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.: Moth3r's PAL DVD project :. — Page 4

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I've checked some other scenes and not noticed anything that suggests the filter is being triggered by legitimate objects (like blaster fire, etc.). Although I haven't checked through every single frame.

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My Star Wars ANH DVDR (V1.0) is now completed.

Good Points:
- The overall picture quality on this DVD is very good. IMO it is significantly better than DrGonzo's version, and also shows an improvement over the TR47 and EditDroid transfers. (At least until TR47's next release, or one of the versions derived from the X0 project, becomes available.)

- AFAIK it's the only PAL version that's been made available for download. I would be interested to know how this capture compares to those others who have made or attempted to make DVDs from the PAL laserdiscs (i.e. Karyudo, Grisan, Norinadd?)

Bad Points:
(Or, things I want to improve on for V2.0!)

- The capture card I used is one of the cheapest available. Also, the outdated comb filter inside the LD player (Pioneer CLD-D925) is used for Y/C seperation, so there is a small amount of dot-crawl. I have a feeling that an overall improvement could be obtained by using the unseperated composite output from a Pioneer CLD-2950 with something like a SweetSpot capture card (containing a more advanced 3D comb filter). This is something I would like to explore in the future.

- Halos to the left of dark objects in front of a light background. This is *not* a digital artefact caused by a sharpening filter, it's an analogue "sharpness" effect present in the source capture. It's not really noticeable on a normal CRT TV, but may annoy those with large LCD or Plasma displays. Again, I would hope that this could be reduced by using the combination of hardware descibed above.

- Occasional spots or lines caused by dust or scratches on the disc surface. I used a filter to remove the worst of the lines, but I was worried that trying to remove all defects would have unwanted side-effects, such as eating up the starfields in the space scenes. I should look into getting a proper cleaning solution and giving the discs a good polish. (Also keep in mind many of the defects you may notice are actually a result of the transfer from film to laserdisc).

- The audio is from an analogue source (VHS). The signal-to-noise ratio of VHS hi-fi audio is actually pretty good, but there will be some noise introduced nonetheless. Also I only used the line-in from my motherboard's onboard sound, not a high-end sound card. Some minor jitter in the tape playback meant that I had to remove the occasional 40ms to keep the sound in sync; I ran the audio through SoundForge to remove any clicks so hopefully even those with good ears won't notice this. (Ideally I would like to get a soundcard with SPDIF input and get a digital to digital copy of the audio from an English language laserdisc.)

- The side change from 1-2 is pretty abrupt; a screenwipe is missing. This is a problem with the French discs. Apparently the German LDs are from the same film transfer but with the side changes at different points, so I need to get hold of the German discs to fill in the missing frames (more expense!) Side change 2-3 is fine, change 3-4 is I think only missing about 7 frames.

- I've noticed some minor interlacing artefacts in a couple of shots; this seems to be a problem with some sort of phase shift in the disc in places. However, you only notice this when viewing frame-by-frame in VirtualDub.

- Variations in colour saturation seem to occur occasionally. I've got no idea what caused this.

- Some dark scenes have what look like MPEG compression artefacts (macro-blocks) in the picture. This is not caused by bitrate starvation of the encode, it's actually a side-effect of the filter used for noise reduction. Again it's probably only those with digital displays who will notice this.

- Subtitles are hard-encoded into the picture. Yeah, I know it's not the ideal method, but it was quick and simple.

- Chapter points don't always exactly match the chapter points of the laserdisc with frame-accuracy (because I didn't tell the encoder where the 'I' frames should be).

- No menus or extras whatsoever. Personally I like to put a disc in and have it play from the start without a menu appearing, I feel it stays more true to the laserdisc this way. However, in a future version I'd certainly like to put in alternative audio tracks (mono, original dolby surround); it would then make sense to have a simple audio selection menu.

Other ideas I'm considering for the future:
- An NTSC 16:9 version created from the PAL laserdiscs. (Just curious how they would compare with the NTSC captures off the X0.)

- A multi-lingual version.

---

My immediate plan is to do ESB and ROTJ using the same hardware and process as this version, to complete the set. Then I'll have a bit of a break, do some other stuff that's been on the back burner for a while, hopefully get into the wife's good books so when I mention spending £100's on a new capture card and *another* laserdisc player I won't get killed.

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Hello Moth3r.

Gratulations for reaching v1.0 of your first disc.

I have stopped working on my own version at approx. v0.8 because I can't get a copy of the english language 1995 Laserdiscs from France (for a reasonable price). So far I created one anamorphic PAL disc of ANH with german and english sound and german only non-anamorphic PAL dvds of all 3 movies. If you you are interested in these versions for comparison PM me. I possess both the french and the german Laserdisc so I can also give you the missing frames resulting from side changes.
My versions were done on similar equipment so the quality should be similar. I used a Pioneer CLD 515 player (composite connection) and a Phillips SAA7134 based capture card.

Greetings from germany
Grisan
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I have has to stop work on mine until I finish my dissertation, but hope to restart in late May/June, my LD's are currently on the way to Laserman
Egon "Don't Cross the streams it would be very bad"

Peter "i'm fuzzy on the whole good/bad thing"

Egon "lmagine the 97 Star Wars Special Editions"
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The following information may be useful:

How to burn IMG files

With DVD Decrypter installed:
1. Right-click the IMG file
2. Select 'Burn'.

With Nero:
1. Go to File -> burn image.
2. Change "files of type" to "all files"
3. Select the IMG file.
4. A box will pop up saying unrecognised image format yada yada, just accept the defaults and click OK.
5. Burn as usual.

How to watch on your PC
with DAEMON Tools installed:
1. Right-click on the D-tools icon in the sys tray, and select "mount image".
2. Select the IMG file.
3. Watch as normal with PowerDVD, etc.

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"- Halos to the left of dark objects in front of a light background. This is *not* a digital artefact caused by a sharpening filter, it's an analogue "sharpness" effect present in the source capture."

Remind me. Did you use the Def Col or the Faces set? I know the Def. Col. transfer, while from the same source, was "touched up" in some ways (ovedone, in fact.)

"(Also keep in mind many of the defects you may notice are actually a result of the transfer from film to laserdisc). "

Agreed. Having gone through ANH frame-by-frame myself, I can tell you - you'd all be AMAZED at the amount of dirt, noise and other such defects in the actual transfer. When Laserman saw my transfer, he mentioned something about all the visual glitches, but when we ran the LD through the XO, the glitches actually got worse, because the player displayed them much more prominently (which, of course, meant I had a better player than originally thought. )

"- Variations in colour saturation seem to occur occasionally. I've got no idea what caused this."

Again, it's the LD.

"- No menus or extras whatsoever. Personally I like to put a disc in and have it play from the start without a menu appearing, I feel it stays more true to the laserdisc this way. However, in a future version I'd certainly like to put in alternative audio tracks (mono, original dolby surround); it would then make sense to have a simple audio selection menu."

You can have menus and still make the DVD autoplay. Early Universal releases did this, such as Waterworld.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Originally posted by: MeBeJedi
Remind me. Did you use the Def Col or the Faces set? Neither -- I used the French PAL discs. I'm under the impression that it's a totally different transfer to the DC, it's certainly cropped differently.
Originally posted by: MeBeJedi
You can have menus and still make the DVD autoplay. Early Universal releases did this, such as Waterworld.
And A Bug's Life, one of the early Disney DVDs. You can see how much their releases have deteriorated, these days you have to skip forward through 20 trailers of Straight To Video crap before you can play the main movie. (Unless you rip them and re-author of course.)

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"these days you have to skip forward through 20 trailers of Straight To Video crap before you can play the main movie. (Unless you rip them and re-author of course.) "

That's EXACTLY what I do. My daughter watches the copies, which contain just the film (without credits), and I put the masters up high and dry.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Hi,

I'm a long time lurker, first time poster, and all that...

Moth3r's PAL transfer of ANH has drawn me out of the shadows. It also made me sign up with a newsgroup provider, just so i could get hold of it - and thanks to russs15 for his newsgroup tips, Astraweb was just what I was looking for.

I have to say this DVD looks amazing. Detail-wise this is the best laserdisc transfer I've seen to date - that includes TR47, Editdroid, ISOMIX and DR Gonzo versions. It looks like the extra resolution of the PAL source discs helps a lot, as even rescaled to an anamorphic picture, it looks crisp, and the starfields are so much more visible than other versions. I don't know what you've used to resize the video, Moth3r, but it's done a superb job. Hats off to you.

As Moth3r pointed out its not perfect, i noticed dozens of line drops through out the movie, and compared with other version, the video looks a little undersaturated, with maybe a red-bias, but its nothing that can't be remedied by cranking up the colour on your tv. Another distracting thing is the disc change between side 1-2, which as moth3r says, is missing the screenwipe as ben and luke are lifting c3po. However, it wasn't this that was jarring as much as the shot of ben's hut which it cuts too, which appeared to be a lower resolution still of ben hut on freeze frame for a few seconds. The difference in quality, and the fact it looked like the video had been paused was enough to jolt me out of the movie for a few seconds.

The other slight distraction is as this is the first transfer of star wars I've seen in PAL for quite some - despite living in the UK - everything just seems to move slightly too quickly compared to the NTSC versions i'm used to, so it'd be interesting to see how an NTSC version of this transfer compares.


Just wanted to say, Moth3r, you've done a great job with this transfer, thanks for releasing it to the masses, and I can't wait to see what you come up with next.

Impressive. Most impressive, some might say...







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What software did you use to create the DVD? I'm quite good with DVD Maestro if that could help. I could also help to create an alien subtitle track to avoid to have it burned into the image.
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Thanks for the feedback s7en. Out of interest, what system did you watch it on (TV size/type, home cinema setup, etc.)?

I'm honoured that my DVD prompted you to sign up for premium newsgroup access, but I'm sure you will find other things of interest once you've had a look what else is available...

The shot of Ben's hut appears on the LD as a field-bobbed freeze frame, which is why it looks so blocky - half the resolution is missing. I didn't find it too distracting, but then I knew it was coming.

When I watched the film I was more distracted by the sudden change in colour saturation that occurs twice, once in the strategy meeting on the Death Star, and again on Han and Chewie in the Death Star control room.

And those little line drops are irritating, if I get the same on the ESB and ROTJ discs I think I'll increase the detection strength of the descratch filter.

Your comments on the colour are interesting. I set the saturation objectively by viewing a couple of scenes with strong red lights in VirtualDub, and using the Color Tools plugin filter to make sure the signal strength did not exceed 110 IRE. (100 is the max at which theoretical clipping occurs, but a little extra is normally considered OK). So, assuming that I've got this right, and that the colour level is reasonably constant throughout (barring the sudden changes noted above) then this implies that the other version you are comparing it to is actually oversaturated.

Although saturation can be set objectively as described above, setting hue is more subjective. (There is that blue filter test you can do with some colour bars, but I don't have any colour bars on a PAL LD that I can test it with!) So I decided not to touch the hue setting, and leave it set dead centre, as any alteration would be applying my own subjective judgement to the transfer. Any red bias that exists is therefore a result of this default setting.

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Originally posted by: Moth3r

I'm honoured that my DVD prompted you to sign up for premium newsgroup access, but I'm sure you will find other things of interest once you've had a look what else is available...


s7en was not the only one to sign in for newsgroups access just to get your project. I did it also, after your reply to my PM. If there are others like me and s7en, maybe astraweb should consider paying you and russs15
And now, for your feature presentation:
The Classic Re-re-re-release of Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back.
In this version the word "WOOKIE" has been changed to "HAIR CHALLENGED ANIMAL" and the entire cast has been digitally replaced by Ewoks.
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"(There is that blue filter test you can do with some colour bars, but I don't have any colour bars on a PAL LD that I can test it with!)"

I can get some to you. (Vegas has them for NTSC and PAL.)

[EDIT] - Oops, you want them on LD. Sorry, can't help you there.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Moth3r,

My setup is a 28inch widescreen Panasonic (TX-W28R4), its nothing fancy, it hasn't even got a 100htz display, but it gives a good picture for both PAL and NTSC. Audio is through Yamaha DSP-A5 5.1 amp and a nice set of Mission speakers.

The shot of Ben's hut appears on the LD as a field-bobbed freeze frame
That's exactly what I thought I was looking at.
I didn't even notice the two changes in colour saturation you mentioned till I went back looking for them. Maybe upping the colour on my tv made it less noticeable.

With further regard to the look of the DVD, I think the brightness and contrast are great, and I didn't notice any undue clipping with objects becoming overbright. With saturation, its a bit more subjective. For a long time I favoured the Dr Gonzo release, which is probably the most colourful version out there - outside of George Lucas' seemingly recolourised 2004 not-so-Special Edition DVD's - so by comparisons yours looks more muted. I usually have the colour setting of my tv set in the middle, but yours is one of those rare dvd's that made me want to turn it up.

As for the red-bias comment, I first noticed things looking redder than expected when testing the initial download on my PC. Watching it on my tv the redness iss less noticeable. However, I'm not convinced there's anything wrong with your transfer. I've made some screengrab comparisons, and while your version looks slighty redder, compared to the slightly cooler NTSC versions, I think the main difference may lie with the source material. Where I notice the biggest difference, that may have lulled me into thinking the whole transfer was red-biased, were the shots on Tatooine. NTSC versions depict Tatooine with blue skies and yellow sand, where as the Tatooine in your transfer looks more grey/overcast with more rust coloured sands. Tatooine shots aside, for the bulk of the movie, the differences in colour between versions are probably negligible.

Just to qualify what I'm saying, here's some screengrabs* comparing Moth3r, Dr Gonzo, and EditDroid versions.

Found R2
Selling The Droids
Droids Control Room
Falcon Yavin
Yavin Temple Exterior
Medals

*Grabbed at 'original video source size' with PowerDVD and resized to correct aspect ratio in photoshop (black bars cropped for space). Each file is around 170KB, jpg compression at 55%

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Two newsgroup converts in the same thread??

That must be some kind of record on this forum.........



Looking forward to seeing Empire and Jedi as are a few others judging by previous comments.

4 - 5 - 3 - 1 - 6 - 2

Discuss…

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Two newsgroup converts in the same thread??

That must be some kind of record on this forum.........


"I was blind, but now I can see!"


Definitely looking forward to see what a PAL tranfer does for Empire and Jedi too.


"He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy."
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The grey skies of Tatooine are the same in the laserdisc source, and there is also some inconsistency - they could be blue in one shot, then grey the next. It's unfortunate because the blue sky and yellow sand in Dr Gonzo's shot looks a lot nicer.

But that stormtrooper in the control room does look pink when compared to the other two shots...

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I too am a long time lurker...

Moth3r hands down this is best LD transfer in the community yet. I watched it with a Sanyo Z2 projector at about a 10ft (3.3m since you're on the other side of the pond) diagonal. Everything held up nicely even at these large sizes. It was nice to see stars again in Star Wars. I really can't wait to see Empire and Jedi... and maybe versions 2.0 in the distant future. Your hard work is greatly appreciated.
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Originally posted by: dumb_kid
...
(3.3m since you're on the other side of the pond)...
Most Brits still use feet and inches; it's our European cousins who are totally metric...

Thanks for the feedback!

A couple of little updates:

There's a neat cover for the first DVD in the making (thanks to Metallaxis), I really like it and it's a bit different to the covers that have been done for the other sets.

I've had to re-calibrate the capture settings for Empire, the disc transfer seems to be completely different from ANH. Here's how it's looking so far:

http://img147.echo.cx/img147/5929/14hk1.jpg
The white level needed to be lowered as the brightness in the sky in this shot was overblown.

http://img207.echo.cx/img207/5987/28yw.jpg
When I got to this scene, the hot pixel scan shot off the scale with that red! After reducing the saturation, I've recovered a bit of detail in the reflections behind Threepio.

http://img120.echo.cx/img120/3623/34ig.jpg
Checking the starfields still look nice...

http://img120.echo.cx/img120/2332/46vh.jpg
Checking the Hoth battle. Bright images seem to be very noisy on my hardware, but look a lot better after the filtering process.

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WOW, these look amazing. Great work Moth3r.

“Good… Bad… I’m the guy with the gun.”

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Very nice looking screengrabs. Are they from before or after mpg2 encoding?
Looks like a very good start, Moth3r. The edge halos doesn't look as obvious as the star wars transfer, and the colours look pretty good to me. The only point for criticism I can see is the red behind c3po looks a bit noisey, and seems to have a bit of a moire pattern running through it. Is this a casualty of dot crawl or a problem in the original source? And more importantly, how does it all look on a tv?

Anyway, I'm a big fan of your work so far, and looking forward to seeing what you do with Empire and Jedi.

And yay for feet and inches, and pounds and ounces - Imperial measurements seem appropriate for this site
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Originally posted by: s7en
Very nice looking screengrabs. Are they from before or after mpg2 encoding? They have not been encoded into MPEG-2; I took the output after post-processing, cropped the borders and resized the image to natural aspect ratio, then saved as JPEG with a high-quality setting.
Originally posted by: s7en
The only point for criticism I can see is the red behind c3po looks a bit noisey, and seems to have a bit of a moire pattern running through it. Is this a casualty of dot crawl or a problem in the original source? And more importantly, how does it all look on a tv?
I'm not sure on the technical details of why pure reds are so problematic. Bear in mind it looks worse on a monitor than on a TV, and I am using only light noise reduction so as to keep detail intact.

I've just noticed that shot shows some minor ghosting (there is a faint shadow of Luke's face from the previous frame); this is present on the raw capture before post-processing. I think I've read somewhere that the Def. Collection laserdiscs had similar defects, I believe it's due to digital noise reduction applied to the video master that the laserdiscs were pressed from.

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Bear in mind it looks worse on a monitor than on a TV, and I am using only light noise reduction so as to keep detail intact.

Just what I was hoping you'd say


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I have made the cover art for this transfer under Moth3r's supervision.
You can download it in the link below

Thin spine cover (1.8MB)

EDIT: Moth3r, you were right. The thick spine was for 2ble DVD cases, but when it comes to your transfer, there is absolutely no need for a double DVD case (there is only 1 disc). It never occured to me that way, but now you mentioned it, I decided to remove the link for the thick spine.
And now, for your feature presentation:
The Classic Re-re-re-release of Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back.
In this version the word "WOOKIE" has been changed to "HAIR CHALLENGED ANIMAL" and the entire cast has been digitally replaced by Ewoks.
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I like them!

I'll post the thin spine one to a.b.starwars.

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