Morality--read the first post before posting or judging my posts — Page 5

moviefreakedmind said:

Lord Haseo said:
in my point of view non existence is preferable to a meager one. But that’s pretty much a completely separate topic.

Yeah, we can’t agree on that one.

I don’t agree with it either, but as I’ve said you can’t really use this in abortion cases. You are looking at it from a viewpoint of “I’m glad I wasn’t aborted” but it doesn’t work that way. Any aborted fetus has no memory, experience, or understanding of anything that has happened or will happen.

Furthermore, the only ones who have any understanding of how things might happen in the future for that fetus are the parents, and they’re the only ones that should get to decide if that future is one worth pursing.

moviefreakedmind said:

TV’s Frink said:

Furthermore, the only ones who have any understanding of how things might happen in the future for that fetus are the parents, and they’re the only ones that should get to decide if that future is one worth pursing.

Not wanting their parents to make decisions for them is what motivates people to hitchhike to New York City at age 15.

If you can find a fetus that can hitchhike, I’ll reconsider my stance.

Jeebus said:

What do you consider to be a meager existence?

What I consider to be a meager existence is an existence based on having a mundane job (or no job at all) and doing nothing to further the evolution of society/humanity as a whole. Sadly, this applies to most of humanity and before anyone says anything this certainly applies to me as well. I’m 21 years old and am merely a construction worker but I aspire to make some type of impact. I don’t know how I’ll do it but if I don’t my life will have been of no consequence.

Lord Haseo said:

Jeebus said:

What do you consider to be a meager existence?

…I’m 21 years old and am merely a construction worker but I aspire to make some type of impact. I don’t know how I’ll do it but if I don’t my life will have been of no consequence.

You mean…other than the buildings you helped build that will remain standing after you’re gone.

Darth Id said:

Lord Haseo said:

Jeebus said:

What do you consider to be a meager existence?

…I’m 21 years old and am merely a construction worker but I aspire to make some type of impact. I don’t know how I’ll do it but if I don’t my life will have been of no consequence.

You mean…other than the buildings you helped build that will remain standing after you’re gone.

I’m relatively new and all I’m helping to build is 2 Walmarts and a Hobby Lobby. I’m incredulous to believe those will still be standing after 25 years.

People need food and clothes. And hobbies.

TV’s Frink said:

People need food and clothes. And hobbies.

Of course but you can do all those things and still have a job or do other deeds that are worthy of note.

Lord Haseo said:

TV’s Frink said:

People need food and clothes. And hobbies.

Of course but you can do all those things and still have a job or do other deeds that are worthy of note.

I don’t understand. You’re building stores where people can buy the things they need. Seems productive to me.

TV’s Frink said:

Lord Haseo said:

TV’s Frink said:

People need food and clothes. And hobbies.

Of course but you can do all those things and still have a job or do other deeds that are worthy of note.

I don’t understand. You’re building stores where people can buy the things they need. Seems productive to me.

For themselves…

Lord Haseo said:

Jeebus said:

What do you consider to be a meager existence?

What I consider to be a meager existence is an existence based on having a mundane job (or no job at all) and doing nothing to further the evolution of society/humanity as a whole.

I hate to be a downer, but 90% of humanity does nothing to further the evolution of society/humanity as a whole. Just try to further the lives of those you have direct impact on.

TV’s Frink said:

I hate to be a downer, but 90% of humanity does nothing to further the evolution of society/humanity as a whole. Just try to further the lives of those you have direct impact on.

Lord Haseo said:
Sadly, this applies to most of humanity and before anyone says anything this certainly applies to me as well.

I can’t help but to think that a lot of influential and wealthy individuals (who became that way due to hard work alone) have adopted this worldview. If so then it has some merit.

Tyrphanax said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Lord Haseo: You have to throw that bullshit worldview of yours straight into the dumpster, because it’s a bunch of crap. Do what you do and be satisfied with it.

Resign yourself to the bottom rung?

That’s what it sounds like. Don’t hate on Haseo for aiming high.

Lord Haseo said:

RicOlie_2 said:
What does fully developed mean? The frontal lobe does not fully develop until one’s late twenties. Are people not people before then?

Yeah, I probably used the term “fully developed” wrong. What I mean is human that is fully (or close to it) developed in the womb and is ready (or close to it) to life

What do you mean by “life”? A fetus is objectively alive.

Who decides why a line should be drawn between various trimesters, and not, say, at conception, when a unique genetic code is created?

Because there are a great many developments that happen post conception that actually makes the fetus more than just semi living genetic code. So to speak.

If development is continuous, where can a line be drawn? And who decides what developments make the embryo/fetus/baby more than a “semi-living genetic code”?

Why should the helpless fetus/embryo have even its chance to have a life taken from it? Adoption is also a possibility, though I admit that it is not that simple.

With adoption a person can be put in a toxic environment in which they can be abused. Furthermore they can have feelings of inadequacy and abandonment.

I don’t think that argument holds much water. This sort of thing doesn’t just happen in adoption, and all the people I have met who were adopted were given as much love as care as if they were being raised by their own parents (assuming they wanted the child). It’s a much better deal than being killed in the womb, in my limited experience.

And again why should a woman lose more control over her body? It’s as if she’s being punished for being raped. How I see it it’s pretty much telling her “I know you’ve been through a traumatic event and all but deal with it for the sake of the unborn baby you did not ask for”

This argument isn’t a bad one when the pregnancy is terminated early on. Whether the woman likes it or not, however, the embryo/fetus is a separate human being from herself, and I don’t believe it should be her choice to end its life. My argument is founded largely on the concept that every human life has equal value, regardless of what stage or condition it is in, and that only God can make the decision to end a life. If you don’t agree on that point, we have to agree to disagree.

Regardless, less than 1% of abortions are due to rape, so it is a relatively minor issue compared to “convenience” abortions, or those which occur due to the mother’s unreadiness, or lack of desire to have a child.

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html

This thread is depressing me.

I guess it’s time for me to listen to this song on repeat until I become one with my misery.

TV’s Frink said:

That’s funny you think I used a non-credible source, because the Salon article links directly to the same jama paper you linked to. First sentence in the “Conclusion” section:

Evidence regarding the capacity for fetal pain is limited but indicates that fetal perception of pain is unlikely before the third trimester.

My bad, then. When I saw what site I was on, I only skimmed the article.

I’m sure you’ll consider NPR a biased source as well, but you might want to read up a little on “partial-birth abortions” (politically charged term btw) to see how often they’re done. (granted this is 10 years old but I’d be surprised if the percentages have changed much)

http://www.npr.org/2006/02/21/5168163/partial-birth-abortion-separating-fact-from-spin

According to the Alan Guttmacher Institute, an abortion-rights research group that conducts surveys of the nation’s abortion doctors, about 15,000 abortions were performed in the year 2000 on women 20 weeks or more along in their pregnancies; the vast majority were between the 20th and 24th week. Of those, only about 2,200 D&X abortions were performed, or about 0.2 percent of the 1.3 million abortions believed to be performed that year.

And contrary to the claims of some abortion opponents, most such abortions do not take place in the third trimester of pregnancy, or after fetal “viability.” Indeed, when some members of Congress tried to amend the bill to ban only those procedures that take place after viability, abortion opponents complained that would leave most of the procedures legal.

2,200 partial-birth abortions per year and 15,000 late-term abortions is still a lot. I didn’t mean to imply that I thought they were common, though I did think the numbers were a bit higher for third trimester and partial birth abortions (I thought it was something closer to 5% for the former and just a bit less for the latter).

By the way, look how fewer abortions are occurring. This is great news…no one want abortions. I just want the option available.

I wouldn’t say no one–I’ve encountered people who advocate them as a form of population control–but it is indeed great news. One thing we need to do more of is fix the underlying problems that lead to abortions, and hopefully the decreased numbers are a sign that progress is being made in those areas.

Lord Haseo said:

moviefreakedmind said:

yhwx said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Lord Haseo said:

With adoption a person can be put in a toxic environment in which they can be abused. Furthermore they can have feelings of inadequacy and abandonment.

Life’s a bitch.

Huh. So you got sexually harassed at work today. Welp, can’t do anything about that. Life’s a bitch.

Using “they might have it rough” as an excuse for abortion isn’t legitimate to me. Essentially, it is saying that there isn’t anything you can do. Just terminate it.

I’m sure there are a lot of people who would prefer death over living life with the cards they have been dealt. Further more in my point of view non existence is preferable to a meager one. But that’s pretty much a completely separate topic.

Is it fair to make that decision for them? I know a lot of people who have lived through serious difficulties and are happy to be alive. Some people have lived miserable lives for the first 20 years of their lives, but decent and even good lives after that.

moviefreakedmind said:

Let’s say we make an exception for that. What about abortions that are for the sake of not wanting a child?

Again, my answer depends on the circumstances. Circumstances such as a condom ripping, the birth control is inept and a guy either forcibly or secretly nutting inside of a girl warrants an abortion if that is the woman’s desire.

This site references a survey that reports 17% of women who had abortions as having stated it was because contraception failed (I’m not sure exactly how reliable the survey was, but I’ve heard similar numbers before):

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html

If that is indeed the case, and even if it’s just something like 6% of women aborting their pregnancy for that reason, does it not seem safer just to abstain from sex if one absolutely cannot have a child?

TV’s Frink said:

RicOlie_2 said:

Why should the helpless fetus/embryo have even its chance to have a life taken from it?

Because it’s just a potential person at the beginning. And it doesn’t know any better, it won’t miss out on anything, etc.

It’s easy to say “what if I was aborted!” but it’s a false argument.

Fair enough, though I disagree on it being just a potential person. I don’t see how it’s significantly different than euthanizing a baby because a situation has changed and one can no longer support the child. Granted, the cases in which this would happen are rare, but that’s illegal, while abortions at 40 weeks are not (where I live anyway). I know you don’t support late-term abortions, but my question is, I guess, why a baby is more than just a potential person.

Darth Id said:

Lord Haseo said:

Jeebus said:

What do you consider to be a meager existence?

…I’m 21 years old and am merely a construction worker but I aspire to make some type of impact. I don’t know how I’ll do it but if I don’t my life will have been of no consequence.

You mean…other than the buildings you helped build that will remain standing after you’re gone.

Hey, Darth Id said something kind of nice! Why don’t you make more posts like this?