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Nice call, Warbler

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Earlier today, while searching for a motorcycle post I made a few years ago, I stumbled onto a completely unrelated thread that caught my eye.

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/J-J-abrams-to-helm-Star-trek-Prequel/topic/5179/

Because it was a Skyjedi topic, I gave it a look to see what his thoughts were, so far in advance. It was just information and  a relatively short-lived discussion.

However, this post by Warb really jumped out at me;

I know they would never do it, but I think they need to take advice from DC comics and have a crissis of some kind that permanently changes the history of the Star Trek universe, restarts it and takes away all the s**t that has been added to it in the last 15 years....Don't do it on the cheap....Afterwards they would have a blank page to do any kind of series they wanted.

That is eerily close to the actual film they ended up making.  Good call, sir.

 

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As a long time Star Trek fan, I think they made the right call. The writers would've been saddled with so much baggage spread across all the previous series and films that doing anything fun or new while staying true to the existing material would've been next to impossible. With a new timeline, they can take the spirit of the original characters and send them on inspired new adventures that are worthy of, but not bound to, the preceding material. I really enjoyed the last film myself and can't wait for the next one.

I'm also incredibly jealous of Simon Pegg for being an unabashed geek who's totally living the dream. Imagine growing up loving this stuff and then being cast in such an iconic role. Lucky bastard.

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MTFBWY…A

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I suppose I was sort of correct.   But iirc, I what I suggested was:

  • that they bring all the series together.   TOS, Next Gen, DS9, Voy, and Enterprise, + Pike's Enterprise
  • give them a good enemy to fight, one worthy of having them all together to fight. 
  • get a great actor to play the villian
  • somehow involve the planet that Pike visited in original pilot: The Cage
  • get a great director to direct the thing
  • Don't do it on the cheap
  • get everyone involved to give maximum effort

 

They didn't do all of that, so I was not so eerily close.    But thanks anyway.

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Jay said:

As a long time Star Trek fan, I think they made the right call. The writers would've been saddled with so much baggage spread across all the previous series and films that doing anything fun or new while staying true to the existing material would've been next to impossible. With a new timeline, they can take the spirit of the original characters and send them on inspired new adventures that are worthy of, but not bound to, the preceding material. I really enjoyed the last film myself and can't wait for the next one.

I'm also incredibly jealous of Simon Pegg for being an unabashed geek who's totally living the dream. Imagine growing up loving this stuff and then being cast in such an iconic role. Lucky bastard.

Also a long time Trek fan and also agree on every point.  I didn't even bother with Nemesis, so I was really ready to get back to the spirit of the original characters, as you so eloquently put it. Which they did.

And yes, Pegg is living the dream, and doing a very fine job in the role.  I think he's perfect for it.  Those were some mighty big shoes to fill and he slipped into them nicely.

Warb, considering we knew absolutely nothing at that point, I still say it was eerily close to what they did - including having Pike as a main character.

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It's always interesting to see what grabs Jay enough to make him post.

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I'm always amazed when a self-professed Star Trek fan says he/she liked the last movie.  It's so far removed from what I think made the original and Next Generation Trek good (i.e., characters with depth, thought-provoking storylines that explored the human condition, etc.) that I can't fathom how any fan could have enjoyed this version, which was nothing but action-driven drivel with two dimensional characters.

I feel as though I should watch it again in order to give it a fair shake, but I can't help but feel I'll just come to the same conclusion.

“It’s a lot of fun… it’s a lot of fun to watch Star Wars.” – Bill Moyers

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corellian77 said:

I'm always amazed when a self-professed Star Trek fan says he/she liked the last movie.  It's so far removed from what I think made the original and Next Generation Trek good (i.e., characters with depth, thought-provoking storylines that explored the human condition, etc.) that I can't fathom how any fan could have enjoyed this version, which was nothing but action-driven drivel with two dimensional characters.

I feel as though I should watch it again in order to give it a fair shake, but I can't help but feel I'll just come to the same conclusion.

Reading this thread, those are pretty much the exact same thoughts I had. All the way down to feeling like I ought to watch it again.

I especially disagreed with the thoughts on Simon Pegg's Scotty. I love Pegg, but I don't feel like he even remotely captured Scotty. Scotty was a comic relief character, and Pegg's Scotty definitely tried to play the comic relief role, but I feel the relation ends there. To me the character felt like Simon Pegg on screen doing an extended Scotty impression, while not even managing to be that much like Scotty.

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corellian77 said:

I'm always amazed when a self-professed Star Trek fan says he/she liked the last movie.  It's so far removed from what I think made the original and Next Generation Trek good (i.e., characters with depth, thought-provoking storylines that explored the human condition, etc.) that I can't fathom how any fan could have enjoyed this version, which was nothing but action-driven drivel with two dimensional characters.

You're comparing 50 years' worth of plot lines and characterization to one 2-hour movie that had to:

  • Attract and entertain a wide audience
  • Make enough money to justify sequels
  • Jumpstart a franchise that was on life support
  • Please diehard fans


I'm watching through TOS (again), and I have some news...these aren't terribly deep characters. And it took them 3 seasons to get as far as they did. I'd argue that most of these characters didn't achieve appreciable depth until Wrath of Khan. TNG took 3 seasons to really hit its stride, and then spent 4 more seasons building out the characters.

Is the last Trek movie everything to all people? Absolutely not. But it was a solid introduction to refreshing new versions of our favorite characters and a good springboard into new stories. It was entertaining and it made money. We're going to get more Trek films now, and I'm sure they'll get better. In my estimation, it was a smashing success.

 

CP3S said:

Scotty was a comic relief character, and Pegg's Scotty definitely tried to play the comic relief role, but I feel the relation ends there. To me the character felt like Simon Pegg on screen doing an extended Scotty impression, while not even managing to be that much like Scotty.

Scotty had his moments as comic relief, but in TOS, he was frequently in the hot seat during life-and-death situations and was often left in command (and portrayed as very decisive and capable) while Kirk, Spock, and Bones went off to do whatever.

Also keep in mind that the latest film's Enterprise is a ship commanded and manned by recent grads. These are kids, not seasoned veterans. Some goofy antics and shenanigans should be expected.

 

TV's Frink said:

It's always interesting to see what grabs Jay enough to make him post.

I love me some Trek.

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Warbler said:

 

I suppose I was sort of correct.   But iirc, I what I suggested was:

  • that they bring all the series together.   TOS, Next Gen, DS9, Voy, and Enterprise, + Pike's Enterprise
  • give them a good enemy to fight, one worthy of having them all together to fight. 
  • get a great actor to play the villian
  • somehow involve the planet that Pike visited in original pilot: The Cage
  • get a great director to direct the thing
  • Don't do it on the cheap
  • get everyone involved to give maximum effort

 

They didn't do all of that, so I was not so eerily close.    But thanks anyway.

It's probably long out of print, but a collected edition of DC Trek comics I was given to read once while recovering from an illness had a kick ass story. It bridged the end of the five year mission and the first film. Pike and Talos IV were also involved. If you can find it, it's a great read!

For the all too brief time Marvel had the license, they put out a good Pike era comic.

Where were you in '77?

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SilverWook said:

It's probably long out of print, but a collected edition of DC Trek comics I was given to read once while recovering from an illness had a kick ass story. It bridged the end of the five year mission and the first film. Pike and Talos IV were also involved. If you can find it, it's a great read!

For the all too brief time Marvel had the license, they put out a good Pike era comic.

 

 

Was this It?  

 

Edit:

 

or this one?

 

“First feel fear, then get angry. Then go with your life into the fight.” - Bill Mollison

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Jay said:

CP3S said:

Scotty was a comic relief character, and Pegg's Scotty definitely tried to play the comic relief role, but I feel the relation ends there. To me the character felt like Simon Pegg on screen doing an extended Scotty impression, while not even managing to be that much like Scotty.

Scotty had his moments as comic relief, but in TOS, he was frequently in the hot seat during life-and-death situations and was often left in command (and portrayed as very decisive and capable) while Kirk, Spock, and Bones went off to do whatever.

Also keep in mind that the latest film's Enterprise is a ship commanded and manned by recent grads. These are kids, not seasoned veterans. Some goofy antics and shenanigans should be expected.

Poor wording on my part saying, "Scotty was a comic relief character". I didn't mean to suggest that was all he was there for in TOS, just that he was often the source of some of the more humorous lines in the series.

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FanFiltration said:

SilverWook said:

It's probably long out of print, but a collected edition of DC Trek comics I was given to read once while recovering from an illness had a kick ass story. It bridged the end of the five year mission and the first film. Pike and Talos IV were also involved. If you can find it, it's a great read!

For the all too brief time Marvel had the license, they put out a good Pike era comic.

 

 

Was this It?  

 

Edit:

 

or this one?

 

Definitely the first one, but it was part of a large softcover collected edition when I read it. It set things up for the movie so well, it could have been the prequel!

I forgot Walter Koenig wrote an issue!

Where were you in '77?

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I thought it was a pretty average Star Trek film, as entertaining and silly as Nemesis, (the plot is practically the same which is ironic as it is itself a remake of TWOK) which had pretty much no connection to anything remotely Star Trek that had gone before.

It's a timeline where only Enterprise remains unaltered.

Why bother calling it Star Trek at all...?

It's New Coke only this time the right critics were paid for it's selling well.

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This old school Trekker liked it. I got misty eyed when Nimoy showed up. I think the sequel is going to be huge, and I've got an inkling who the villain is. (And it's not Khan.)

I mentioned New Coke to someone recently, only to be met with a blank stare. ;)

Where were you in '77?

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Anchorhead said:


Earlier today, while searching for a motorcycle post I made a few years ago
I'm going to ignore the debate and say we need a motorcycle thread, so I can share my new baby on it!

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Also keep in mind that the latest film's Enterprise is a ship commanded and manned by recent grads. These are kids, not seasoned veterans. Some goofy antics and shenanigans should be expected.

Sigh, don't remind me.  I found that to be one of the most abhorrent elements.  I felt like I was watching Muppet Babies in Space, and Pike was one pair of striped socks away from being Barbara Billingsley.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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I've always considered myself a life-long Trek fan. I watched TOS and TNG religiously, though I never particularly cared for the other spinoffs (DS9, Voyager, Enterprise), or followed them beyond catching an episode here or there. As for the movies, I loved the even-numbered TOS-era films, and despised the odd-numbered installments. Couldn't stand a single one of the TNG-era films.

As for 2009's Star Trek, I really liked it, mainly for all the reasons that Jay articulated above, so I won't bother retreading old ground, except to say this: Any remake is going to run into problems pleasing the purists (though this particular self-styled purist was pleased). But I think the key is to avoid trampling on the spirit of the original, rather than trying to adhere rigidly to its every intricate detail (which would've been impossible in this case, anyway). As for whether or not Star Trek achieved that, obviously there will be disagreements. In my judgment, it certainly did; I did not receive the impression that it was a gimmicky cash-grab or executed in poor taste.

Every 27th customer will get a ball-peen hammer, free!

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the only real problem I had with the 2009 movie was the Spock/Uhura relationship.  It seems very out of character for a logical and unemotional Vulcan. 

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Akwat Kbrana said:

Any remake is going to run into problems pleasing the purists (though this particular self-styled purist was pleased). But I think the key is to avoid trampling on the spirit of the original, rather than trying to adhere rigidly to its every intricate detail (which would've been impossible in this case, anyway).

That is actually the part of it that bugged me the most. I am in no way a Star Trek purist, and to date there is no series of the show I have seen every episode of. But I feel like they kind of did trample the spirit of the original. Honestly, what is the bigger kick in the teeth to a franchise? Rebooting it to resell it to a new generation of fans? Or making events take place in the story that make everything you watched before cease to have happened, in order to resell it to a new generation of fans?

I feel like a straight reboot would have been perfectly appropriate, and a bit less messy. Nobody ever felt the need to tie Burton's Batman in with Nolan's, because it wasn't necessary. Both films co-exist happily with one another, adaptions made for different generations.

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Warbler said:

the only real problem I had with the 2009 movie was the Spock/Uhura relationship.  It seems very out of character for a logical and unemotional Vulcan. 

They had to show him get green in the face about some lady of the opposite sex or the kids might think he is a whale.

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Warbler said:


the only real problem I had with the 2009 movie was the Spock/Uhura relationship.  It seems very out of character for a logical and unemotional Vulcan. 
HALF-Vulcan.

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*whispers* You are supposed to call them Vulcan Terrestrials now.

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doubleofive said:

 

Warbler said:


the only real problem I had with the 2009 movie was the Spock/Uhura relationship.  It seems very out of character for a logical and unemotional Vulcan. 
HALF-Vulcan.

 

so?  He is still supposed to be logical and unemotional.   The original Spock was also half-Vulcan.   He never engaged in a relationship. 

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Warbler said:


doubleofive said:

Warbler said:
the only real problem I had with the 2009 movie was the Spock/Uhura relationship.  It seems very out of character for a logical and unemotional Vulcan. 

HALF-Vulcan.
so?  He is still supposed to be logical and unemotional.   The original Spock was also half-Vulcan.   He never engaged in a relationship. 
Exactly. This Spock isn't as afraid of his human side.

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