My Top 10 Reasons ROTJ sucks

Just finished the blu ray set. I wrote a blog about why ROTJ is the worst of the 6 movies.

http://peterjohnross.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=292

I will comment one at a time for these:

10. I do agree, it sounds reasonable, but the scene gets set for that moment.

9. I never pay attention to it

8. I've noticed it too. It could be better but doesn't ruin the movie for me

7. About Darth Vader, there were some small signs of him wondering if Luke was right. After Luke left him alone in the landing plateform catwalk, being the only one who could sense Luke on Endor, (even though palps said he had forseen it). One other one too i can't remember. But yea, if you look at all six movies you find that Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker was made out to be evil.

6. I can't stand the idea of Lando dying. I know there's some irony in that, but no. He can't die. it would ruin the movie for me, especially after i've seen it like, so many times i can't even count.

5. The Death Star II never bugged me. It wasn't the same trench run, pentrate the outter defence, watching from above while vader and his wingmen pick off ships one by one. I will say that i wished it was a little more intense. More ships blowing up, larger fleet. You know, aside from the Executor, you only see one Star destroyer blow up?

4. Wasn't it always meant for luke and leia to be bro and sis?

3. I remember this in Empire of Dreams. He was surprised and thought thta his character should of died. But a star wars movie without Han Solo, doesn't make it  star wars. PT exempt.

2. The Ewoks were a little cute for the movie. Why do you think they made the Battle Front games? I grew used to them though over time. But i've heard of the same argument to put wookies in, instead of Ewoks. And that that way Tarful can be reintroduced into the saga as well.

1. The "Certain Point Of View" conversation was, i thought also, kind of dumb. It just seemed like a quick easy conclusion to jump to. I would prefer the original draft.

I think his points were very well-articulated and supported, and yet I'm not surprised to see responses that amount to, "You're wrong, I don't care about the things that bother you and I think ROTJ is awesome!"

Obvious brushstrokes in a matte painting on an HD screen in 2011 is a valid criticism, especially when mattes have been selectively replaced elsewhere. The lack of dramatic tension is also a very valid point that he effectively supports, even referring to earlier drafts of the script to show how such issues could've been resolved.

"Doesn't make or break the movie."

Maybe not on his own, but then again, that wasn't his point. None of these criticisms on their own make or break the movie, but when considered all together, they form a pretty reasonable critique of the quality of ROTJ.

"2. Ewoks are awesome. Get over it."

What kind of response is that? You're just flaming the guy for articulating his opinion in an intelligent and reasonable way.

sonnyboo, thanks for sharing your review.

Based only on the acting hability of Mark Hamill to make bad dialogue to sound like they are shakespeareans (well, almost, lol): I would always vote ROTJ over any prequel.

Oh, and the story have something to tell, also. That's more than at least two of the prequels.

My problems with ROTJ:

Jabba the Hut

Don't get me wrong I like Jabba and it is important that we finally see him in the last movie. But the entire act felt like a movie within a movie. Its sole purpose was to get Han back to the group. Yes, in Star Wars there are the scenes with C3PO and R2D2 at the beginning and in ESB we got the battle at Hoth. But those scenes also established the main plot. They showed us the Empire and set the tone and main conflict. In ROTJ the entire first 40 minutes are just about saving Han and did not further contribute to the main plot. As a result the actual plot felt rushed.


Lack of dilema at the crisis moment of the movie

The crisis moment of the movie is when Luke had to choose whether he should kill the emporer and join the dark force or resist and stay true to his own believe of the force. This is no real dilemma, because it's a choice between good and bad. Since Luke is a good guy, there is no real question which one he will choose. Dilemmas require a desicion between two equally bad or equally good things.
Like in Star Wars when they were attacking the Death Star and Luke had to choose between using the technolgy of his x-wing or using the force. It's a choice between two equally things, because on the one hand his x-wing already failed to hit the Death Star and on the other hand he doesn't really know if this force thing will work out or not.
In ESB they complicated the crisis moment even more. When Vader revealed that he was Lukes father, Luke had to choose between joining the dark side or his believe in the force and between killing himself or survival. Note that these two desicions are again just plain simple desicions between good and bad. But since staying true the force means killing himself and survival requires joining the dark side, the combination of these two decisions is a true and compelling dilemma. <br />Why is it so bad that there is no real dilemma in ROTJ? Well, when we know which desicion the protagonist will take, than there is no tension in the movie. Which brings me to the next point.


Lack of tension and increase of complication.

What's so good about ESB is that they managed to further complicate the story of Luke becoming a jedi by just by telling us that Vader is his father, thus creating the most personal obstacle for Luke to overcome.
In ROTJ they not only failed to increase the complication, but also to keep the tension at the same level as in ESB. Just look at the Death Star II. We have already seen in Star Wars that our heros are able to inflitrate the Empire and to destroy there main base. There is no point in showing us the same thing again because we already expect the Rebels to win. Was there anyone wo really thought they won't destroy the Death Star this time? The same thing is true for the Battle at Endor. We have seen it before how Han, Leia and Chewie outthink some Stormtroppers and this time they had support by a army of bears thus decreasing the tension even more. Sure the Empire had some robots but it was not like they had to face a army like at the beginning of ESB.


Too much focus on Darth Vader

The movie also suffers from making Vader more important than he is. For example how the relationship between Luke and Vader is handled. During the confrontation scene at Endor Luke seems more mature than Vader. In fact Vader is the one who is more effected by their relationship. This draws to much attention to Vader because Vader being Lukes father is something that should complicate the life of the protagonist not the antagonist.
But what really hurts Lukes story arc is the fact that he got saved because of Vader. Vader is the Deus Ex Machina for Luke. Vader is the one who must take a desicion at the climax of the story, which is wrong because the story is about Luke and not Vader. He is the one who has to face a real dilemma because he must decide between staying loyal to the emporer and killing his son or saving his son but betray the dark side. For Vader this is a dilemma, because up to this point the dark side was something good for him. That Vader has the last saying is just wrong from a storytelling perspective. It's Lukes story so he must take the desicion at the storys most suspensful point. He did it in Star Wars when he had to decide between technology and the force. He did it in ESB when he had to decide between joining the dark side or killing himself. But he hadn't to choose at the climax of ROTJ that not only should bring closure to the movie but also to his story arc of the entire OT? That makes no sense.


It doesn't feel like Star Wars.

Okay this is a personal point but to me ROTJ just doesn feel like a Star Wars movie. This is because there is a tone shift to give it his own feeling. ESB also has this tone shift but it still feels like a Star Wars movie. Two thing of the tone in ROTJ that bother me. It is too sexual and it has too many wierd aliens. Before you call me prude, there is just one thing that is too sexual for me and that is Leias dress at the beginning. It just does't feel right to me because this revealing dress draws associations that just don't belong to Star Wars. Star Wars was always some fairy tale in space and not a celebration of dirty fantasies. I'm just speaking of the OT of course.
Another thing are the many different creatures. Star Wars and ESB had aliens too but they were just in the background and said some one liners. In ROTJ the entire first 40 minute is full of aliens. And after that we got the Rebels who all of the sudden got more aliens than before. My point is that in ROTJ there are so many aliens that they are drawing to much attention to themself. You know in Star Wars and ESB there were just enough aliens to tell us that there is a greater universe going on. In ROTJ they shoved so many creatures in the movie that I started to ask myself why these things are in the movie, what is their contribution the the plot?

If it said "the worst of the THREE movies", I would maybe read it.
Worse than the prequels, though? I call bullshit on that, without even looking.

twooffour said:

If it said "the worst of the THREE movies", I would maybe read it.
Worse than the prequels, though? I call bullshit on that, without even looking.

   My thoughts exactly.

Moth3r said:

This has been posted a dozen times before, but here are 10 Reasons Return of the Jedi Doesn't Completely Suck. 

 Pity that almost every point the dude makes has a little snarky backhanded diss of the film.

I'm firewalled and cant read the blog in the OP. Anybody feel like cutting/pasting it?

sonnyboo said:

Just finished the blu ray set. I wrote a blog about why ROTJ is the worst of the 6 movies.

Agree on point #10. That scene has always bothered me. Between the stilted acting, lack of logic and continuity (did Leia know ["somehow I've always known..."] that she was Luke's sister when they locked lips in ESB?), and the fact that she doesn't seem bothered at all that Vader is also her father. Definite low point for me.

Never thought much about point #1, but Kasden's draft would make for a better scene imo.

As for the rest. While I don't necessarily disagree with you, the kid in me, with rose-colored glasses firmly in place, just doesn't care. :)

TheBoost said:

I'm firewalled and cant read the blog in the OP. Anybody feel like cutting/pasting it?

I am a big fan of Star Wars, but I have never ever liked RETURN OF THE JEDI. Having just watched the Blu Ray, I'm gonna spout off a little about this. As I have said numerous times, I'm a much bigger fan of the MAKING OF these movies than I am of the movies themselves, so I will reference many things from various sources such as DVD (and obscure Laserdisc) commentaries, documentaries, out of print books (like John Preecher's THE MAKING OF RETURN OF THE JEDI from 1983), older screenplay drafts, and more.

SPOILER ALERT, if you're you know, Amish and have never seen the movie, this will ruin it.



10. LACK OF DRAMATIC TENSION PART 1 -In the scene with Leia and Han, right after Luke says, "Hey, you're my sister, even though we played tongue twister in the last movie", and the dramatic tension lasts almost 3 whole seconds before Han Solo, a well known scoundrel, gives up and apologizes right away. No waiting until they're in the battle and she gets shot to make up, thus creating some much needed drama. No consistency with character.

9. MATTE PAINTINGS - Okay, having just watched all 6 movies on Blu Ray, why are the matte paintings so blaringly obvious in this movie? In 1920x1080 High Definition video on a 42" monitor, the matte paintings of things like the Millenium Falcon in a hangar show way too much of the paint strokes and look incredibly fake.



8. BAD EFFECTS - In many ways the effects work in Return of the Jedi are STILL some of the best. Then why is some of the worst effects also in the same movie? There are several really poor blue screen shots, like when Han Solo and Lando are talking about permission to take the Millenium Falcon into battle, those shots are so terribly done, complete with the exact same horrendous matte paintings already mentioned. Throughout the movie, several of the blue screen composites rip me out of the movie because of how fake they looked. Sometimes followed immediately by some of the best of the 1980's FX work. See also the shot of Mongo's look alike mourning his dead Rancor, or Luke and Han on the skiff on Tatooine. There isn't a single shot in iV or V that compare to these 7-8 terrible FX debacles in JEDI.

7. DARTH VADER - Okay, even in the context of all 6 movies, When, where, and how did Luke sense some good in Vader? What actions were taken that demonstrate this innate sense of good? The hand cutting and torture in Empire Strikes Back? The killing of a few dozen defenseless children in Revenge of the Sith? Looking at just the original trilogy, there is absolutely NOTHING redeemable about Darth Vader. His newfound good side and thoughts, we have nothing but crappy dialogue to tell us about, is all we have to suddenly empathize with a character who has done terrible things. It rings quite hollow to me, and I am a big fan.

6. KILL LANDO - Also from Lawrence Kasden's draft, Lando was supposed to die and the Millenium Falcon did not actually make it out of the Deathstar II. There is no sense of sacrifice for the good guys in this film. With no sacrifice, there is a lot less honor. Since we the audience start to feel that the good guys aren't going to die, there isn't a lot of concern, or DRAMATIC TENSION. There it is again.



5. DEATH STAR, or LACK OF IMAGINATION - Why another Deathstar? I understand that in 1977's A NEW HOPE, George Lucas did not intend to do the whole Deathstar blowing up and trench run, but did because of studio pressure and thinking he would never get to play that card later. Still, come up with something NEW. Something imaginative. Rehashing a visual and just the exact same thing was kind of lame. Early drafts had not 1, but 2 Deathstars. That was twice as boring to me.

4. RELATIONSHIPS UNRESOLVED - This too plays into a lack of DRAMATIC TENSION, because when last Luke and Leia were seen together in Empire, she was taking care of her favorite idealist, but confessed to loving his best friend. By going back to a completely unused draft of Episode iV (the 2nd draft) where Luke and Leia were siblings, something OBVIOUSLY not adhered to in the previous 2 films. There was dramatic tension in a LOVE TRIANGLE. If Luke and Han are both suitors for Leia, then there might be a tear in their friendship. Even with the sibling reveal, there was an opportunity to play on this, but it gets dropped in favor of.... no tension.

3. HARRISON FORD - Harrison did not want to do this movie. He has repeatedly stated he did not want to play Han Solo again. Of all the principal actors, he was the only one NOT signed for this sequel. In the end he got a substantially better deal than the rest, but even monetary compensation did not inspire a watchable performance. Han Solo in this movie is unmotivated, poorly acted, and completely inconsistent with anything ever this guy has done in the 2 previous movies. Harrison weighed at least 20-25 pounds heavier and his hair looked like the stylist was Ray Charles in a dark closet. Sadly, Harrison was right in saying Han Solo should have died at the end of the first act to show some sacrifice and also to add some dramatic tension. Even Carrie Fisher, so blatantly coke'd out of her mind on every type of narcotic that existed in 1982, delivered a better performance than Harrison Ford in this movie.



2. EWOKS - No, I never liked the Ewoks. As I was all of 11 years old when Return of the Jedi came out and I found the pandering to be insulting to my age group. Having known for years this was intended to be Wookiees like Chewbacca, how on the hell are we supposed to accept these half sized, product placements as a substitute? I will say there was a single shot where two Ewoks get hit by laserfire, and one of them stays dead and the other one mourns him - that was deep. Now on Blu Ray, these things have iris' and they blink. Creepy, but more realistic. But way creepy. Seeing REVENGE OF THE SITH with a full on Wookiee battle, imagine what this COULD have been like...

1. LACK OF DRAMATIC TENSION PART II : FROM A CERTAIN POINT OF VIEW - Even as an 11 year old, I felt the Obi Wan Kenobi scene from Return of the Jedi to be a series low point. "What I told you was true... from a certain point of view"? Come on, that sucks. Why isn't Luke emotional? Why isn't he yelling at Obi Wan about NOT telling him who his father was? How does the moral ambiguity work for THIS, but not the Emperor or all the people who are drafted into the Imperial forces who die in the fight against the rebellion? The worst thing about this one is having read Lawrence Kasden's draft of this scene that George Lucas re-wrote. In Kasden's draft, Luke IS belligerent, asks angrily, "Why didn't you tell me Vader was my father?" and Obi Wan responds with, "We wanted to finish your training and prepare you for the burden but you left in such a hurry." Luke responds with "But I had to save my friends! They were in danger" and Obi Wan wisely retorts, "and in the end, didn't they end up saving YOU?" and that shuts Luke up and they have a civil conversation. DRAMA of the best kind. Never to be seen in this freakin' movie.

TV's Frink said:

TheBoost said:

I'm firewalled and cant read the blog in the OP. Anybody feel like cutting/pasting it?

Thanks Frink. You're OK, I don't care what everyone says about you. :)

Some of this is opinion, and if I disagree with it I don't necessarily think it's silly. Much is very good points. But since this is a nit picky message board, let me pick some nits.

VADER: Okay, even in the context of all 6 movies, When, where, and how did Luke sense some good in Vader? What actions were taken that demonstrate this innate sense of good?

That's the whole point. ONLY Luke senses it. Not Yoda, not Ben, not me or you. Only Luke has what it takes to redeem Vader. And he's right.

Han Solo in this movie is unmotivated, poorly acted, and completely inconsistent with anything ever this guy has done in the 2 previous movies.

I disagree with inconsistent. I say he's changed. They came back for him. I don't think Han Solo ever said "I owe you one" to anyone in his life before ROTJ. Han is now a team player, someone willing to volunteer to help the Rebellion and I think for the first time, he's someone deeply in love.

WhatsMyName said:

7. About Darth Vader, there were some small signs of him wondering if Luke was right. After Luke left him alone in the landing plateform catwalk, being the only one who could sense Luke on Endor, (even though palps said he had forseen it). One other one too i can't remember. But yea, if you look at all six movies you find that Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker was made out to be evil.

6. I can't stand the idea of Lando dying. I know there's some irony in that, but no. He can't die. it would ruin the movie for me, especially after i've seen it like, so many times i can't even count.

4. Wasn't it always meant for luke and leia to be bro and sis?

What I meant with #7 was there is no signs in A NEW HOPE or EMPIRE that Darth Vader had any good in him. Introducing this possibility in the middle of the 3rd act of a trilogy makes it seem completely out of place and out of character. Darth Vader did nothing good or redeeming in episodes iV or V.

#6. The fact that you care enough about Lando to NOT see him die is the very definition of the dramatic tension lacking in the movie. If he died, you would care. Without any danger, there is no drama.

#4. Only in the 2nd draft of EPISODE iV. In no other draft of the original screenplays for A NEW HOPE or EMPIRE STRIKES BACK (especially NOT in any draft of EMPIRE STRIKES BACK). With A NEW HOPE and EMPIRE as they were filmed, it is completely obvious they were not intended at the time they were filmed to be brother and sister. For god's sake, the make out with tongue. Twice if you include deleted scenes that were shot.

Mielr said:

 

sonnyboo said:

Just finished the blu ray set. I wrote a blog about why ROTJ is the worst of the 6 movies.

There are SIX Star Wars movies?! ;-)

 

For some people... :)

cthulhu1138 said:

#5

DEATH STAR II. They could have filled that slot with anything they wanted, another super weapon, a massive star destroyer facility, anything.

Hell, it could have been a massive Imperial shipyard orbiting Endor. The Empire could be mining raw materials from the moon. This would piss the Ewoks off and give more of a reason for them to join with the Rebels.

#1

That "certain point of view" schtick was unnecessary. Are we really supposed to believe that Obi-Wan honestly thinks that Anakin Skywalker died when Darth Vader was born? Because if that's not what he believes then why give that speech in the first place. He could have just flat-out told Luke that he wasn't ready to hear the truth yet. What would Luke have done, rushed to face his father as a completely untrained farmboy? Obi-Wan could have even admitted that maybe he was wrong for holding the information from him. It would have given more honesty to his character to admit error to Luke and would lead in nicely to admitting error in training Anakin.

 Could have been the Kuat Shipyards that are mentioned so much in the EU. Those who've played the Empire at war expansion, they could of used the SSD Eclipse. The one that has a super laser, not powerful enough to destroy an entire planet, but whole dreadnuaght size or however big the biggest ship is.

I agree they really need to fix that stupid point of view thing. Yoda kind of played it right.

Luke: "Unfortunate that i know the truth?"

Yoda: "You weren't ready for the heavy burden."

I know i skipped a few lines but i was trying to get to the main point.