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I think the later the pregnancy, the more important the reason for the abortion. At eight weeks, I don’t think the reason matters.
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How so?
Morality--read the first post before posting or judging my posts — Page 4
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There are a metric shitload of decision points that people pass by before they hit the abortion one at the very, very end of that line.
People don’t go out to have an abortion for fun. They’re either being let down along the line of decision making by themselves and/or our (frankly shit) sexual education system, or there are complications with the pregnancy and it is deemed to be in the best interest of all parties to terminate. The point is that there are reasons, and as Frink said, the later it happens, most likely the more valid the reasons.
It needs to be allowed for the above reasons, but I’ll make it clear that nobody actually wants to have to go through that process.
Keep Circulating the Tapes.
END OF LINE
(It hasn’t happened yet)
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There are a metric shitload of decision points that people pass by before they hit the abortion one at the very, very end of that line.
People don’t go out to have an abortion for fun. They’re either being let down along the line of decision making by themselves and/or our (frankly shit) sexual education system, or there are complications with the pregnancy and it is deemed to be in the best interest of all parties to terminate. The point is that there are reasons, and as Frink said, the later it happens, most likely the more valid the reasons.
It needs to be allowed for the above reasons, but I’ll make it clear that nobody actually wants to have to go through that process.
I’m sure nobody wants to, but like I said, not wanting to have a child is not a valid reason for an abortion in my book.
The Person in Question
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Of course, if you’re a guy and you don’t want to have a child, you literally have to do nothing. At all. Women have been biologically given the burden of being stuck with the consequences. It’s easy to tell them what they should and shouldn’t do when you yourself are burden less.
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Of course, if you’re a guy and you don’t want to have a child, you literally have to do nothing. At all. Women have been biologically given the burden of being stuck with the consequences. It’s easy to tell them what they should and shouldn’t do when you yourself are burden less.
Yeah, I know, but if you simply don’t want a child, then don’t have unprotected sex. I know that birth control isn’t always effective, but shit happens.
The Person in Question
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Well at least to me a fetus is not really a person yet. Also let’s not forget that some abortions are for women impregnated by their rapist so in that case I think it’s definitely justified to get an abortion.
What makes a person a person? Who decides what falls under that definition? Is it justifiable to subject a fetus to the kind of pain that they experience during an abortion? Would not the same done to another non-person, such as a puppy, be considered horrific cruelty?
http://www.salon.com/2013/08/07/fetal_pain_is_a_lie_how_phony_science_took_over_the_abortion_debate/
Interesting, though you may want to get in the habit of finding more credible sources, not tabloids, to substantiate your claims, like:
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=201429&resultclick=1
(The first Google result when I searched “fetal pain”).
Partial-birth abortions are still pretty horrific. I also suspect that people would think it cruel to perform saline injections on fish, or to cut them to pieces while they are still living, despite their inability to feel pain in the way we do.
In the case of rape, why is it justifiable to end a third party’s life (that of a not fully developed human being who is completely dependent on his mother, but that also describes a one-year old) because they are a product of violence done to you?
Do you eat meat? Those animals feel more pain that most of the aborted fetuses, which are done at 20 weeks or earlier. How can you justify ending those animal’s lives simply for your pleasure?
I think their lives should be ended as painlessly as possible. Note that without human protection, these animals would have to deal with the far more painful diseases and carnivorous animals, such as wolves, that nature has to offer.
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Well at least to me a fetus is not really a person yet. Also let’s not forget that some abortions are for women impregnated by their rapist so in that case I think it’s definitely justified to get an abortion.
What makes a person a person?
To me a person is a human who is fully developed or at least close to it and birthed into the world.
What does fully developed mean? The frontal lobe does not fully develop until one’s late twenties. Are people not people before then?
Who decides what falls under that definition?
I’m pretty sure the people who have knowledge of trimesters and other things of the like.
Who decides why a line should be drawn between various trimesters, and not, say, at conception, when a unique genetic code is created?
In the case of rape, why is it justifiable to end a third party’s life (that of a not fully developed human being who is completely dependent on his mother, but that also describes a one-year old) because they are a product of violence done to you?
Because the woman didn’t choose to partake in sexual intercourse and the woman didn’t choose to bear a child. I don’t think a raped woman should have to take on such a huge responsibility because of mere misfortune. I mean wouldn’t these woman had enough control taken away from them?
Why should the helpless fetus/embryo have even its chance to have a life taken from it? Adoption is also a possibility, though I admit that it is not that simple.
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RicOlie_2 said:
What does fully developed mean? The frontal lobe does not fully develop until one’s late twenties. Are people not people before then?
Yeah, I probably used the term “fully developed” wrong. What I mean is human that is fully (or close to it) developed in the womb and is ready (or close to it) to life
Who decides why a line should be drawn between various trimesters, and not, say, at conception, when a unique genetic code is created?
Because there are a great many developments that happen post conception that actually makes the fetus more than just semi living genetic code. So to speak.
Why should the helpless fetus/embryo have even its chance to have a life taken from it? Adoption is also a possibility, though I admit that it is not that simple.
With adoption a person can be put in a toxic environment in which they can be abused. Furthermore they can have feelings of inadequacy and abandonment.
And again why should a woman lose more control over her body? It’s as if she’s being punished for being raped. How I see it it’s pretty much telling her “I know you’ve been through a traumatic event and all but deal with it for the sake of the unborn baby you did not ask for”
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Well at least to me a fetus is not really a person yet. Also let’s not forget that some abortions are for women impregnated by their rapist so in that case I think it’s definitely justified to get an abortion.
What makes a person a person? Who decides what falls under that definition? Is it justifiable to subject a fetus to the kind of pain that they experience during an abortion? Would not the same done to another non-person, such as a puppy, be considered horrific cruelty?
http://www.salon.com/2013/08/07/fetal_pain_is_a_lie_how_phony_science_took_over_the_abortion_debate/
Interesting, though you may want to get in the habit of finding more credible sources, not tabloids, to substantiate your claims, like:
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=201429&resultclick=1
(The first Google result when I searched “fetal pain”).
Partial-birth abortions are still pretty horrific. I also suspect that people would think it cruel to perform saline injections on fish, or to cut them to pieces while they are still living, despite their inability to feel pain in the way we do.
In the case of rape, why is it justifiable to end a third party’s life (that of a not fully developed human being who is completely dependent on his mother, but that also describes a one-year old) because they are a product of violence done to you?
Do you eat meat? Those animals feel more pain that most of the aborted fetuses, which are done at 20 weeks or earlier. How can you justify ending those animal’s lives simply for your pleasure?
I think their lives should be ended as painlessly as possible. Note that without human protection, these animals would have to deal with the far more painful diseases and carnivorous animals, such as wolves, that nature has to offer.
Look up fish pain and you will get very mixed results, follow the trail one way and you get animal rights activists follow it in the other direction and you will find the fishing industry. Science is divided. All I can say is anything emotionally that humans do can be seen in the animal kingdom. Even some higher skilled activity like engineering can be found in the arachnid and insect worlds. Genuine cruelty like cetaceans torturing seals to something like this https://youtu.be/ntIBAzO3xV8 convinced me that the only difference of significance between us and other animals is we can write down our thoughts and share them down the generations. A Zygote feels no pain a more developed fetus does but it can’t suffer. Clearly a penguin can suffer. A penguin therefore is more of a person than a human fetus.
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Well at least to me a fetus is not really a person yet. Also let’s not forget that some abortions are for women impregnated by their rapist so in that case I think it’s definitely justified to get an abortion.
What makes a person a person? Who decides what falls under that definition? Is it justifiable to subject a fetus to the kind of pain that they experience during an abortion? Would not the same done to another non-person, such as a puppy, be considered horrific cruelty?
http://www.salon.com/2013/08/07/fetal_pain_is_a_lie_how_phony_science_took_over_the_abortion_debate/
Interesting, though you may want to get in the habit of finding more credible sources, not tabloids, to substantiate your claims, like:
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=201429&resultclick=1
(The first Google result when I searched “fetal pain”).
Partial-birth abortions are still pretty horrific. I also suspect that people would think it cruel to perform saline injections on fish, or to cut them to pieces while they are still living, despite their inability to feel pain in the way we do.
That’s funny you think I used a non-credible source, because the Salon article links directly to the same jama paper you linked to. First sentence in the “Conclusion” section:
Evidence regarding the capacity for fetal pain is limited but indicates that fetal perception of pain is unlikely before the third trimester.
I’m sure you’ll consider NPR a biased source as well, but you might want to read up a little on “partial-birth abortions” (politically charged term btw) to see how often they’re done. (granted this is 10 years old but I’d be surprised if the percentages have changed much)
http://www.npr.org/2006/02/21/5168163/partial-birth-abortion-separating-fact-from-spin
According to the Alan Guttmacher Institute, an abortion-rights research group that conducts surveys of the nation’s abortion doctors, about 15,000 abortions were performed in the year 2000 on women 20 weeks or more along in their pregnancies; the vast majority were between the 20th and 24th week. Of those, only about 2,200 D&X abortions were performed, or about 0.2 percent of the 1.3 million abortions believed to be performed that year.
And contrary to the claims of some abortion opponents, most such abortions do not take place in the third trimester of pregnancy, or after fetal “viability.” Indeed, when some members of Congress tried to amend the bill to ban only those procedures that take place after viability, abortion opponents complained that would leave most of the procedures legal.
JEDIT: Here’s more recent numbers (most recent I could find) from the CDC.
In 2012, 699,202 legal induced abortions were reported to CDC from 49 reporting areas. The abortion rate for 2012 was 13.2 abortions per 1,000 women aged 15–44 years, and the abortion ratio was 210 abortions per 1,000 live births.
Compared with 2011, the total number and ratio of reported abortions for 2012 decreased 4%, and the abortion rate decreased 5%. Additionally, from 2003 to 2012, the number, rate, and ratio of reported abortions decreased 17%, 18%, and 14%, respectively. Given the large decreases in the total number, rate, and ratio of reported abortions from 2011 to 2012, in combination with decreases that occurred during 2008–2011, all three measures reached historic lows.
Women in their twenties accounted for the majority of abortions in 2012 and throughout the period of analysis. The majority of abortions in 2012 took place early in gestation: 91.4% of abortions were performed at ≤13 weeks’ gestation; a smaller number of abortions (7.2%) were performed at 14–20 weeks’ gestation, and even fewer (1.3%) were performed at ≥21 weeks’ gestation. In 2012, 20.8% of all abortions were medical abortions. The percentage of abortions reported as early medical abortions increased 10% from 2011 to 2012. Source: MMWR. 2015;64(10).
By the way, look how fewer abortions are occurring. This is great news…no one want abortions. I just want the option available.
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Why should the helpless fetus/embryo have even its chance to have a life taken from it?
Because it’s just a potential person at the beginning. And it doesn’t know any better, it won’t miss out on anything, etc.
It’s easy to say “what if I was aborted!” but it’s a false argument.
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Of course, if you’re a guy and you don’t want to have a child, you literally have to do nothing. At all. Women have been biologically given the burden of being stuck with the consequences. It’s easy to tell them what they should and shouldn’t do when you yourself are burden less.
Yeah, I know, but if you simply don’t want a child, then don’t have unprotected sex. I know that birth control isn’t always effective, but shit happens.
I know you won’t answer me because you’re pouting, but I wonder what your personal situation is, especially since you seem to be 100% against any abortions for any circumstance…at least I’m led to believe that by the blanket statements you always make. Have you had sex? Do you have kids? Have you fathered a fetus that will not survive outside the womb?
Have you ever been in any situation you tell others “too bad” or “shit happens” about?
I’m guessing if nothing else, you haven’t been raped. I wonder if that might give you a different perspective.
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With adoption a person can be put in a toxic environment in which they can be abused. Furthermore they can have feelings of inadequacy and abandonment.
Life’s a bitch.
And again why should a woman lose more control over her body? It’s as if she’s being punished for being raped. How I see it it’s pretty much telling her “I know you’ve been through a traumatic event and all but deal with it for the sake of the unborn baby you did not ask for”
Let’s say we make an exception for that. What about abortions that are for the sake of not wanting a child?
The Person in Question
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With adoption a person can be put in a toxic environment in which they can be abused. Furthermore they can have feelings of inadequacy and abandonment.
Life’s a bitch.
Huh. So you got sexually harassed at work today. Welp, can’t do anything about that. Life’s a bitch.
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With adoption a person can be put in a toxic environment in which they can be abused. Furthermore they can have feelings of inadequacy and abandonment.
Life’s a bitch.
Huh. So you got sexually harassed at work today. Welp, can’t do anything about that. Life’s a bitch.
Using “they might have it rough” as an excuse for abortion isn’t legitimate to me. Essentially, it is saying that there isn’t anything you can do. Just terminate it.
The Person in Question
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I know you won’t answer me because you’re pouting
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With adoption a person can be put in a toxic environment in which they can be abused. Furthermore they can have feelings of inadequacy and abandonment.
Life’s a bitch.
Huh. So you got sexually harassed at work today. Welp, can’t do anything about that. Life’s a bitch.
Using “they might have it rough” as an excuse for abortion isn’t legitimate to me. Essentially, it is saying that there isn’t anything you can do. Just terminate it.
I’m sure there are a lot of people who would prefer death over living life with the cards they have been dealt. Further more in my point of view non existence is preferable to a meager one. But that’s pretty much a completely separate topic.
Let’s say we make an exception for that. What about abortions that are for the sake of not wanting a child?
Again, my answer depends on the circumstances. Circumstances such as a condom ripping, the birth control is inept and a guy either forcibly or secretly nutting inside of a girl warrants an abortion if that is the woman’s desire.
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secretly nutting inside of a girl
Oh god why.
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And I’m sure you wouldn’t have had any problems if I had swapped “nutting” for “cumming”
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I know you won’t answer me because you’re pouting, but I wonder what your personal situation is, especially since you seem to be 100% against any abortions for any circumstance…at least I’m led to believe that by the blanket statements you always make.
I don’t care to share much personal information, but this is important to respond to. I’m not against abortion in medically necessary cases, and I don’t recall ever saying that I was.
Have you had sex?
It’s none of your business, but yes, and I regret a certain amount of it.
Do you have kids? Have you fathered a fetus that will not survive outside the womb?
No.
Have you ever been in any situation you tell others “too bad” or “shit happens” about?
Yes, I’ve made many terrible decisions and gotten myself into many horrible situations. Situations that have been the death of better men than me; by some miracle I’m still here. No one was there to catch me when I fell.
I’ve found this statement to be true (at least most of time):
“City streets don’t have much pity, and when you’re down that’s where you’ll stay.” - Joe Walsh
I have sympathy but I can’t change how the world works. Life is rough and that’s a reality that everyone needs to come to terms with, pretending otherwise is foolish. I know that sounds really heartless and cold, but oh well. I guess you don’t understand my perspective. 😉
I’m guessing if nothing else, you haven’t been raped. I wonder if that might give you a different perspective.
Yeah, it probably would. There’s plenty of things I (as well as you) haven’t gone through that would change our perspectives.
The Person in Question
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Lord Haseo said:
in my point of view non existence is preferable to a meager one. But that’s pretty much a completely separate topic.
Yeah, we can’t agree on that one.
The Person in Question
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Which is fine. I get told I’m crazy at least 80% of the time I say that.
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What do you consider to be a meager existence?
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answers
Ok, thanks for answering and apologies for putting words in your mouth.