Info Wanted: OT Sound Mixes

I have a detailed knowledge of the various sound mixes for Star Wars, but I am less familiar with Empire and Jedi. I want to have an accurate theatrical sound mix and I’m wondering if there were any changes that I have not caught between the initial theatrical and home video releases and the 1985 release and the 1993 Definitive Edition/Faces/GOUT releases. At the moment I am unaware of any changes to the stereo/surround sound mix from the original 35 mm theatrical version to the 1993 version. But I wanted to check with the community before I continue with that assumption. I am aware that there are some sound quality differences between the versions (dynamics, stereo field width, etc.) but I am looking for actual edits like Star Wars has (the appearing and disappearing Threepio tractor beam line, the many differences between the original mono and stereo versions and the partial inclusion of some of the mono variations in the 1993 version). I understand Empire might have had a unique mono mix, but I have never come across it. I just want to be complete if those two movies any any similar edits that I might have missed. Especially since I am mostly familiar with the 1985 and 1993 versions.

The ESB mono mix also shares some differences with the Special Edition mix - Yoda crying out when Luke points the blaster at him, the extra “yes, yes” or whatever it was at the beginning of the Luke-running-with-Yoda-on-his-back scene, Threepio’s “There’s nowhere to go!”, Chewie’s roar drowning out “…that we can trust you?” after “Do you think that after what you did to Han…”, and some other stuff like that. But on the other hand, it still has “till I get the shelter built”, “You’re lucky you don’t taste very good”, the tracked-in music over Captain Needa’s shuttle, and the ‘normal’ take of “The first transport is away” (but at a higher pitch; it sounds to my ear like the stereo/70mm mixes slowed the pitch down, and the mono has it as originally recorded). And there are other unique differences (like the snowspeeder takeoff scene having no music).

i have a question what audio track has the original voice of aunt beru?

schorman13 said:

jedimasterobiwan said:

i have a question what audio track has the original voice of aunt beru?

All extant mixes except the Mono mix.

does anyone have access to that audio?

Well, it depends on what you mean by original. Very few of the lines of dialog in the final movie were recorded on set. In the case Beru, all her lines were dubbed. There is the 77 stereo and the 77 mono versions of Beru. The 77 stereo just sounds bad, but it has been the version used in every audio edit of the film except the 77 mono. The 77 mono currently exists in fan circles in two forms. A UK airing of Star Wars utilized the 77 mono mix and most of the restoration/preservation efforts have included that audio track. More recently, a 35mm print with the English mono audio mix has been found and so we now have two different copies. My initial listen indicates that the UK airing is better quality.

Some fan edits have sought to fix this. Andywan’s Revisited replaced the 77 stereo version with the 77 mono version. I have a draft mix that I use for my color correction tests where I did the same thing.

The 77 stero version of Beru’s lines sounds badly edited. The 77 mono version of her lines sounds much better. Far more polished and what you expect from an Oscar award winning sound mix. For the 2011 blu-ray, they went back to all the original elements and still chose the 77 stereo takes and edits instead of the 77 mono takes and edits. I was very disappointed.

The 77 mono mix has several other significant changes. It has the Threepio tractor beam line (which reappeared in the 85 mix and then was absent in the 93 mix, but was back for the SE and has since remained), it has a different pacing when Luke, Ben and the droids confront the stormtroopers (which they added back later for the SE), a different take of the line when the stormtroopser are searching Mos Eisley and knock on the door Threepio and R2 are hiding behind, a different take of the line when it is reported to Tarkin that the Princess has escaped. It has lots of other differences, but most of the others have made their way into later edits. Most of the small things found their way into the 93 edit. Pretty much everything except the alternate dialog has been included in the blu-ray. I think the blu-ray uses all the 1977 stereo dialog and includes all the 1977 mono effects sounds (plus all the SE changes). Ben Burt claimed that some of the differences were because of the quality of the original recordings, but I don’t buy it.

To be honest, neither the Stereo Beru or the Mono Beru sound all that natural to me. Mono Beru felt like she stressed the wrong syllables sometimes.

flametitan said:

To be honest, neither the Stereo Beru or the Mono Beru sound all that natural to me. Mono Beru felt like she stressed the wrong syllables sometimes.

I wasn’t speaking of performance, only sound mixing. The stereo Beru is noticeably dubbed. The mono Beru seems as well dubbed as Owen and seems to fit nicer in the mix. The stereo Beru has always stood out to me as being way too obviously dubbed and that bugs the hell out of me.

So none of the audio tracks of beru are of the actress?

I thought the prevailing theory was that while Beru’s voice was dubbed, it was still Shelagh Fraser, just doing an American accent, and with the mono mix being a different take from the same dubbing session. Doesn’t J.W. Rinzler’s book, or somewhere else, mention an ADR session with Fraser?

The stereo and mono mixes do not sound like different people to me, just different takes of the same person (whoever it is).

So the mono track is the best take i’m confused.

I guess it’s a matter of opinion. I assume it never showed up on home video because stereo compatibility was preferred to what George was calling his definitive version.

JawsTDS said:

none said:

April (EXACT DATES UNKNOWN)

LARS HOMESTEAD - KITCHEN INTERIOR

One day was spent filming the scene of Shelagh Fraser as Beru talking to Own in their Kitchen, and an additional scene, later cut from the final theatrical cut, of Beru using a milk dispenser.  Fraser’s voice would be dubbed for the film’s release by an unknown actress (who would then be re-dubbed herself, for unknown reasons, for the STAR WARS TV version in 1982, before having her voice returned for the 1997 SPECIAL EDITION re-release).

This information is very incorrect. This community has the 77 stereo from early home releases, the 77 mono, the 85 stereo, and the 93 stereo, the 97 mix, the 04 mix, the 11 mix, as well as an in theater audio recording of the 77 70 mm surround mix. The 77 mono is the only one where Beru’s voice is different and it is only a different take, not a different actress. The prevailing opinion is that the dubbing was with Shelagh Fraser. So it was not redubbed in 82. Both versions are from 1977 and only the mono version out of all the audio mixes has the different take of Beru, as well as quite a number of other lines, though I can only easily identify 2 other lines that are different enough to be noticeable.

yotsuya said:

JawsTDS said:

none said:

April (EXACT DATES UNKNOWN)

LARS HOMESTEAD - KITCHEN INTERIOR

One day was spent filming the scene of Shelagh Fraser as Beru talking to Own in their Kitchen, and an additional scene, later cut from the final theatrical cut, of Beru using a milk dispenser.  Fraser’s voice would be dubbed for the film’s release by an unknown actress (who would then be re-dubbed herself, for unknown reasons, for the STAR WARS TV version in 1982, before having her voice returned for the 1997 SPECIAL EDITION re-release).

This information is very incorrect. This community has the 77 stereo from early home releases, the 77 mono, the 85 stereo, and the 93 stereo, the 97 mix, the 04 mix, the 11 mix, as well as an in theater audio recording of the 77 70 mm surround mix. The 77 mono is the only one where Beru’s voice is different and it is only a different take, not a different actress. The prevailing opinion is that the dubbing was with Shelagh Fraser. So it was not redubbed in 82. Both versions are from 1977 and only the mono version out of all the audio mixes has the different take of Beru, as well as quite a number of other lines, though I can only easily identify 2 other lines that are different enough to be noticeable.

Which take do you prefer?

jedimasterobiwan said:

yotsuya said:

JawsTDS said:

none said:

April (EXACT DATES UNKNOWN)

LARS HOMESTEAD - KITCHEN INTERIOR

One day was spent filming the scene of Shelagh Fraser as Beru talking to Own in their Kitchen, and an additional scene, later cut from the final theatrical cut, of Beru using a milk dispenser.  Fraser’s voice would be dubbed for the film’s release by an unknown actress (who would then be re-dubbed herself, for unknown reasons, for the STAR WARS TV version in 1982, before having her voice returned for the 1997 SPECIAL EDITION re-release).

This information is very incorrect. This community has the 77 stereo from early home releases, the 77 mono, the 85 stereo, and the 93 stereo, the 97 mix, the 04 mix, the 11 mix, as well as an in theater audio recording of the 77 70 mm surround mix. The 77 mono is the only one where Beru’s voice is different and it is only a different take, not a different actress. The prevailing opinion is that the dubbing was with Shelagh Fraser. So it was not redubbed in 82. Both versions are from 1977 and only the mono version out of all the audio mixes has the different take of Beru, as well as quite a number of other lines, though I can only easily identify 2 other lines that are different enough to be noticeable.

Which take do you prefer?

I like the one in the mono mix. I don’t really have an opinion about the acting job. They both are good, but the sound is better in the mono. It fits more smoothly into the mix and sound more natural. So that is really what makes the difference to me. Especially when Luke and Owen’s lines sound so natural.

As I said in my original post, I’ve spent a lot of time researching the ANH sound mixes. I knew a lot before I started digging into the details shared here on OT and now I know perhaps more than I want to. But TESB and ROTJ haven’t been through the same level of tinkering and don’t have nearly as many points of difference. It seems more than I thought, but still not very much. It looks like there are 3 or 4 edits of TESB, but only one for ROTJ. Before the SE that is.

Tack said:

There is no way that the Mono Mix is just a different take. That’s a whole new woman. Considering the rest of the audio errors the mix corrects, I bet they decided the original voice was just a bit off-sounding for her and decided to redub her entirely.

That makes me wonder something else… Considering the sheer amount of new ADR in the Mono Mix, is it at all possible that there was another recording session that took place after release?

There are some pitch differences, but the voice is the same. Since you bought it up, I even double checked it with her real voice (She was a principle in A Family At War which is out on DVD and some of the episodes are currently up on YouTube) and it is all the same person. The unique tones of her voice match in all three. And it isn’t just my ear, but several reports on the ADR sessions conducted by Ben Burtt confirm that it was Shelagh Fraser doing an American accent. Her American vs. British accents are very similar to Hugh Laurie’s.

When assembling the 5.1 audio for RotJ Despecialized v2.5, I noticed that the 1993 version for that film actually does contain two sound effects that are not present in the 1983 stereo mix.

The first is at the very beginning of the Dagobah scene, before it cuts to the interior of Yoda’s house: in the original mix, there is one sound of thunder in the distance, while the 1993 version has two.

The other added effect is at the end of the film, as the Millennium Falcon flies away from the exploding Death Star: in the original mix, the sound of the ship is heard in the front channels only, moving from center to right as it goes off-screen. The 1993 version has exactly the same front channel content, but adds the sound of the ship zooming into the rear channels as well.

I’m not sure exactly when these additional effects were introduced. Unlike the other two films, RotJ’s 1993 mix is not copied from an original master mix but was made from the separate stem recordings, so it is possible that these were present in the sound effects stems and not a deliberate change. Why then they would not be present in the 35mm stereo mix is unclear. Either they were added to the stems at the last minute and did not make it in time to be included in that version, or else they were present but deliberately muted. They might be in the 70mm version of Jedi, but since there is no copy of that available, there is no way to know.

More significant than either of these are some of the different mixing choices between the '83 and '93 versions. The '83 has the music consistently more prominent throughout most of the movie, especially when Han is unfrozen from carbonite and when Luke defeats Vader; although the '93 does have it louder in a few places, notably the Rancor scene and the Emperor’s arrival. There is some panned dialog in a couple spots in the original, but all dialog is completely centered in the remix. Finally, during the scene on Endor where Luke tells Leia how they are related, the sound of birds chirping is much more noticeable in the '93 remix. In the '83 stereo, it is present but quite subdued. Again, there is no way to know how it is in the 70mm version, although I expect that the 70mm resembles the 35mm more than the '93.

My version uses the 1993 for its dynamic range but I did insert the 35mm for Vader’s defeat, since the music sounds so much more glorious in that version. The unfreezing scene is still the '93, but increased in level during that section to make the music stand out more.

hairy_hen said:

When assembling the 5.1 audio for RotJ Despecialized v2.5, I noticed that the 1993 version for that film actually does contain two sound effects that are not present in the 1983 stereo mix.

The first is at the very beginning of the Dagobah scene, before it cuts to the interior of Yoda’s house: in the original mix, there is one sound of thunder in the distance, while the 1993 version has two.

The other added effect is at the end of the film, as the Millennium Falcon flies away from the exploding Death Star: in the original mix, the sound of the ship is heard in the front channels only, moving from center to right as it goes off-screen. The 1993 version has exactly the same front channel content, but adds the sound of the ship zooming into the rear channels as well.

I’m not sure exactly when these additional effects were introduced. Unlike the other two films, RotJ’s 1993 mix is not copied from an original master mix but was made from the separate stem recordings, so it is possible that these were present in the sound effects stems and not a deliberate change. Why then they would not be present in the 35mm stereo mix is unclear. Either they were added to the stems at the last minute and did not make it in time to be included in that version, or else they were present but deliberately muted. They might be in the 70mm version of Jedi, but since there is no copy of that available, there is no way to know.

More significant than either of these are some of the different mixing choices between the '83 and '93 versions. The '83 has the music consistently more prominent throughout most of the movie, especially when Han is unfrozen from carbonite and when Luke defeats Vader; although the '93 does have it louder in a few places, notably the Rancor scene and the Emperor’s arrival. There is some panned dialog in a couple spots in the original, but all dialog is completely centered in the remix. Finally, during the scene on Endor where Luke tells Leia how they are related, the sound of birds chirping is much more noticeable in the '93 remix. In the '83 stereo, it is present but quite subdued. Again, there is no way to know how it is in the 70mm version, although I expect that the 70mm resembles the 35mm more than the '93.

My version uses the 1993 for its dynamic range but I did insert the 35mm for Vader’s defeat, since the music sounds so much more glorious in that version. The unfreezing scene is still the '93, but increased in level during that section to make the music stand out more.

Good to know. That helps a lot. Sounds like for both TESB and ROTJ, there is the original theatrical and the 1993 mixes (plus the mono for TESB). I take it the 1985 mix for both films matches one of the other mixes and is extraneous.