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More dailies/deleted scenes in digital "making of" books... — Page 3

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imperialscum said:

It just amazes me seeing people say that OOT should be restored. I takes just a little computer knowledge to see that it is already restored. When they digitalised and cleaned the film stock for the purpose of 1997 SE (which in average yields higher resolution than 1080p Blu-Ray), they without doubt first copied that data of hi-res digitalised theatrical version on at least several hard disks before started altering one of the copies. When they applied the changes for the 1997 SE, then they actually reduced the size/resolution to fit Laserdisc.

If you ask me, the theatrical versions are already digitalised and cleaned up somewhere in LucasFilm archives. That is unless Lucas specifically ordered to destroy the source data.

The official story is that the source data has been altered with all of George's new visions, so...

If this is actually true, it would mean the people who made those decisions are unprofessional idiots, but it is not implausible. 

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Worse case scenario you'd hope an employe would've hidden a copy.

Remember that guy who worked at the BBC and spent ages stuffing old episodes of Dr Who and that clip of Hendrix on the Lulu show into the ceiling tiles so the tapes wouldn't be wiped.

VIZ TOP TIPS! - PARENTS. Impress your children by showing them a floppy disk and telling them it’s a 3D model of a save icon.

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Wexter said:

imperialscum said:

It just amazes me seeing people say that OOT should be restored. I takes just a little computer knowledge to see that it is already restored. When they digitalised and cleaned the film stock for the purpose of 1997 SE (which in average yields higher resolution than 1080p Blu-Ray), they without doubt first copied that data of hi-res digitalised theatrical version on at least several hard disks before started altering one of the copies. When they applied the changes for the 1997 SE, then they actually reduced the size/resolution to fit Laserdisc.

If you ask me, the theatrical versions are already digitalised and cleaned up somewhere in LucasFilm archives. That is unless Lucas specifically ordered to destroy the source data.

The official story is that the source data has been altered with all of George's new visions, so...

If this is actually true, it would mean the people who made those decisions are unprofessional idiots, but it is not implausible. 

Well that just cannot be true. If they didn't make multiple copies of source data (to have backup in case something goes wrong) that wouldn't mean they were unprofessional, that would mean they were complete idiots. And it is highly unlikely a complete idiot can learn how to do digital editing in the first place.

真実

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imperialscum said:

When they applied the changes for the 1997 SE, then they actually reduced the size/resolution to fit Laserdisc.

??

imperialscum said:

If you ask me, the theatrical versions are already digitalised and cleaned up somewhere in LucasFilm archives. That is unless Lucas specifically ordered to destroy the source data.

Even if for some absurd reason they aren't, there's perfectly viable film elements out there to make new video transfers. This is not and never has been a question of film elements in poor condition but a creator that has continuously stood in the way of it to happen. The official words from Lucasfilm was:

Lucasfilm's PR Response Regarding the 2006 DVD Box Set

I wanted you to know how much we appreciate the passion and enthusiasm you have for Star Wars, and thank you for sharing your concerns about our upcoming DVD release.

The DVDs being released in September will contain two versions of Star Wars: Episodes IV, V and VI—the Special Editions (which represent George's vision of the movies) and the first versions, which will be included as bonus material. We hoped that releasing those "original" movies on a bonus disc would be a way to have some additional fun with the debut of the movies as individual DVDs. We certainly did not want it to become a source of concern or frustration for any of our fans.

As you may know, an enormous amount of effort was put into digitally restoring the negatives for the Special Editions. In one scene alone, nearly 1 million pieces of dirt had to be removed, and the Special Editions were created through a frame-by-frame digital restoration. The negatives of the movies were permanently altered for the creation of the Special Editions, and existing prints of the first versions are in poor condition.

So many fans have requested the original movies, we wanted to find a way to bring them to you. But since these movies do not represent George's artistic vision, we could not put the extraordinary time and resources into this project as we did with the Special Editions. The 1993 Laserdisc masters represented the best source for providing the original versions as DVD bonus material. Although these are non-anamorphic versions, they do preserve the original widescreen composition of the movies.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions.

We hope you will understand our decision and, again, want to let you know how much we appreciate your interest and enthusiasm.

Sincerely,

Lynne Hale
publicity@lucasfilm.com

 

The whole thing was basically just a big fuck you to the fans, the lousy 2006 bonus feature was trumpeted on the official site as a major release along with tasteless "Han shot first" T-shirts for sale even though the transfers located on the 2nd discs was 13 years old at that point.

Here's how known film historian and preservationist Robert A. Harris responded:

 

"Dear Lynne,
 
I've read the statement which has been released under your name.
 
I wanted to make very certain that you totally understand what both Star Wars fans and Home Theater aficionados have been trying to say. Occasionally the message may have become muddled from passion.
 
Everyone respectfully understands that Mr. Lucas prefers his updated versions of the films.
 
There is no argument.
 
Everyone understands that a proper restoration of the films could be both expensive and time-consuming.
 
There is no argument.
 
Allow me to explain that this has nothing to do with "prints." It doesn't matter if prints are faded, scratched, or even missing every scene in which a favored character appears.
 
Prints are disposable.
 
That said, we must believe that acceptable Pre-print elements survive in the form of interpositives, dupe negatives and / or separation masters. If this is the case, then Fox would be totally capable of creating a new anamorphic video master. This is what their archival staff does on a daily basis, and they do it exceedingly well.
 
Assuming that these elements exist, then no one is suggesting the reconstruction of elements or a restoration that isn't necessary.
 
The single point that has so many people dissatisfied is that the original films are not being placed into home video distribution in WIDE SCREEN ANAMORPHIC format.
 
No one is requesting that the films be digitally cleaned and re-mastered to perfection, although many feel that they may be deserving of such treatment.
 
A bit of dirt; an occasional scratch; an errant mark here or there is not what this discussion has been about.
 
While the use of your 1993 masters, which were the highest quality of their era, would have been fine almost a decade ago, they are no longer of a quality requisite to be screened with black on all four sides on wide screen monitors, no less an modern projection devices.
 
Now that we all seem to have better communication, can we please re-consider a simple re-transfer in anamorphic widescreen as opposed to using archaic video masters.
 
This isn't what LucasFilm, which has always led in both quality as well technology has ever been about.
 
Without any high cost, without any restoration, and yet allowing Star Wars fans to properly screen on modern devices what to many is a veritable holy grail...
 
This should be a simple, painless and viable answer.
 
With best regards,
 
RAH"

 

I'm fond of his following addendum to his previous email:

 

"Dear Lynn,
 
Please forgive a short addendum to the email which I sent last evening.
 
Staying with simple facts.
 
I've checked my library, and have located, in proper alpha order in the "S" area, the rather beautifully packaged boxed set released in September of 2004 as a four disc set. The Ultimate, consummate Star Wars Trilogy. This is a quality product.
 
The set streets at $56.
 
In December of 2005 you issued a Special Edition without the Bonus disc.
This is street priced at $36, and was apparently aimed toward the less fortunate. It allowed the starving masses who are unable to afford DVD players or food, the ability to own the Star Wars Trilogy.
 
Released as a Special Edition, I would think that it would have been added to the libraries of those see themselves as Star Wars collectors. These folks would now have two sets, which are essentially the same product.
 
One can still purchase either (or both) of these sets.
 
For the wealthy, the four disc edition, and for those with more mouths to feed or more affected by the price of gasoline, the three disc Special Edition.
 
Now, a mere nine months later, LucasFilm wants to give us yet another variant, but this time with something that no one needs, ie. a poor quality version of the original films.
 
While the creation of a proper six disc set would be applauded if it contained quality transfers, this release does not fall into that category.
 
If anyone at LucasFilm actually believes that something nice or something special is being done for "fans," this belief is delusional.
 
I must readily admit that this new set will absolutely sell to those with the "collector" mentality, who will, as of September, own three sets of DVDs.
 
The bottom line here is that if LF is not going to do things properly, then please simply cancel a release which few have requested and no one needs.
 
The films as intended are already available, not once, but twice.
 
If I were running LucasFilm, which I acknowledge that I am not, I would cancel an unnecessary release as opposed to suffer the coming reviews and commentaries which are assured to represent one of the lowest ebbs in the history of home video.
 
With best regards,
 
RAH"

 

For those interested in revisiting old rage, you can check out RAH's lengthy old thread here: http://www.hometheaterforum.com/topic/233484-star-wars-discussion-from-the-bits/

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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msycamore said:

imperialscum said:

When they applied the changes for the 1997 SE, then they actually reduced the size/resolution to fit Laserdisc.

??

If you digitalise 35mm film stock the average resolution will be higher than the 1080p HD. So the digitalised source material has considerably high resolution. When you want to put the digitalised and altered material to Laserdiscs (or DVD, or even Blur-Ray in some cases) you actually have to reduce the resolution of the source format.

真実

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The SE was shown in cinemas though, so the SE changes were created a higher resolution. ;)

That being said though, back in 1997 I don't think scanning 35mm was done at anything higher than 1080p. Given that 1080p wasn't even a standard back then (and considered how "low res" digitally scanned shots from the 90s looked - see Jurassic Park, Forrest Gump, etc.), I doubt that the OT-scans done for the SE are existing in a format that's rivaling modern Blu-rays quality-wise.

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Well they used the scans from 1997 for both DVD and Blu-Ray release (that is scans with added changes). I guarantee you that they didn't scan and restore it again in 2011. And if you look at the picture quality of Blu-Ray release you can get the idea that the scans were high quality. :)

真実

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The '97 SE work was partly done in 2K whereas the new scan in 2004 was done in 1080p. Like Laserschwert said, the '97 SE was done for theatrical exhibition and the resolution of that work has nothing to do with what later happen when making a video release. We are fully aware that Laserdisc doesn't equal 35mm film resolution. This stuff is irrelevant anyway, the question that often comes up is whether they did the '97 "restoration" by actually alter the original film elements without having or making backup material, which is extremely doubtful. It's Lucasfilm marketing speak.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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This article is fascinating, in depth and a dare I say it, a little depressing when you consider all the things that could have been done to the negaive at different stages and at different points of the "restoration"...

http://secrethistoryofstarwars.com/savingstarwars.html

^ An image from the article comparing the original look to the "cleaned" release.

VIZ TOP TIPS! - PARENTS. Impress your children by showing them a floppy disk and telling them it’s a 3D model of a save icon.

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imperialscum said:

Well they used the scans from 1997 for both DVD and Blu-Ray release (that is scans with added changes). I guarantee you that they didn't scan and restore it again in 2011.

Of course they didn't restore it in 2011, that's what a lot of us are complaining about. The DID restore it in 2004 though, and as Lowry stated, that restoration was never meant for anything higher than DVD resolution. And unfortunately it shows in a lot of the shots. So...

imperialscum said:

And if you look at the picture quality of Blu-Ray release you can get the idea that the scans were high quality. :)

... I would argue with that.

msycamore said:

The '97 SE work was partly done in 2K whereas the new scan in 2004 was done in 1080p.

Just a reminder, 2K and 1080p is pretty much the same resolution.

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Every time I see this thread with unread messages, I get excited.  Then I see it's a conversation I've seen in countless other threads about whether or not Lucasfilm destroyed the original film.  It's interesting stuff for sure, but it's disappointing that it's not the deleted scene news I keep hoping for :(

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RAH's letter begs the question: just how good/bad would the '85 IP have looked if it'd been re-scanned in 2006?

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Fang Zei said:

RAH's letter begs the question: just how good/bad would the '85 IP have looked if it'd been re-scanned in 2006?

As the IP was a good enough source for the '97 restoration, I would guess it would have been good enough for making an anamorphic DVD release.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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darth_ender said:

Every time I see this thread with unread messages, I get excited.  Then I see it's a conversation I've seen in countless other threads about whether or not Lucasfilm destroyed the original film.  It's interesting stuff for sure, but it's disappointing that it's not the deleted scene news I keep hoping for :(

I'm sorry this isn't news, but it is support. More info and less debate would be great.

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I know.  But it doesn't have to permeate every thread.  It's not like it's the end of the world for me that this discussion is going on, just that I'm really excited about the actual news contained in the thread, and it's a bummer when I find that the conversation is covering the same stuff I've read before.

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Well better a discussion about old stuff than a dead forum I guess.

真実

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Are we going to need a kindle, or some other pricey device I don't currently own just to read these things?

Where were you in '77?

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SilverWook said:

Are we going to need a kindle, or some other pricey device I don't currently own just to read these things?

Excatly what I'd like to know.

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I don't own a kindle or iPad either, but I have bought all 3 hardcover books (ROTJ yet to be shipped, of course).

Hopefully, someone will be kind enough to share the bonus dailies and deleted scenes on a private YouTube channel or something. :-/

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Well, according to Lucasfilm the original films are now basically deleted scenes, so I guess we were still on topic. ;)

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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pittrek said:

SilverWook said:

Are we going to need a kindle, or some other pricey device I don't currently own just to read these things?

Excatly what I'd like to know.

If you have a computer, you've already got the bare minimum hardware you need, it's just a lot more comfortable reading these things on a smart phone, tablet, or e-reader. Commercial e-books are usually either a .epub or a .mobi, and there's reader apps freely available for both. Amazon even has a free kindle app for basically every device you can imagine.

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But these are "e-books" with multi media features like video and pictures inlcuded. The usual suspects of e-book formats like epub or mobi (which is pretty much an older version of epub) are based on HTML and not designed to contain video material and are already struggling with just displaying images properly. So I'm pretty sure these are more like completely self-contained "apps" - hopefully not just for Apple devices.