are going to do terrible stuff.

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Janskeet said:

In ROTS, he turns from being a pretty typical human being into a sick, twisted, sadistic, madman within a couple of days, perhaps even hours.

Days? Hours? Try within a couple of seconds, perhaps even minutes.

Now I agree with DarkFather and Confused Matthew. Anakin was a pretty twisted individual from AOTC onward. He was depicted as a creepy obsessive stalker type in his expressions of love for Pandabear, and when he killed a whole villiage of Tuskens, it only confirmed our suspictions that this guy not only needed some professional help, but he also needed to be locked up.

However his transition from that strange twisted freak whom everyone strangely seemed to love so much and seemed happy to accept despite of his severe issues, to the guy who goes around killing halflings and choking his wife to death was painfully abrupt. There is nothing there to indicate the passage of hours or days. In the course of a few minutes, "Palpatine, he is the Sith Lord. We've got to stop him." to "To take that Shaft!" to "What have I done?" to "I pledge myself to you." to "Alright, if it must be done, then it must be done. So, where are these small kids you need me to murder?"

 

 

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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C3PX said:
Janskeet said:

In ROTS, he turns from being a pretty typical human being into a sick, twisted, sadistic, madman within a couple of days, perhaps even hours.

Days? Hours? Try within a couple of seconds, perhaps even minutes.

Now I agree with DarkFather and Confused Matthew. Anakin was a pretty twisted individual from AOTC onward. He was depicted as a creepy obsessive stalker type in his expressions of love for Pandabear, and when he killed a whole villiage of Tuskens, it only confirmed our suspictions that this guy not only needed some professional help, but he also needed to be locked up.

However his transition from that strange twisted freak whom everyone strangely seemed to love so much and seemed happy to accept despite of his severe issues, to the guy who goes around killing halflings and choking his wife to death was painfully abrupt. There is nothing there to indicate the passage of hours or days. In the course of a few minutes, "Palpatine, he is the Sith Lord. We've got to stop him." to "To take that Shaft!" to "What have I done?" to "I pledge myself to you." to "Alright, if it must be done, then it must be done. So, where are these small kids you need me to murder?"

 

 

The character develpement of Anakin in the prequels is just really amaturish and nonsensical. Episodes 1 & 2 could've easily been combined into one film. In fact, I don't think there was anything really worth seeing in episodes 1 & 2. What was said in the movies easily could've been summed up in the opening scroll an that would've given Lucas a lot more time to develop Anakin's character. We didn't need to see most of episode 1 spent on Tatoonie (spelling? I can never spell that damn planet right!) with Jar Jar stepping in poodo, Anakin building C3P0, the pod race, the midichlorians, the prophesy etc. In episode 2 we didn't need to see this inept clone mystery unfold at a 2nd grade level.  We didn't need to see Anakin and Padme fall in love so obtusely. One thing I would like to mention about the clones. Does anyone beleive that Lucas originally intended storm troopers to be clones in the OT? I doubt it. Why did they have different voices in ANH? Will Lucas be changing that too in his next editions?  Was explaining the orgin of the storm troopers even necessary? Was the midicholorians and the prophecy necessary either? I don't think so.

The problem is somewhere down the line Lucas decided that star wars were b-movies. I never thought of the OT as B-movies. The prequels certainly are, and as B-movies I think they're acceptable. But as real movies leading up to the OT they are not.

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Actually, the Star Wars Official Poster Monthly magazine issue 4 back in 1978 said the stormtroopers were clones, so I guess Lucas had thought that up already.

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Vaderisnothayden said:

 

It's true that as early as AOTC Annie was not a nice guy. You might understand him killing some Tuskens after his mother's death (though it would be risking a turn to the dark side if he did it out of anger), but killing Tusken KIDS is something else entirely. That shows he wasn't a good guy, as does his support for dictatorship. In the OT Lucas gave us the impression that Anakin was a good guy who got turned evil. Clearly he revised that part of the story for the PT when he turned Annie into an asshole who became more of an asshole.

 

 

 i believe it was Obi-Wan telling us about anakin in the OT. Anikan never told Obi-Wan about the event with the tuskens. so Obi-Wan said Anakin was a good man even though he didn't hear about the tusken slaughter.

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rcb said:
Vaderisnothayden said:

 

It's true that as early as AOTC Annie was not a nice guy. You might understand him killing some Tuskens after his mother's death (though it would be risking a turn to the dark side if he did it out of anger), but killing Tusken KIDS is something else entirely. That shows he wasn't a good guy, as does his support for dictatorship. In the OT Lucas gave us the impression that Anakin was a good guy who got turned evil. Clearly he revised that part of the story for the PT when he turned Annie into an asshole who became more of an asshole.

 

 

 i believe it was Obi-Wan telling us about anakin in the OT. Anikan never told Obi-Wan about the event with the tuskens. so Obi-Wan said Anakin was a good man even though he didn't hear about the tusken slaughter.

That still doesn't fix it up. It wasn't just some view of Obi Wan. It was the picture the OT was giving us of Anakin. We weren't supposed to say "This is Obi Wan's view. Maybe he didn't know everything." We were supposed to assume Obi Wan knew what he was talking about and thus get the idea that Anakin was a good man. Lucas and Kasdan were giving us the message that Anakin was a a good man originally. Obi Wan was just the mouthpiece they used in communicating with us. 

The argument that it was just Obi Wan's view is just an excuse made to fix up Lucas's prequels mess, and I don't agree with making excuses to hide his prequel mess. The OT clearly told us that Anakin was a good man and the prequels went against that, major fuck up due to Lucas revising his story and turning Anakin into a jerk. You can bet Anakin wasn't a jerk in Lucas's original story or Lucas wouldn't have had Kenobi give us the impression he was a good guy.

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I don't know.  I've been thinking about this, and it is interesting (although probably not intentional) to think that maybe Obi-Wan didn't just lie to protect Luke, but he was also oblivious to the relationship he and Anakin had in the first place.  You've seen it before, those friendships where one person is totally devoted to the other and completely unable to see that the other one can barely stand him.  Maybe Obi-Wan was that delusional guy who never could tell that his overbearing advice was totally pissing off his pupil.  "Oh, he's just screwing around with me.  That Anakin!  What a buddy!"  "Um... no, I actually hate you."  "Ah, there you go again!"

A generation later:  "Oh, Luke.  Your father and I were best friends.  We were so close that he used to say things like how much he hated me and wanted to kill me, but I know he didn't really mean it.  Ah, those were the days.  What a rebellious little scamp.  And a good friend."

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To be fair, they did have some comrade moments shown. As inside the lift on the way to reunite with Padme at the beginning of AOTC, they are having a good-natured talk about the past. Also in AOTC we have Anakin admitting to even Padme that he sees Obi-Wan as a wise and powerful teacher. And then in ROTS, Anakin saves Obi-Wan after he was put out by Dooku: if Anakin had truly hated him, I believe he would be the type to just leave Obi-Wan there and tell the Council he had died in an unfortunate accident. Later on in ROTS they have a similar talk about how many times Anakin has saved Obi-Wan.

Also notice in ROTS, and this is something few have drawn a connection on: Only when Obi-Wan says "You were my brother Anakin. I loved you." does Vader ignite from the heat. During all that time, they had been just as close to the lava as Vader was in that scene, and were unharmed. I see it as Obi-Wan's words touching Vader in a surprising way to the point that he lost concentration, and the "Force shield" against the heat of the lava broke. I think when Obi-Wan said that, Vader finally realized how much he had deserved his defeat. He had screwed everyone over, even his former brother/comrade-in-arms. Yet like that scene with Vader weeping, he doesn't believe there is any turning back.

Though Obi-Wan's memories of the person Anakin was were indeed overly romanticized, I do think Anakin did have respect, love, and admiration for Obi-Wan. It was his issue with pride that caused him to ignore it sometimes.

"Fuck you. All the star wars movies were excellent. none of them sucked. Also, revenge of the sith is the best."

- DarthZorgon (YouTube)

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Vaderisnothayden said:
rcb said:
Vaderisnothayden said:

 

It's true that as early as AOTC Annie was not a nice guy. You might understand him killing some Tuskens after his mother's death (though it would be risking a turn to the dark side if he did it out of anger), but killing Tusken KIDS is something else entirely. That shows he wasn't a good guy, as does his support for dictatorship. In the OT Lucas gave us the impression that Anakin was a good guy who got turned evil. Clearly he revised that part of the story for the PT when he turned Annie into an asshole who became more of an asshole.

 

 

 i believe it was Obi-Wan telling us about anakin in the OT. Anikan never told Obi-Wan about the event with the tuskens. so Obi-Wan said Anakin was a good man even though he didn't hear about the tusken slaughter.

That still doesn't fix it up. It wasn't just some view of Obi Wan. It was the picture the OT was giving us of Anakin. We weren't supposed to say "This is Obi Wan's view. Maybe he didn't know everything." We were supposed to assume Obi Wan knew what he was talking about and thus get the idea that Anakin was a good man. Lucas and Kasdan were giving us the message that Anakin was a a good man originally. Obi Wan was just the mouthpiece they used in communicating with us. 

The argument that it was just Obi Wan's view is just an excuse made to fix up Lucas's prequels mess, and I don't agree with making excuses to hide his prequel mess. The OT clearly told us that Anakin was a good man and the prequels went against that, major fuck up due to Lucas revising his story and turning Anakin into a jerk. You can bet Anakin wasn't a jerk in Lucas's original story or Lucas wouldn't have had Kenobi give us the impression he was a good guy.

 

 i guess he did know of him killing the younglings. however, why would Obi-wan tell luke the truth.

"Hey Luke ur father was a good man! he slaughter little kids!"

besides, i think in the OT we didn't have as big a grasp on how evil the darkside really was.

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DarkFather said:

Though Obi-Wan's memories of the person Anakin was were indeed overly romanticized,

 

No, they are not. They fit perfectly with the dying Anakin we met at the end of ROTJ. They only look overly romanticized if you go by the prequels and the prequels are bull. 

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No, they are not. They fit perfectly with the dying Anakin we met at the end of ROTJ. They only look overly romanticzed if you go by the prequels and the prequels are bull. 

I was obviously speaking from a saga (with prequels) perspective.

"Fuck you. All the star wars movies were excellent. none of them sucked. Also, revenge of the sith is the best."

- DarthZorgon (YouTube)

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You're a cutie.

"Fuck you. All the star wars movies were excellent. none of them sucked. Also, revenge of the sith is the best."

- DarthZorgon (YouTube)

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"Come on, admit it. Sometimes you think I'm all right."

"Fuck you. All the star wars movies were excellent. none of them sucked. Also, revenge of the sith is the best."

- DarthZorgon (YouTube)

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too much male bonding going on here :s