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Luke's ROTS Review (plot holes included)

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okay so while everyone was dying to ask me what i thought of the movie when i got home, when i went to work, or just on the net in general i still have yet to give a full answer until now…

It was good. Great? Not at all.
I would say it was better than AOTC but not by much.

reasons…

General Grievous (need i say more)
Anakin giving into the darkside so quickly
Palpatine slaughtering 3 Jedi’s without hardly breaking a sweat when they come to arrest him (sorry but jedi’s clearly suck in these movies)
The numerous decapitations in the movies (i guess they ran out of ideas on how to kill someone??)
Obi Wan riding a lizard
Darth Vader walking like Frankenstein at the end and screaming “NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO” (wow how many times have we seen that before)
and this movie couldnt have ended on a more pathetic scene… (we all know what im talking about “binary with lars”)
i dont care who says different… i could almost see George beside me nuging me saying “huh huh… get it? we’ll be seeing that in the next movie” BLAHHH!!!

however…

I thought the acting was a general improvement in the movie… on all parts… (Hayden was still crap but he was tolerable)
The relationship between anakin and padme i had a real appreciation for
The jokes werent so childish and in your face
GREAT ACTION (obviously)

But the real reason i started this thread was to ask 2 questions…

1. What was the reaction at your theater when the movie ended? (cheered, applause, booing?)

I was absolutly stunned when at the end of the movie the crowd just began to booooo. And im not talking about a 1 second boo, i mean a full fledged BOOOOOOOOOOOOO from almost all members of the audience. I’ve never attended a Star Wars movie that had been booed.

2. did anyone else notice 2 major plot holes … if you want to call them that…

  • When Luke asks Leia if she remembers her mother “her real mother” she says yes. She continues to say that she was kind, very beautiful, but sad…

didnt Padme die after Leia was born??
now if your telling me… that she remembers that from when Padme named her before she died im gonna howl… because theres no way you would remember as a baby if someone was sad or not…??? i dont even think a baby would know what sad is…

ANYWAY

  • ANH Ben says to Luke “your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough” (about anakin’s lightsaber)

maybe its just me… i dont remember him saying that… do you?
and if your gonna tell me he said it off screen… how would Anakin have known he was having a son???

So in closing do i feel that this movie ranks up there with the OT. Unfortunatly not.
Would i be able to watch it again and let it have a tie with the OT (unlike TPM and AOTC) maybe.

But let it be known. The Prequel Trilogy will never be Star Wars to me.

Skywalker out!

"Never. I'll never turn to the darkside. You've failed your highness. I am a jedi, like my father before me."
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Both showing had cheering and applause.

I believe the line was, "Your father would've wanted you to have this". Though maybe I'm remembering wrong. I think he meant it as a formality. Just a roundabout way of saying, "I have this for you."


Made for IE Forum's Episode III theme month - May 2005.

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Originally posted by: Luke Skywalker
okay so while everyone was dying to ask me what i thought of the movie when i got home, when i went to work, or just on the net in general i still have yet to give a full answer until now...

Anakin giving into the darkside so quickly

Because the fine line between good and evil exists, giving in so quickly wouldn't be a problem. Padme's delivery was to be soon, and if he hoped to save her, he would need to act quickly.

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Palpatine slaughtering 3 Jedi's without hardly breaking a sweat when they come to arrest him (sorry but jedi's clearly suck in these movies)

Those Jedi did die quickly, but even Yoda couldn't beat Palp. Of course, they could have given them 5 minutes to die, but it would have wasted time that was needed elsewhere.

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The numerous decapitations in the movies (i guess they ran out of ideas on how to kill someone??)

Riiiiiight, because the same thing happening over and over again didn't happen in the first 3 films, let alone all 6. Running themes tie the films together.

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Obi Wan riding a lizard

Yeah, much worse than Taun Tauns :rolleyes

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Darth Vader walking like Frankenstein at the end and screaming "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" (wow how many times have we seen that before)

An homage to Frankenstein, much like the Jedi deaths were an homage to the Godfather. I see no problem with it.

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and this movie couldnt have ended on a more pathetic scene... (we all know what im talking about "binary with lars")
i dont care who says different... i could almost see George beside me nuging me saying "huh huh... get it? we'll be seeing that in the next movie" BLAHHH!!!

Again, imagery that ties the two trilogies together. What other image would you have ended with?

_________________________________________________________________

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But the real reason i started this thread was to ask 2 questions...

1. What was the reaction at your theater when the movie ended? (cheered, applause, booing?)

I was absolutly stunned when at the end of the movie the crowd just began to booooo. And im not talking about a 1 second boo, i mean a full fledged BOOOOOOOOOOOOO from almost all members of the audience. I've never attended a Star Wars movie that had been booed.

As I said in another thread, I've had 5 showings since Midnight, ranging from 40 people to 500 people and ALL have had rousing applause, some standing. People laughed when they should, clapped when they should and some cried during the drama scenes. The crowd was FULLY into it.

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2. did anyone else notice 2 major plot holes .... if you want to call them that...

- When Luke asks Leia if she remembers her mother "her real mother" she says yes. She continues to say that she was kind, very beautiful, but sad...

didnt Padme die after Leia was born??
now if your telling me... that she remembers that from when Padme named her before she died im gonna howl.. because theres no way you would remember as a baby if someone was sad or not....??? i dont even think a baby would know what sad is....

I would imagine, that if we can believe that those 'strong with the force' can sense others emotions, then Leia could sense the emotions, whether it be at the earliest moment of life of the person she would be most connected with at any time of her life. Like people play music for their babies in the womb because it is to have an effect on their development, I have no problem suspending belief and allowing Leia to have memories of her mother.

And you have a problem with the PT contradicting itself, but don't bring up how 'conviently' Lucas explains the contradictions in the OT?

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ANYWAY

- ANH Ben says to Luke "your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough" (about anakin's lightsaber)

maybe its just me... i dont remember him saying that... do you?
and if your gonna tell me he said it off screen.... how would Anakin have known he was having a son???


Because Obi Wan doesn't EVER lie to Luke, or bend the truth. I would think, that if Anakin was excited about his child, he would have one day wanted him to have the weapon, if you look at it from 'a certain point of view'.


Your opinion is yours, and I'm not saying you are wrong in the least. Just giving you some feedback from someone who actually liked the film.
The Jedi are all but extinct.......
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Obiwan was always very formal in that manner.
You'll see that a lot in old martial arts masters.

///
Fine, mister Lucas, while you're at it why dont you replace Lando with will smith?
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Originally posted by: Luke Skywalker
Darth Vader walking like Frankenstein at the end and screaming "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" (wow how many times have we seen that before)


The NOOOO was a little too much, but the Frankenstein walk was intentional. Lucas said in an interview I read a week ago that Hayden complained to him about how bulky and awkward the costume was and that he was having trouble moving in it. Lucas said "good" because he wanted it to look like someone who had just come out of major surgery with replacement limbs who was walking in a big, bulky armored suit for the first time which is exactly what it was supposed to be.

I agree with GL (God forbid, I know). I think it was well done and well thought out. The scream on the other hand...

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Originally posted by: Luke Skywalker
When Luke asks Leia if she remembers her mother "her real mother" she says yes. She continues to say that she was kind, very beautiful, but sad...

didnt Padme die after Leia was born??
now if your telling me... that she remembers that from when Padme named her before she died im gonna howl.. because theres no way you would remember as a baby if someone was sad or not....??? i dont even think a baby would know what sad is....


I explained this just a few minutes ago in another thread. Here goes again...

it's possible that they were created memories. I wonder how much of my childhood are legitimate memories and how much were created by my brain in response to photos I have seen and stories I've been told about events. It's possible that she created the image of her mother based on stories she heard and photos that she saw. No, Bail and his wife were not likely to have pictures of Padme around, but she was a Queen and a Senator so historical records would have her image in there somewhere along with rough accounts of her life. The rest could be Bail's description of her always being sad. Which she was a lot of the time when they were together because they watched together as the Republic crumbled and the galaxy fell into civil war.

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Originally posted by: Luke Skywalker
- ANH Ben says to Luke "your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough" (about anakin's lightsaber)

maybe its just me... i dont remember him saying that... do you?
and if your gonna tell me he said it off screen.... how would Anakin have known he was having a son???


A very small nit to pick. Isn't it obvious that Obi-Wan was trying to protect Luke and give him the impression that his father was a great man? He doesn't want Luke to know that Anakin and Vader are one and the same. So he trumps up Anakin to Luke and makes him seem like a great man who fell at the hands of an evil tyrant and whose final thoughts before dying were of his infant son. Pretty simple interpretation I would think.
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"Obi Wan riding a lizard"

"-Yeah, much worse than Taun Tauns :rolleyes"


There was certainly far more focus on the lizard than the taun-taun. I got rather tired of watching it just running and running.

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"i could almost see George beside me nuging me saying "huh huh... get it? we'll be seeing that in the next movie" BLAHHH!!!"

"-Again, imagery that ties the two trilogies together. What other image would you have ended with?"


Agreed. If the films had been made in order, I doubt this complaint would ever have been raised.

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"- ANH Ben says to Luke "your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough" (about anakin's lightsaber)

maybe its just me... i dont remember him saying that... do you?"


Maybe Obi-wan should have told Luke the truth about him leaving Anakin to die? Do you think Luke would have gone with him to Alderaan then?

Obi-wan wanted to train Luke the ways of the Force, which included use of a lightsaber. Luke was obviously infatuated with the idea of his father, and Obi-wan used that. In that regard, he's a cunning character throughout the films - especially in the OT. This is not a fair complaint against ROTS.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Last nite it was really funny in the cinema,


A Long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away.

When that came on some wee boy shouted Anakin...........Skywalker and some teen boy screamed "ur ma".


God i laughed myself.



In the scene where Yoda throws the red guards the whole audienece laghed.
"A Jedi can feel the force flow through him".
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I agree mostly with what Hardcore Legend and MeBeJedi said. I dont think there were any problems with the Taun Tauns at all. They used an animal native to Hoth to travel on before they got the Speeders to work in the cold? The lizard imo, moved awkwardly, had an annoying squeal every five minutes (if not more). and had too much focus on it, it was like super lizard.

as far as the Leia having memories of her mother, i agree that Padme should have lived for a few years after her delivery of the twins, even if they were split up right away. Leia is sensative to the force so the force related memories do work, plus its more likely Bail would give Leia info on her real mother than it is that Owen would give any information to Luke about his real parents. Plus, maybe Leia just has that Mother/Daughter connection and Luke has a Father/Son. I mean, Vader couldnt tell that Leia was his daugher until after he found out from Luke. Also Luke could sense Vader's presence whereas Leia wasnt able to. Just an idea.

and yeah, the whole your father wanted you to have this shouldnt even be an issue. I mean, once you find out that Vader was Lukes father in ESB, it should be obvious that Anakin never actually said, here, give this to my son when he's old enough and that it was just Obi-Wan protecting Luke from the truth (think of all the possiblities of what could have happened if luke found out Vader was his father at that point in time) and Obi-Wan also presenting the saber to Luke in a formal way.

-Darth Simon
Why Anakin really turned to the dark side:
"Anakin, You're father I am" - Yoda
"No. No. That's not true! That's impossible!" - Anakin

0100111001101001011011100110101001100001

*touchy people disclaimer*
some or all of the above comments are partially exaggerated to convey a point, none of the comments are meant as personal attacks on anyone mentioned or reference in the above post
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Owen had met Anakin before, just not on his home planet.
Anakin was Obiwan's best friend, and Owen was Obiwan's brother so it sonly natural that they would have met.

///
Fine, mister Lucas, while you're at it why dont you replace Lando with will smith?
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Everyone cheered in my audience. Most people loved it, as far as I could tell.

Jedikev - Everyone in the theater I was in laughed at Yoda throwing the red guards aswell. Personally, I thought it was a little dumb, but not anything dumb enough to ruin an entire movie... Like Jar Jar in TPM.

Also, Luke, both those plotholes have already been talked about in severel topics, along with some others.

-edit-
Also, I saw nothing wrong with the Lizard. I mean, I didn't think it was cool, but it didn't strike me as something to complain about really. You're suppose to focus on the battle and unfolding plot that's going on, and not just think about the lizard. I mean, with or without the lizard, the scene would've been the same.
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"as far as the Leia having memories of her mother, i agree that Padme should have lived for a few years after her delivery of the twins, even if they were split up right away. Leia is sensative to the force so the force related memories do work, plus its more likely Bail would give Leia info on her real mother than it is that Owen would give any information to Luke about his real parents. Plus, maybe Leia just has that Mother/Daughter connection and Luke has a Father/Son. I mean, Vader couldnt tell that Leia was his daugher until after he found out from Luke. Also Luke could sense Vader's presence whereas Leia wasnt able to. Just an idea."

I might point out that anyone who has a problem with Leia remembering her mother solely through Force visions (and indistinct ones at that) must have an equal problem with Luke "recognizing" Yoda's presence on Dagobah.

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LUKE: Still... there's something familiar about this place. I feel like...

STRANGE VOICE: Feel like what?

LUKE: Like we're being watched!

Yoda: This one a long time have I watched. All his life has he looked away...to the future, to the horizon.

Similarly, Leia senses Luke's call, and knows where he is, even though she's never been to the underside of Bespin. The OT clearly establishes these Force visions.

The only reason why I can think that Luke doesn't know his mother's face is because his focus is clearly on his father, as shown early in ANH. He never even seems to think about his mother until talking with Leia in ROTJ. Anakin was very concerned for his mother in TPM, and guess who he has visions of...

"and Owen was Obiwan's brother so it sonly natural that they would have met."

LOL...is that the extent you are going to take it? Now the novelization is canon over ANH as well? Are all the films unneccessary now?

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Originally posted by: Luke Skywalker
okay so while everyone was dying to ask me what i thought of the movie when i got home, when i went to work, or just on the net in general i still have yet to give a full answer until now...

Anakin giving into the darkside so quickly


Agreed. But I was thinking about it, and the thing is: there was NO way to make a Jedi character convincingly go to the dark side on one movie. So, as horrible and rushed as it looked, GL did a good job...


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Palpatine slaughtering 3 Jedi's without hardly breaking a sweat when they come to arrest him (sorry but jedi's clearly suck in these movies)


It's not him moving, it's the force (like Yoda) acting for him and stuff. Although the "matrix jumps" he did were a little bit too much.


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The numerous decapitations in the movies (i guess they ran out of ideas on how to kill someone??)


I didn't even notice... It was OK by me.

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Obi Wan riding a lizard


Well, after all we saw on the prequels, one little lizard was fine...

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Darth Vader walking like Frankenstein at the end and screaming "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" (wow how many times have we seen that before)


Agreed... It was horrible... It would NOT happen if David Prowse had been called back, he IS Vader. Besides, I wished they had, like, 15 more minutes after Vader hets his suit...

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and this movie couldnt have ended on a more pathetic scene... (we all know what im talking about "binary with lars")
i dont care who says different... i could almost see George beside me nuging me saying "huh huh... get it? we'll be seeing that in the next movie" BLAHHH!!!


It was an OK ending, the suns and stuff, a nice reference to the famous ANH scene, but as I said above, they should have a little bit more after the delivery of the babies... More Lars, more Vader, maybe a small dialogue with Tarkin, Yoda going to Dagobah, Obi-Wan arriving at his new home and putting a lightsaber on that box...


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But the real reason i started this thread was to ask 2 questions...

1. What was the reaction at your theater when the movie ended? (cheered, applause, booing?)

I was absolutly stunned when at the end of the movie the crowd just began to booooo. And im not talking about a 1 second boo, i mean a full fledged BOOOOOOOOOOOOO from almost all members of the audience. I've never attended a Star Wars movie that had been booed.


It was stunned, painful silence for a few moments, with one or two people applauding. But mostly silence...


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2. did anyone else notice 2 major plot holes .... if you want to call them that...

- When Luke asks Leia if she remembers her mother "her real mother" she says yes. She continues to say that she was kind, very beautiful, but sad...

didnt Padme die after Leia was born??
now if your telling me... that she remembers that from when Padme named her before she died im gonna howl.. because theres no way you would remember as a baby if someone was sad or not....??? i dont even think a baby would know what sad is....


Maybe Leia is talking about her adoptive mother, maybe she really thought she was an Organa.


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ANYWAY

- ANH Ben says to Luke "your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough" (about anakin's lightsaber)

maybe its just me... i dont remember him saying that... do you?
and if your gonna tell me he said it off screen.... how would Anakin have known he was having a son???



Obi-Wan was one big fat liar on ANH
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
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oops... sry i must have missed them.... but im glad i got a lot of constuctive feedback...

i was just really surprised that the film was booed at the ending...
i mean i didnt think it was amazing but im not sure if it deserved a booing or not....

i only wish i had got it on film

lol
"Never. I'll never turn to the darkside. You've failed your highness. I am a jedi, like my father before me."
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At the midnight screening I attended, there was a deafening silence when the film ended, despite a round of applause at the beginning. There was a lot of negative grumbling as people left the theatre. The biggest laughs were all spurred by the love scenes ... and the "NOOOOO" at the end.
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Actually Asha, that kind of happened at the showing I went to aswell. Not the silence at the end, but people tended to laugh more at the "NOOOOOO" and the dreams of Padme in labor, more so than they laughed at R2 or Yoda.

Everyone got excited at the end though. When Grand Moff Tarken was on screen, the entire theater started whispering and you heard eveyrone almost at the same time go "whoa, it's Tarken!"

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It was an OK ending, the suns and stuff, a nice reference to the famous ANH scene, but as I said above, they should have a little bit more after the delivery of the babies... More Lars, more Vader, maybe a small dialogue with Tarkin, Yoda going to Dagobah, Obi-Wan arriving at his new home and putting a lightsaber on that box...

Although I thought they ended the movie almost right where it needed to end, I must agree that seeing Yoda land on Dagobah would have been cool. And when we saw Tarken, a line like "Welcome aboard, Lord Vader" or something like that would have been nice... But it was still a great ending as it is, imo.
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"Maybe Leia is talking about her adoptive mother, maybe she really thought she was an Organa."

Luke specifically asks about her real mother. If you believe she's confusing her with her adoptive mother, then you've sucked all the emotion out of that scene.

"Everyone got excited at the end though. When Grand Moff Tarken was on screen, the entire theater started whispering and you heard eveyrone almost at the same time go "whoa, it's Tarken!"

Damn! I missed him! Time to go back and look.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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You missed Tarkin? He was standing with the Emperor when Vader walked up at the end. Tarkin walks away. The actor, while not having any lines, does a good job of giving you a 'Tarkin' feel, the way he stands and moves.
The Jedi are all but extinct.......
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Originally posted by: Hardcore Legend
You missed Tarkin? He was standing with the Emperor when Vader walked up at the end. Tarkin walks away. The actor, while not having any lines, does a good job of giving you a 'Tarkin' feel, the way he stands and moves.


Indeed. He did a really good job. And the makeup crew did a really good job of making him look like the actor from ANH, only younger.
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Originally posted by: MeBeJedi
Still... there's something familiar about this place. I feel like...
LOL...is that the extent you are going to take it? Now the novelization is canon over ANH as well? Are all the films unneccessary now?


No, it is canon on the same level AS a new hope. It is cnaon WAY over the prequels.

The books and original trilogy go hand in hand, The prequels contradict both.

///
Fine, mister Lucas, while you're at it why dont you replace Lando with will smith?
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LOL...I see it now. Would you believe I missed the DS as well?

Of course, I stayed up 'til 3:00 A.M. to watch this thing...maybe that's why my review is so positive.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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"No, it is canon on the same level AS a new hope."

I'll say the obvious for you....this is solely your opinion.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Originally posted by: Kam
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Originally posted by: MeBeJedi
Still... there's something familiar about this place. I feel like...
LOL...is that the extent you are going to take it? Now the novelization is canon over ANH as well? Are all the films unneccessary now?


No, it is canon on the same level AS a new hope. It is cnaon WAY over the prequels.

The books and original trilogy go hand in hand, The prequels contradict both.


You're a dick, mate!!

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Originally posted by: Kam
Owen had met Anakin before, just not on his home planet.
Anakin was Obiwan's best friend, and Owen was Obiwan's brother so it sonly natural that they would have met.

///



Huh?!

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Cheers in my audience. I liked the ending with Vader, and Anakin looked really scared as the mask went on, which was a nice touch. As for the scenes between Padme and Anakin, I thought they were atrociously bad.

War does not make one great.

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I've seen it again on saturday with my brother - which was cool because I didn't go out with him in years - and my previous analysis is kept. Good film, and best of the prequels, but NOT as good as any of the OTs.

Two things bugged me on the second view:

1- When Obi-wan is looking at the security holograms, he mentions Palpatine as the "Emperor". How did he know?

2- Anakin didn't look like he really needed the breathing apparatus his suit provides. He was screaming and all... I think Anakin should've been even more deformed/destroyed, unconscious and unable to breath for his own.
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering