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My review of Episode III (minor, minor spoilers) — Page 4

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Interesting...when Palpatine mentions Anakin's attack on the Tuskens, there's a Tusken yell in the background. Nice!

"-I didn't hear a Screaming Wilhelm...did anyone else?"

"Yes, there was one. I can't remember the scene. I just remember hearing it and thinking, "ah, there's our boy, Willie!"

After Anakin tries to get Obi-wan off the ground, and tells Palps "His fate will be the same as ours". Grievous tells "All batteries fire". During this gunfire, a gun explodes and you hear the Wilhelm.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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How did the Jedi allow the Dark Side to cloud their vision or weaken their powers, after what I believe is years and years of a void in Sith? I'm not much up on the EU, but I would call it being arrogant to overlook the growing threat of Sith. If the light in your flashlight start to go dim, you darn sure better do everything you can to find out if it is the wiring, the bulb or the batteries and fix the problem. I am sure it wasn't just one day the Jedi were weak. They had to have known their was a problem, and in knowing that, if they had taken the time to look, I would have to believe even in the early stages they would have had the power to sense the Sith just down the street.

In the vein of arrogance, they believed Anakin was dangerous and that he could spell trouble. But as you can see in this film, he is probably the most powerful Jedi alive. He is heralded as a great warrior, pilot and swordsman. While his Jedi powers may not be as strong as Yoda's (which is to be seen), he is obviously in the upper level. So why allow for the possibilty of exclusion when it comes to Anakin? Why create an situation that could create an enemy out of a friend. As far as the war went, he was their equal, he lead excursions equaling that of any member of the council. He had every reason to be on that council as much as anyone, yet they treated him as if they were above him. Was he dangerous? Yes, but if they had not made him feel as such an outsider of what truly was going on, he would have not felt deceieved and his fate may have been different.

Thanks for bringing up Qui Gon, of which we don't get delivered...jerk!
The Jedi are all but extinct.......
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"How did the Jedi allow the Dark Side to cloud their vision or weaken their powers"

"Allow"? Where do you get that reasoning from? The Jedi had no idea how it was happening.

"you darn sure better do everything you can to find out if it is the wiring, the bulb or the batteries and fix the problem."

Where did you want them to look? They went to Naboo. They went to Kamino. They went to Geonosis. They went everywhere they could to find the answers they needed, and yet you still say they did nothing.

Explain what the right thing would have been?

"I am sure it wasn't just one day the Jedi were weak. They had to have known their was a problem, and in knowing that, if they had taken the time to look, I would have to believe even in the early stages they would have had the power to sense the Sith just down the street."

It's apparently been going on for some time, and your knowledge of the use of the Force to sense the Sith is based on what? Palpatine didn't sense Luke at Endor, remember?

Furthermore,
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"The dark side, for all its power, is ultimately hard to detect when required. A shadowy master like Darth Sidious was able to keep his presence a secret, even when sharing a world with the Jedi." - OS: The Sith

Again, Force use isn't perfect for Jedi or Sith, and your reasoning of what can be done with the Force doesn't jive with the films or official sources. You can't make the Force something it isn't, and then blame the Jedi for not using it as such.

"So why allow for the possibilty of exclusion when it comes to Anakin? Why create an situation that could create an enemy out of a friend. As far as the war went, he was their equal, he lead excursions equaling that of any member of the council. He had every reason to be on that council as much as anyone, yet they treated him as if they were above him. Was he dangerous? Yes, but if they had not made him feel as such an outsider of what truly was going on, he would have not felt deceieved and his fate may have been different."

And how were they to know that this would make him fall to the Sith and come back to destroy them? You expect the Jedi to be aware of consequences that you and I have known of since 1977. How fair is that? I think you are trying a little too hard to make your "arrogance" argument stick in this regard. Let's not forget how much Palpatine encouraged Anakin's own arrogance. Take Palps out of the picture, and Anakin would not have wiped out the Jedi (or, as some people appear to believe, he would never have been born. )

For the record, I thought taking Qui-gon out of ROTS was a stupid idea as well.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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"Lucas should have built the prequels around the books and the original trilogy instead of tryibng to rape the original in favor of the prequels."

As I watch ROTS, I recall a Prequel point that Lucas rewrote for the Prequels. In ROTS, Anakin said that there's never been a Jedi on the Council who was not a Jedi Master. In TPM, the background for Ki-Adi Mundi was that he was one of the few Jedi who was not a master, and yet served on the Council. Obviously, that little factoid had to be rewritten for Anakin's line to be true.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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I thought Anakin deliberately ignored that fact in his anger. And Obi-Wan chose to comfort him, instead of telling him he was wrong about being the first council member not to be elevated to the rank of master.
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Or it was Lucas forgetting something he had already established. Master Sifo-Dyas' explanation works well though.....


Made for IE Forum's Episode III theme month - May 2005.

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Neither. Here's his bio from the OS. Notice anything missing?

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Ki-Adi-Mundi was an alien representative who sat on the Jedi Council. A humanoid being, Ki's most distinguishing physical feature was an enlarged conical cranium that contained a binary brain.

When Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn reported a Sith attack during the events surrounding the Battle of Naboo, Ki-Adi-Mundi expressed shock at the notion. "Impossible," he remarked, "the Sith have been extinct for a millennium."

For its failure to detect the Sith menace in time, the Jedi first suffered the loss of one its greatest masters, Qui-Gon Jinn. Ki-Adi-Mundi voyaged to Naboo to attend Jinn's somber funeral, and was also present at the jubilant celebration that marked the liberation of Naboo.

A decade later, Jedi Master Ki-Adi-Mundi continued to serve on the Council. He was present during one of the gravest crises ever to face the Jedi order: the Separatist movement that threatened to split the Republic. Like most in the order, Ki-Adi-Mundi refused to believe that the movement's architect, former Jedi Count Dooku, was behind its more violent actions. As a political idealist trained in Jedi philosophies, such acts would be beneath Dooku, Ki-Adi-Mundi reasoned.

Ki-Adi-Mundi was not the only Jedi to be mistaken about Dooku's limits. The former Jedi oversaw the scheduled execution of Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker and Senator Padmé Amidala. The sudden arrival of a Jedi taskforce -- including Ki-Adi-Mundi -- rescued the three captives. Ki-Adi-Mundi and several of his fellow Jedi Council members did battle with Geonosian and Separatist droid forces. While the Jedi were prepared to handle the Geonosians, they were surprised by the immensity of the Separatist droid army. Many Jedi died that day, though Ki-Adi-Mundi was one of the survivors.

When Republic reinforcements arrived, Ki-Adi-Mundi hopped aboard a Republic gunship, and later led units of clone troopers into the thick of combat. The war-scorched flats of Geonosis became the first battleground of the devastating Clone Wars.OS


It's not under EU or BTS either.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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wow, just read 2 and a half pages of posts to catch up since last time i read this thread.

Just have a few comments/points/responses to make to various different posts.

First, I think a major point is being missed here. Palpatine is one conniving sob, hes sneaking and manipulative. He manipulates just about everyone throught the course of the PT (and actually the OT if you think about it)

first he uses the trade federation to blockade Naboo. Remember Palps is senator of Naboo at this point, so he obviously knows Padme, and knows how she will react. He then uses her to get the Current Chancellor booted from office so he can take over. I forget the group that he said was the real control over the senate (the group that was always with Valorum on his podium, and was later with Palps after he became chancellor, suprise, they were Palps 'minions'), who was controlling Valorum, but who was controlling them? Darth Sidious aka Palpatine. I agree that Valorum was actually not corrupt, but was in fact powerless because Palpatine already had people in place that were in positions that he was able to use them to tie up things in the Senate, therefore allowing him to convince Padme that the current Chancellor was indeed ineffective and unable to do anything (which in truth he was, but for different reasons)

then, in Episode II he gets padme off the planet for the vote of creating the army. He uses Jar-Jar, the gungan representative from naboo and not the brightest bulb of the bunch, to motion to give the Chancellor 'emergency powers' Jar-Jar is lead to believe that this is what Padme would have done, and since he's an idiot he does it thinking he is doing something for the greater good.

the seperatist, who do you think was leading the seperatists? Dooku? Grevious? Nope, it was Sidious also know as Palpatine. Remember he's pulling Dooku and Grevious' strings, he's really in charge of the Seperatist movement. And Palps doesnt care about them, hes using them to start his war, the war he will use to establish himself as emperor. Think about it. Seperatists win Palps is in charge. Clone Army wins, Palps is already controlling them, so he's still in charge. Its a win-win situation as far as palpatine is concerened. Is only real enemy is the Jedi, who havent been able to identify him as the Sith Master yet because he is clouding the force, manipulating it so they cant detect his presence.

and then he manipulates Anakin, tells him what he wants to hear, how to save Padme. and all that good stuff to turn him to the dark side.

he's manipulative, he's evil, he uses people to acheive his own goals.

like has been said, seeing the future with the force (or even sensing things) isnt 100% accurate, even for someone using the Dark Side, so Palpatine didnt quite forsee everything, Like the Jedi being sent to Naboo (though i would think that would be a logical event seeing as they are the protectors of peace) But either way, Palps isnt dumb, he modifies his plan accordingly (if its for the best dont know, ultimatly he succeeds in taking over the senate/republic so it works) and makes a decision and goes with it (he'd actually probably make a good business leader, or a political leader if he wasnt so evil ) You dont think he's not gonna check up on his 'forseeing the future' after these changes and possibly make further modifications.

as far as Farther-less Anakin (does that make him a bastard?) and Palps or Plagueous having created him. Just because they (Palps, Plague, or both) created him doesnt mean they were aware of the Prophecy, or doing it to fullfill the prophecy. Maybe they were doing it to create an 'Uber' Sith to destroy all the Jedi. Maybe they were trying to fullfill a Sith prophecy and not the Jedi prophecy that the Council speaks of. Maybe Plagueous created Anakin before Palps killed him (im convinced Plagueous was Palps master and go on that assumption) and Palps knew nothing about it. Maybe Even with his use of the Dark Side, Plagueous was really just a nice guy and just wanted to have a son and settle down or actually restore peice to the galaxy, but just felt that he could 'control' the dark side and gain its power and use it for good.

one last thing (i think) as far as Sifo-Dyas goes. Didnt Obi-Wan say that Sifo Dyas was killed before the Kaminos said he ordered the the clone army? Did Sifo-Dyas turn to the dark side? Was Sifo-Dyas Darth Plagueous? Did Palpatine use Sifo-Dyas' name to order the Clone army? Did Oswald really kill Kennedy? we may never learn the truth...but someone out there does know...

*edit*
one other thing, Anakins 'appointment' to the Council and not being made a master. While he might have been equal (or above) to the other Jedi in power/ability that does not in any way (at least in my opinion) make him ready to be a master. I dont know what the trials are, the clone wars cartoon hints that anakin has essentially gone through the same tests as the trials would put him through, but i feel that the Jedi Council's reason for not making him a master was because he was emotionally not ready. I mean you have to (well you dont have to but i think its pretty obvious) his head is a little (by little i mean much) too big for his shoulders. Making him a master would only fuel his already present arrogance. Sure it gives Palpatine some leverage to turn him against the Jedi, but remember thats what he does, he uses peoples weaknesses to manipulate them. The Jedi Council/Masters are wise (despite making a few mistakes, or possibly missing warning signs, they are still a lot more experienced and knowledgable than Anakin was) and generally know what is best. And while they were in a very tough spot with the war going on and all, i think ultimatly had Palpatine not been tempting/manipulating Anakin, the decision they made would have been best for him (and even with the manipulation it was probably still best, because not being made a Master was only one of Anakins gripes). Anakin was essentially young/immature/self centered, and needed to grow out of this to truely become the most powerful Jedi ever, unfortunatly Palpatine got to him before he could and thus Anaking wasnt able to overcome the Temptation of the Dark Side as we see Luke do in ROTJ.

-Darth Simon
Why Anakin really turned to the dark side:
"Anakin, You're father I am" - Yoda
"No. No. That's not true! That's impossible!" - Anakin

0100111001101001011011100110101001100001

*touchy people disclaimer*
some or all of the above comments are partially exaggerated to convey a point, none of the comments are meant as personal attacks on anyone mentioned or reference in the above post
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as far as Farther-less Anakin (does that make him a bastard?) and Palps or Plagueous having created him. Just because they (Palps, Plague, or both) created him doesnt mean they were aware of the Prophecy, or doing it to fullfill the prophecy. Maybe they were doing it to create an 'Uber' Sith to destroy all the Jedi. Maybe they were trying to fullfill a Sith prophecy and not the Jedi prophecy that the Council speaks of. Maybe Plagueous created Anakin before Palps killed him (im convinced Plagueous was Palps master and go on that assumption) and Palps knew nothing about it. Maybe Even with his use of the Dark Side, Plagueous was really just a nice guy and just wanted to have a son and settle down or actually restore peice to the galaxy, but just felt that he could 'control' the dark side and gain its power and use it for good.

Okay, first of all: If they wanted to make an uberly strong Sith, they would have kept him and trained him. Not dumped him on some random planet. He would have stayed by Palps/Plagueous' side all his life.

Second: Plagueous could not have created Anakin. Plagueous lived a long time ago, and if he had created Anakin, he'd be much older in TPM. He would not be a little kid.

So, the only two reasons you mentioned can't be true.

Also, I'm aware that Palps was manipulating things to his advantage, I'm just saying there is no way he could have manipulated things with the Jedi finding Anakin and Anakin being trained by Obi-wan ect, ect.

You see?
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I agree that its pretty far fetched that he would have been able to manipulate it to that degree, but that doesnt mean that it wasnt what lucas was trying to imply.

also, remember Palps never really comes out and says, 'Plagueous was my master, i killed him after he tought me all he knows? Oh, hey want me to teach all that stuff to you and then you can kill me?' so is it not possible that he pushed the time of the story back? besides, an anecdotal story like that that takes place long ago serves Palpatines purpose better than, 'About 10 years ago, my master....'

Its possible that Plagueous created Anakin without Palpatine knowing, so when Palps killed Plagueous the knowledge of Anakin's origin died with him. Palps may have put 2 and 2 together if he knew that Anakin was 'fatherless' but as far as we know, not even Anakin is aware of this (we can only confirm that Shmi and Qui-Gon know this if im not mistaken)

the planet isnt necessarily random/remote to Plagueous, and if he died before Anakin was born then it makes sense that he wasnt by Plagueous' side all his life. If that is how it played out, im sure once he was born, Plagueous would have taken Anakin to train.

and remember, the Force has its own agenda so to speak, there are lines in the OT about it 'guiding us' and bringing people together and stuff like that, so it simply (or could have) guided Qui-Gon et al to Tatooine to find Anakin.

-Darth Simon

ps, i added some comments to my previous post about Anakin being appointed to the Jedi Council, so glance back up there if you read it before then.
Why Anakin really turned to the dark side:
"Anakin, You're father I am" - Yoda
"No. No. That's not true! That's impossible!" - Anakin

0100111001101001011011100110101001100001

*touchy people disclaimer*
some or all of the above comments are partially exaggerated to convey a point, none of the comments are meant as personal attacks on anyone mentioned or reference in the above post
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That's all a moot point.

Obi wan first met Anakin as an adult during the clone wars, and he was amazed at how strong the force was with him. He decided to take it upon himself to train him as a Jedi, just as Yoda had trained him in the past, NOT by Qui Gon Jin, who didn't bloody exist. He thought he could instruct as well as Yoda, but Anakin eventually went over to the dark side because Obi Wan wasn't nearly as good an instructor as he thought.

///
Fine, mister Lucas, while you're at it why dont you replace Lando with will smith?
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"Just because they (Palps, Plague, or both) created him doesnt mean they were aware of the Prophecy, or doing it to fullfill the prophecy."

Yet Anakin showed all the signs of being the Chosen One at a young age. If Sidious wasn't aware of the prophecy, then he didn't know everything there was to know, which is mandatory for his 10-year-plan to work as flawlessly as it did.

Sorry, but he can't be perfect for the one-in-a-million shot and yet be imperfect on the day-to-day stuff. That simply defies belief.

"Didnt Obi-Wan say that Sifo Dyas was killed before the Kaminos said he ordered the the clone army?"

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Yes, Master. They say a Master Sifo-Dyas
placed the order for a clone army at the request of the
Senate almost ten years ago. I was under the impression he
was killed before that. Did the Council ever authorize the
creation of a clone army?


As a matter of, he did, which is another reason why the LOE explanation is ridiculous. Dooku happened upon the one Jedi who secretly ordered the clones without the Council's knowledge? That's just stupid. It makes far more sense for Dooku to kill and impersonate Sifo for the clone order, and then blame it on the Jedi. This also fits into the general timeline implied by Obi-wan's statement to the Council.

Oh well.

"One other thing, Anakins 'appointment' to the Council and not being made a master. While he might have been equal (or above) to the other Jedi in power/ability that does not in any way (at least in my opinion) make him ready to be a master. I dont know what the trials are, the clone wars cartoon hints that anakin has essentially gone through the same tests as the trials would put him through, but i feel that the Jedi Council's reason for not making him a master was because he was emotionally not ready."

I agree with you. What the Council should have done is explain to Anakin that while Palpatine had placed him on the Council, it was not done so according to Jedi rules, and therefore his placement was provisional (kinda like a battlefield promotion.) Anakin wasn't ready for the council....though again, this reaction is precisely what Palpatine was planning on.

"Second: Plagueous could not have created Anakin. Plagueous lived a long time ago, and if he had created Anakin, he'd be much older in TPM. He would not be a little kid."

Ironically, I am mixed on this. I'll have to watch again, but I was under the impression that Palpatine said that he was Plagueous' apprentice. Everything I've read about Palpatine states that he is a "normal" human being, meaning no super-aging, and yet he said Plagueous' story was a legend told by the Jedi?

Was this also made up? I'm guessing so, but it just seems rather wonky to me.

"Its possible that Plagueous created Anakin without Palpatine knowing"

Sorry, but the folks who keep bring this up need to learn the difference between what's "possible" and what is "probable". Hell, I could easily say it's "possible" that Plageous created Palpatine by influencing midis, or that Palpatine created Jar Jar as such.

Point being, anything's possible, but simply pointing that out does not make it in any way probable. It's a ridiculous addition to speculate that Palpatine might have created Anakin, and it doesn't gel with the rest of the Saga either. It kinda reminds me of all the Cloners who showed how it was "possible" for Palpatine to be a clone of Sidious.

" That's all a moot point.

Obi wan first met Anakin as an adult during the clone wars, and he was amazed at how strong the force was with him. He decided to take it upon himself to train him as a Jedi, just as Yoda had trained him in the past, NOT by Qui Gon Jin, who didn't bloody exist. He thought he could instruct as well as Yoda, but Anakin eventually went over to the dark side because Obi Wan wasn't nearly as good an instructor as he thought."

Then your issue is with the OT, not the PT.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Yes Kam: you're absolutely correct. I find your attempts at blocking all memories of the prequels to be admirable. However, in my alternate reality, the prequels still exist.

Someone said earlier that Lucas himself has touted the "virgin birth" idea in interviews. It's important to see that the virgin birth notion remains intact if you throw Sith into the mix. And just because the Sith manipulate the birth doesn't mean that Anakin was 100% dark side of the force.

Yoda himself acknowledges that the Jedi misinterpreted the original prophesy. The Sith likely knew how the Jedi were reading the prophesy and saw an opportunity within.

As for Darth Plagueis' age ... hate to tell 'ya this, but if the Sith history ain't in a movie, it didn't happen. Look how much of the Phantom Menace novelization is irrelevant in light of the films that followed Phanton Menace (re: Padme didn't lead an army against Anakin). Either way, if he trained Palps, then he could have been the sith who engineered Anakin's birth.

I hate geeking over details like this when there are so many other gaping plotholes in Revenge of the Sith. Plus, it's what Lucas wanted -- people quibbling over silly details that are neither creatively deep nor meaningful. In that, there's just no way Lucas would have tossed out this idea if he didn't mean it. The Sith manipulating the birth of Anakin fits their MO perfectly ... and I doubt Palps was lying in this one instance.




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First, just want to make it clear, a lot of these points i havent sorted out/formed an opinion on whats going on which is my point in bringing up all the possiblities for discussion. To help me evaluate all the points and decide how i want to interperate it. So by no means am I stating these as facts, more as theories to be evaluated.

with that said...

I think my point about a (possible) Jedi Prophecy vs. a Sith Prophecy still stands. While Sidious is aware of the the Jedi prophecy, he is working to fullfill the Sith one. Also, i think its apparent that Anakin does end up fullfuilling the Jedi prophecy just not as smoothly as the Jedi thought.

second, im not sure on what you mean by the LOE explanation. However, why does Dooku have to be the one who discovered the Clone army (is this the LOE explanation, and did i miss this post?). Also, while it does make sense for Dooku to kill and impersonate Sifo. Doesnt it make more sense that Palpatine (as Sidious) manipulated Dooku, told him of the clone army, used him to further his plans. we've already established that Palpatine manipulates anyone and everyone if it will further his goals. Plus, Dooku was suprised at the speed that the Jedi/Republic came up with an army at the end of AOTC, which implies he had no knowledge of the Clone Army.

Plagueous' age: umm, how does it not happen if its not in the movie. especially since it is in the movie because Palpatine tells the story of it.

Kam, Obi-Wan never said he first met Anakin as an adult or during the clone wars. He said (from the script of ANH i foun online, draft 4)

Quote
BEN: He was the best star-pilot in the galaxy, and a cunning warrior.
I understand you've become quite a good pilot yourself. And he was a
good friend. Which reminds me...


and from ROTJ draft 2

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BEN
When I first knew him, your father was
already a great pilot. But I was amazed how
strongly the Force was with him. I took it
upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I
thought that I could instruct him just as
well as Yoda. I was wrong. My pride has
had terrible consequences for the galaxy.


unless i missed something Obi-Wan never said how old Anakin was when they met, or that they met during the war. Just that he was a good pilot/warrior (which i guess you could infer means it was during the war, but isnt necessarily the case)

some people speak of the OT as though it was flawless and didnt contain any contridictions or plot holes until the PT came around which im sure isnt true. The whole father/son brother/sister thing as it stands in the OT can be considered somewhat shaky if you think about it.

-Darth Simon
Why Anakin really turned to the dark side:
"Anakin, You're father I am" - Yoda
"No. No. That's not true! That's impossible!" - Anakin

0100111001101001011011100110101001100001

*touchy people disclaimer*
some or all of the above comments are partially exaggerated to convey a point, none of the comments are meant as personal attacks on anyone mentioned or reference in the above post
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Originally posted by: Darth Simon

Kam, Obi-Wan never said he first met Anakin as an adult or during the clone wars. He said (from the script of ANH i foun online, draft 4)

Quote
BEN: He was the best star-pilot in the galaxy, and a cunning warrior.
I understand you've become quite a good pilot yourself. And he was a
good friend. Which reminds me...


and from ROTJ draft 2

Quote
BEN
When I first knew him, your father was
already a great pilot. But I was amazed how
strongly the Force was with him. I took it
upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I
thought that I could instruct him just as
well as Yoda. I was wrong. My pride has
had terrible consequences for the galaxy.


unless i missed something Obi-Wan never said how old Anakin was when they met, or that they met during the war. Just that he was a good pilot/warrior (which i guess you could infer means it was during the war, but isnt necessarily the case)

some people speak of the OT as though it was flawless and didnt contain any contridictions or plot holes until the PT came around which im sure isnt true. The whole father/son brother/sister thing as it stands in the OT can be considered somewhat shaky if you think about it.

-Darth Simon


Even at that, as far as ObiWan knows, Anakin destroyed the Trade Federation ship using skill, not alittle bit of luck. That, and he knew of the Pod Race win (ugh!) that had never been done by a human, I believe.
The Jedi are all but extinct.......
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"Yoda himself acknowledges that the Jedi misinterpreted the original prophesy"

might have misinterpreted it.

"hate to tell 'ya this, but if the Sith history ain't in a movie, it didn't happen."

I guess no one goes to the bathroom in AGFFA as well? Was Padme's pregnancy also a "virgin birth", too? I don't remember them consumating their marriage.

Point being, don't confuse Lucas' tendency to rewrite backstories as proof that there are no backstories.

BTW, I'm listening to the film as I type, and Obi-wan says "Only a Sith believes in absolutes."

Isn't Obi-wan's own statement an absolute as well?

"second, im not sure on what you mean by the LOE explanation. However, why does Dooku have to be the one who discovered the Clone army (is this the LOE explanation, and did i miss this post?). Also, while it does make sense for Dooku to kill and impersonate Sifo. Doesnt it make more sense that Palpatine (as Sidious) manipulated Dooku, told him of the clone army, used him to further his plans."

Let me clarify. This is the LOE explanation, and I didn't mean to imply that Dooku did this on his own. He did so under Palp's orders. Now, I think we are on the same page.

"The whole father/son brother/sister thing as it stands in the OT can be considered somewhat shaky if you think about it."

Agreed.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Originally posted by: MeBeJedi
Was Padme's pregnancy also a "virgin birth", too? I don't remember them consumating their marriage.


Three years pass between AOTC and ROTS. Heck, the entire Clone Wars happened in that time. There's a lot of stuff we didn't see. The consummation of their marriage is just one of many times they may have hit the hey during a "conjugal wartime visit."
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
-------------------------
Kevin A
Webmaster/Primary Cynic
kapgar.typepad.com
kapgar.com
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My point being, this sex act wasn't "in" the film. It is simply backstory, so it can't really have taken place.

I just wanted to show this mindset taken to its logical, if absurd, conclusion. The movies aren't all that there it. Hell, they don't even mention Bossk's name.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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I guess no one goes to the bathroom in AGFFA as well? Was Padme's pregnancy also a "virgin birth", too? I don't remember them consumating their marriage.


That's not the point ... there was once a backstory about the Plagueus that would render him too old to have anything to do with Anakin. The backstory isn't reliable because it's not in the films ... the same way Owen is not Kenobi's brother even though that's what the original Return of the Jedi book said. The same way that renders Boba Fett's orginal backstory to be moot.
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Any backstory that isn't contradicted by the films is considered canon. This is the rule at LFL. You don't have to agree with it, and are welcome to believe as you wish, but you aren't going to change that fact at all. Just because something isn't in the films doesn't mean it can't be considered to have happened in the films. I recall many times that threads would pop up in TFn about common knowledge "facts" about the SW films that weren't in the films themselves. For example, the "imperial walkers" in ESB are actually AT-ATs.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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But any backstory CAN be and IS contradicted at ANY TIME! So much so that it's hardly worth following any of the backstories.
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"But any backstory CAN be and IS contradicted at ANY TIME! So much so that it's hardly worth following any of the backstories."

Let me point out the problem with your logic. The SE's and DVD's have shown that the films, themselves, can be trumped by newer films, so I guess it's hardly worth following the OOT as well? You might as well tell Bossk to give up his avatar and username, since his character's name CAN be contradicted at ANY TIME!

All stories and films can be trumped by newer canon. That does not mean that all stories are trumped, nor that all stories will be trumped. If your fear of the EU is that Lucas may change it, then I don't know what to tell you.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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LOL- this is great! I find myself getting swept up in reading this thread... and tend to forget that its ALL made up!

Despite what any of us thinks one way or another, the only *facts* of any of this are that a boy named George made up a story, made lots of money from that story, and made some more stories. He didn't care all that much what specifically happened in those stories as long as he was in control of them at some point and kept making money on them.

So while we (myself included) argue whose version of SW revisionist history is right or wrong and best or worst, George is smiling back at the ranch and sipping some wine with Francis Ford Coppola and Steven Speilberg.

PS: I think GL got the Obi-Wan's name 'Ben' from the picture of the man on the little green pieces of paper that his swimming pool is filled with.

PSS: I actually thought, at the time of TPM, that 'Sifo Dyas' was just a psuedonym for SID-I-OUS and that had been who ordered the clones some way or another.
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I might also point out that ESB rewrote the original "Anakin was killed by Vader" storyline, and ROTJ rewrote the "Leia is Luke's sister" storyline, so again, even in the OT, newer films can trump the older films. This being the case, maybe you should avoid everything Star Wars altogether.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Indeed, I DID give up trying to follow the backstories because there's no reason to. I don't own the new DVDs ... and I don't own any of the prequels on DVD. I do only consider the first three films to be "canon" at this point ... but since Sith is the newest attempt at murdering the magic of the original series, I'm willing to accept it for a week or two.