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Moving in from the Basher's Sanctuary (TF.n) — Page 4

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heh, I've noticed the "cult" factor as well. Oh, and great points CO.

Originally posted by: CO
If TPM sucks like everyone says than why did it gross the most?


Your analysis of that question was good, but I would like to add my thoughts:

I actually think TPM was the best film out of the prequel trilogy. It had the most love and character out of all of them and it was just fun to watch. It wasn't very dramatic or all that well-crafted in general, and the acting was bad, but that fun, eat-some-popcorn-and-enjoy-the-action factor was still there. Not every movie has to be serious to be worth some watchings.

Now, I'll certainly agree with everyone here that TPM wasn't a good "Star Wars film," but I still found it redeemable on its own. The two following movies were absolutely godawful by comparison despite feeling more in line with the OT elements. It doesn't matter much to me if a movie feels like Star Wars if it totally sucks in the first place.


(Edit: added a missing word important for grammar.)

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Ironically Episode I and II are the only PT movies that I can watch without fast forwarding. No, seriously. They may not be that great of a film, but at least it is palatable most of the way through. Episode I the most. I can actually sit down and watch the whole thing and not hit the FF button.
Episode II, well there is the part with the whole Nintendo game sequence where Padme and Anakin are jumping over barrels that Donkey Kong is throwing that them in the factory. But other than that, it's not too bad.

Episode III? No. I fast forward though every scene Grevous is in. Plus any scene where Mace is in too. Basically half the movie. I can't stand it. Episode I, I could at least swallow. This movie? No. It just got worse and worse as Lucas went along.
"I am altering the movies. Pray I don't alter them any further." -Darth Lucas
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I can only watch the "love scenes" and Anakin's-struggling-with-the-dark-side scenes in Episode II if I laugh at them.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Interesting, I haven't been able to find a reason to watch the prequels again. I just can't stand them. The weird thing is, the reason I can't stand them is the numbering. If they did not say "star wars" in the title, I could have dealt with them. If they were not numbered 1, 2, 3; I could deal with them. But as it stands, I just can't stand 'em because they are just horrible for what they do to star wars. And what they do is infiltrate every layer of it. When people talk about how Obi Wan and Anakin Skywalker met, when they talk about how Anakin became Darth Vader, when they mention when R2D2 met frickin' C3PO, they are referring to scenes in these crappy movies and the crappy way all of the above and others were handled. I hate it. I hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate h8 hate hait hate hate hate hate it.
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"Episode III? No. I fast forward though every scene Grevous is in. Plus any scene where Mace is in too. Basically half the movie. I can't stand it. Episode I, I could at least swallow. This movie? No. It just got worse and worse as Lucas went along. "

ROTS is a pretty descent film, from the point Grevious dies to the point where Obi-wan and Anakin start lava-surfing on the droids.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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I actually think each Prequel movie got better than the previous one, cause it got closer to the story of Anakin turning. Now 'better' is not suppose to eventually mean great when it comes to ROTS, so please don't misunderstand me.

TPM just feels like an EU novel. You follow QuiGon, Jar Jar, and an undercover Padme for most of the movie, thus leaving ObiWan as a side character, and Anakin as a little boy with not much to do after the pod race. TPM's sole purpose should have been to establish the 4 relationships of the key players in the PT: Anakin, ObiWan, Padme, and Palpatine, within the two hour plot of establishing the whole republic beginning to crumble as the sith plot their revenge. Whenever I watch TPM, I get zero establishment of those four characters, and it does nothing to set up Episode II, as Lucas is not forced to resetup everything in AOTC.

For how bad the love story is in AOTC, and many other things that drive me crazy in that movie, atleast it focuses on the ObiWan, Anakin, and Padme. They are finally the stars of the movies, which should have started in TPM. Just imagine ANH not having Han, Leia, and Luke as the 3 main characters, instead not until ESB is everything set up for them to show their relationships. That would have meant, SW '77 would have failed, and ESB would have never happened. The only problem with AOTC is there is not enough Sidious, as we needed to see alittle more interaction between him & Anakin to show how he is becoming his real master instead of Kenobi. But again, as usual with the PT, we have to assume everything that is interesting plotwise.

Finally in ROTS, the four main characters are finally the four main characters, and their scenes are the most interesting of the saga, which should have started in TPM! Finally we see Palpatine messing with Anakin's head, finally we get to see a nice friendship moments at the beginning between Anakin/Kenobi, and finally we get a couple of un-nausiating moments between Padme/Anakin we they just talk heart to heart instead of talking like Romeo & Juliet.

Lucas had zero character arcs for the PT, and that is huge negative for me when it is all said and done. By not having the four main characters be the four main characters in TPM, I was never able to really care the way I should have when their fates were met at the end of ROTS. Sure there are alot of things I would change about the PT, but I feel the same way about ROTJ. But the reason ROTJ works for me better than the PT, is not because it is any better of a movie than them, but I really care about Luke, Leia, and Han, and I could be sucked into even an average film cause I wanted to see how their fates end. With ROTS, and Anakin laying there burning and Padme laying there dying of the will to live, I said to myself, "Am I suppose to get emotional here, cause the sad thing is I am not?" I had to see the twins being held by their foster parents for me to get emotional, and that is where Lucas failed.
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Originally posted by: Harlock415
A lot of that has to do withthe fact they have alienated almost every OOT fan on the boards. Some like me just hang around my city fan board now, mostly


Yeah, I'm having to almost single-handedly mount the OOT defense there!
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Thing is, it's not even worth fighting for the O-OT there. They did all they could to get rid of everyone who loves the O-OT. It's a lost cause. They even think that the original Star Wars is "meh". You sure as hell can't have a thread "Is ROTS meh?" in there. Hell, I remember a I guy getting banned for saying that Anakin was whiney (He is whiney. It's fact!). But you can bash the original movies as much as you like. It's insane.

I feel like just giving up. Im getting tired of Star Wars and all the bs that Lucas tries to shove down our throats and all fans praising him for it. Thing is, the guy isn't an artist anymore and everyone with half a brain can see it. He is only in it for the money. Like the new DVD release. It's like I read somewhere: He is releasing crap version now and get money from it and then later release a better version. I wouldn't be surprised if he wanted to do sequels now. I bet they'd be cgi 100% too. You could just let the 3dsmax guys at Lucasranch program..err.. I mean shoot the film.
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Practically the only reason I post TF.N these days is to the Virtual Prequel board. I really like it because it's the fan's attempt to write our own version of those cinematic failures.
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Originally posted by: zombie84


Yeah, I'm having to almost single-handedly mount the OOT defense there!


You know, on another forum there a group called the Prequel Special Edition Defense Force who cruise around... I don't know what the hell they do. They seem to post links to "bashing" on the prequels or the SE's. Maybe we should have an OOT Defense Force. Because the best defense is a good offense. Let's sack that quarterback
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Originally posted by: Tachikoma-Kun
Thing is, it's not even worth fighting for the O-OT there. They did all they could to get rid of everyone who loves the O-OT. It's a lost cause. They even think that the original Star Wars is "meh". You sure as hell can't have a thread "Is ROTS meh?" in there. Hell, I remember a I guy getting banned for saying that Anakin was whiney (He is whiney. It's fact!). But you can bash the original movies as much as you like. It's insane.

I feel like just giving up. Im getting tired of Star Wars and all the bs that Lucas tries to shove down our throats and all fans praising him for it. Thing is, the guy isn't an artist anymore and everyone with half a brain can see it. He is only in it for the money. Like the new DVD release. It's like I read somewhere: He is releasing crap version now and get money from it and then later release a better version. I wouldn't be surprised if he wanted to do sequels now. I bet they'd be cgi 100% too. You could just let the 3dsmax guys at Lucasranch program..err.. I mean shoot the film.



I 100% agree, I have actually given up posting on that site anymore, cause it just isn't worth it. In the ANH is 'meh' thread, you have people who want the whole movie updated cause it doesn't fit in with the saga! I mean how do you argue with someone like that?

Those people over there don't care about the O-OT, so they make comments like, "I don't see what the big deal of the O-OT being non-anamorphic?" Then when you press them, they admit that they are not even buying it. I would then say, "Well, if any mods would do their job here, can we please have responses here on the thead about the O-OT on DVD of fans who are atleast interested in buying it?" Then I would get a warning to stop baiting!

It is so sad where SW has come in 10 years, and the fact that Lucas has alienated myself and many here as fans is really pathetic. I have never seen a movie series that just spits on its fans like SW does now. It goes to my topic earlier that I don't think Lucas realizes how many of us older OT fans contributed to that cash cow called the Prequel Trilogy, and it is going to backfire on him if this release is as crappy as we anticipate.

He does not realize that the majority of SW fans are OT fans, not PT, and unfortunately he is catering to the minority. As I have said, most fans who grew up with the OT have never or wont ever post on a SW site, to them the saga is over now, just like Back to the Future and Lord of the Rings. But that doesn't mean they don't love those movies any less than they did the first time they saw them. For them, do they really need to have a debate on Vader being Lukes father, or Lukes failure at the cave? No, we did that on the playground in the 80's!

The stuff of putting the O-OT out as bonus material, and Lucas comments in 2004 that if we want it we can still get it on VHS, cause he won't invest the money to remaster it. Then you get the TF.n faithful who cheer Lucas on for giving the middle finger to a huge part of his fanbase. I really think they love that we are getting non-anamorphic, it is almost like we are getting what we deserve in their opinion.

I answer every response of 'you guys are getting what you deserve' like this, "Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back, and Return of the Jedi are my three favorite movies of all-time. Most directors would kill for one of their movies to be in someones top 10 of favorites. Lucas has three of his movies in my top 3." If this is what I deserve for my three favorite movies being created by George Lucas, then you tell me who's being petty now?


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"A New Hope is meh." Those fruitcakes. They don't realize they are helping to kill all of Star Wars by turning it into a creepy, narrow-appeal fringe thing, like what happened to Star Trek. It's hard to imagine now, but my entire family actually waited in a HUGE line for Star Trek IV. It wasn't even opening day, either.
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Originally posted by: CO
TPM just feels like an EU novel. You follow QuiGon, Jar Jar, and an undercover Padme for most of the movie, thus leaving ObiWan as a side character, and Anakin as a little boy with not much to do after the pod race. TPM's sole purpose should have been to establish the 4 relationships of the key players in the PT: Anakin, ObiWan, Padme, and Palpatine, within the two hour plot of establishing the whole republic beginning to crumble as the sith plot their revenge. Whenever I watch TPM, I get zero establishment of those four characters, and it does nothing to set up Episode II, as Lucas is not forced to resetup everything in AOTC.

Hmm, I basically agree with you about all of those flaws. TPM definitely fails to work as a Star Wars movie. Revenge of the Sith on the other hand is much closer to what you and I, and every other traditional Star Wars fan expected from a prequel Star Wars "saga." Unfortunately, it was an absolutely horrible film from just about every other point of view in my mind. The ways it drags with such torturous boredom . . . I'm mostly a fan of entertaining drama before I'm a fan of Star Wars I suppose I could say. The Phantom Menace was at least a fast movie that was fun to watch.


Originally posted by: CO
I answer every response of 'you guys are getting what you deserve' like this, "Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back, and Return of the Jedi are my three favorite movies of all-time. Most directors would kill for one of their movies to be in someones top 10 of favorites. Lucas has three of his movies in my top 3." If this is what I deserve for my three favorite movies being created by George Lucas, then you tell me who's being petty now?


Amen.

I hate the assholes who twist everything to make it sound like we have the problem. So absurd. We're not doing any physical or mental harm to George Lucas' rights as the true owner of Star Wars. We're simply and correctly pointing out that he's lost his marbles.

Plus, any other, sane director would also kill to have a record breaking version of their film given a quality release on DVD. Whatever happened to releasing multiple versions? He could have stopped any complainers from the start if he had chosen to. Instead, he created this problem.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Originally posted by: MeBeJedi
LOL....I doubt his godliness will show up around here...no banstick to back himself up.


That dude has banned me more times than I care to count. Easily over a year worth of bans.... I'm somewhere in the middle of a 9 monther right now.

TFN used to be a really fun board to go on.... it still is, but it depends on who is the Mod on whatever board you're posting in.

"Among many things I have to be thankful for are you, the fans. I know that some of you haven't liked every single thing that I've done with the saga, and that you have a strong sense of ownership over all things Star Wars. But take that passion and devotion and channel it into a creative project of your own."
-George Lucas
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I used to like TF.N about 6-7 years ago. Back when TPM was still new and we hadn't drawn lines in the sand where we stood. Now, I've been banned so many times that I can't go back. Nor would I want to. They can wallow in their own SE/PT shit for all I care. Those people will amount to nothing in society with views like that, because if that is how they blindly follow Lucas and his constant rehashing and controdictions, then they must be that way about everything. Mindless sheep.
"I am altering the movies. Pray I don't alter them any further." -Darth Lucas
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I have never been to theforce.net but the things I have read about it in this thread (ANH is 'meh', Prequel defense force, etc) makes me very sad for Star Wars.

Long Live OT.com

War does not make one great.

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Originally posted by: CO
LSHB
Ree Yees
Invader Jenny
Sanctuary Moon
DOTF
Patrick Russell
Wampa Joe
Harlock 415
Skye Solo
Mandalorian
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Such familiar names, I was cjedi72, and didn't know the sanctuary existed, and started arguing with fans who thought TPM was better than the original SW, so I got banned. When I was released from jail, I moderated myself around the PT gushers, and hung out in the sanctuary, cause that was the only place you could post an opinion without getting warned of baiting.



Wow we do have quite the gathering of “bashers” here. I can remember being on the same side as CJedi72 and Sanctuary Moon in many debates.

I also was a longtime TFN poster, initially as fistofsouth and later as Darth-Adroit and of course my sock Dark Lord of the Socks. My primary screen name (DA) was banned for being critical of the films. It kills me; I NEVER stoop to the level of insulting a poster or personal attacks and I was banned for saying that many fans had become Lucas apologists. I tried to fight the good fight; to point out that apologist is not an insult unless one takes it as such, to point out that my comments were directed at no poster in particular and I pointed out the fact that I has been PERSONALLY attacked by no less than a dozen gushers for the three pages that preceded my “offensive” comment. Did the mods warn the other users? I don’t know they may have via PM, but they specifically pointed me out within the discussion as the source of the problem.

TFN is not a place for constructive discussion of any kind. I posted on those boards for seven years and watched it slide downhill the whole time. There was a time when I really hated seeing posts from Darth Howell the third and all the others that came up with crazy theories (R2 camera, Yoda is the Sith lord, et al) while the PT was being made. After those posters left I missed them because I realized that their crazy theories were the only thing keeping the mods out of constructive debates. After ROTS came out all the crazy theory threads disappeared and the real crack down on “bashers” began.

Glad to see so many other “bashers” made their way over here. I consider us the Bens and Yodas of TFN. TFN is now a dark, evil empire where critical thought is extinguished before it can germinate. It’s comforting to know that the OT forum (Rebel Alliance) exists to nurture those of us that don’t love every piece of tripe George serves up.


"Look, going good against bashers/gushers is one thing. Going good against the living? That's something else."
- Darth-Adroit

“I also thought George could be turned back to the good side. It couldn't be done. He is more CGI now than story. Twisted and evil.”
- Darth-Adroit
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Originally posted by: Tachikoma-Kun
So that was how liberty really died... To a deafening silence. I can't help but think that they are shooing themselves in the leg. Once you drive out all the critisism and alternative points of views, you are left with nothing.


That is a very astute observation, but it isn’t the only way they are shooting themselves in the foot.

Note that the majority of posters on the “Bashers Sanctuary” were over the age of thirty.

Note that people age 30-55 are in the prime of their bread-winning years while teens and twenty-somethings struggle to make it. The former group has much more discretionary income than the later and they are also much more likely to have children of their own.

Note that TFN makes mad cash based on people following their links to purchase items.

In my case this means that TFN lost four possible sources of income (DA, DA’s wife, DA’s two kids) just because they don’t respect differing points of view. It’s obvious just from looking around here that I am far from the only person that left and that’s just the people that left the “Basher’s Sanctuary.” Now imagine all of the posters that took the moral high ground and refused to even post in the Sanctuary because it implied that they were bashers. All of these people have found other sites and those sites are now reaping the rewards for TFN’s (or more accurately TFN mod’s) foolishness.


"Look, going good against bashers/gushers is one thing. Going good against the living? That's something else."
- Darth-Adroit

“I also thought George could be turned back to the good side. It couldn't be done. He is more CGI now than story. Twisted and evil.”
- Darth-Adroit
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Jenny, what was your username on TF.n?

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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The exact same thing. Invader_Jenny.
"I am altering the movies. Pray I don't alter them any further." -Darth Lucas
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Wow, I've been banned from there for the first time--and for likely just because i said that readers should realise that TFN boards are slanted in their view and dont represent how the OOT is perceived in the rest of society. Incredible.
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Some people just can't take criticism and destroy all opposition. In the real world, we call that fascism, which is what the F in TF.n should stand for.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Originally posted by: zombie84
Wow, I've been banned from there for the first time--and for likely just because i said that readers should realise that TFN boards are slanted in their view and dont represent how the OOT is perceived in the rest of society. Incredible.



I just got banned there too, I was using LordHelmet1, and only because you and I were defending the OOT from every jerkoff who would make a snide remark about anyone who wants it in anamorphic video. Go through all those posts, and nobody gets warned for telling the oldtimers "they are getting what they deserved." The sad thing is Twilek, or whatever his username is, he is the mod who banned everyone and two weeks ago, he chimed in and said, "All of you who whined and buried George all these years, are getting what you deserved with this release." Now, isn't he talking about the fans instead of the films?

That site is truly bias and totally pathetic. I think they take an oath:

"Thou shall not even like or enjoy the original Star Wars, and think it should be completely remade"

"Thou shall think the Prequels are all masterpieces."

"Thou shall think Jar Jar was annoying on purpose, it was always intended by Lucas to show him as an outcast"

"Thou shall not like any of the O-OT movies, even though every one of the fans who post there had to watch them before 1997, and for some reason didn't have a problem with them then."

"Thou shall defend Hayden Christenson as the force ghost in ROTJ SE even though it makes no sense"

OK, you are a member of TF.n
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I sent a reply to his superior stating it was personal harrasment based on a personal bias against me for my views. It really is completely unwarranted and hypocritical and I'm not going to stand for it. What the fuck is happening to that site?
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Originally posted by: zombie84
I sent a reply to his superior stating it was personal harrasment based on a personal bias against me for my views. It really is completely unwarranted and hypocritical and I'm not going to stand for it. What the fuck is happening to that site?



The problem is almost every mod on that site loves the SE & PT, and they just don't really care about our cause for the O-OT and decent quality. They just don't want to hear that the Original SW shouldn't be touched, remember a mod started 'Is ANH meh' thread, so the ideology over there starts from the top.

What the problem is, is they are starting to scare fans that are sort of in the middle away from their site. Now you just have a bunch of PT gushers and a small amount of PT haters left, and nothing in between, and there is no way to have a civil conversation with someone who is not willing to look at the other side. I have given up there.