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Luke VS the Emperor- What if Vader hadn't been there? — Page 2

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Agreed.  Somewhat, at least.  Naked Palpatine Clones using lightsabres against Luke in DE never bothered me the way that Palpatine having one in the PT did.

But you could say "X in the EU never bothered me quite as much as Y in the PT" about almost anything, so I'm not sure that was worth being said.  ;)

IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!

"[George Lucas] rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone." -skyjedi2005

"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.

Rewrite the Prequels!

 

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xhonzi said the 501st reason I have no interest in the EU:

Naked Palpatine Clones...

 

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It's sooooo hot.

IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!

"[George Lucas] rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone." -skyjedi2005

"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.

Rewrite the Prequels!

 

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So that's why they have no clothes on?  Is this on some planet 10x as hot as Tatooina?

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The slime he was covered in gave him a Barbie Doll crotch and crack so he wasn't entirely naked...not unless the clones were all like Alan Rickman in Dogma.

Palpatine had to make a little sackrifice for eternal life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6Dp2OfIT_M

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 (Edited)

DuracellEnergizer said:

TV's Frink said:

xhonzi said the 501st reason I have no interest in the EU:

Naked Palpatine Clones...

 

 If it's any consolation the naked clones were young and not shriveled old farts.

http://www.jumpgateevo.com/images/competition/22.jpg

;-)

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xhonzi said:

I never really took the time to answer my own question here, so I think I'll pluck this little gem from page 3 and put 'er back on top:

I think Luke would have lost.  And I see two or three scenarios in how he would have lost.

1. Luke would have been presented to the the Emperor.  The Emperor would have tried to turn him- first by talking to him and then attacking him.  (All very much in line with the events of the end of RotJ- except for the absense of Vader)  Luke would have stayed cool, however, and not taken the bait from the Emperor.  The Emperor would then realize that Luke was not going to be turned, so he must be destroyed (again, like the ending of RotJ) and Luke would die.  Perhaps he gets to be a Force Ghosty and hang out with Ben and guide Leia into becoming a Jedi.

2. Luke would have been presented to the Emperor.  Luke would be ready for the clean kill- a proper "light side" way to rid the Galaxy of the Evil Emperor.  But before he gets the chance, the Emperor begins to goad him and make him feel bad/fell mad.  Then he justifies his strikes against the Emperor and his usage of maybe just a little bit of the Dark Side to strike him down.  Luke has the Emperor on the ground and poises to strike him.  He is full of dark side energy. 
2.a  A look of peace crosses Luke's face.  Reluctantly, Luke lowers his arm and shuts down the sabre.  He bends on one knee in front of the fallen Emperor.  The Emperor rises to his feet and demands fealty from young Skywalker.  Luke, corrupted by the Dark Side, swears allegiance to his new master.  He watches as the Emperor returns his attention to the battle out the window.  Luke joins the Emperor as they use the dark side to guide the Empire to victory.
2.b Luke has the Emperor on the ground and poises to strike him.  He tries to push the dark side from his mind.  But his emotions outweigh his thoughts- he angrily swings the sabre and slices the Emperor clean through.  Luke gets ahold of himself.  He has done it.  And it did not, as the Emperor warned, cost him his soul.  He has not only rid the galaxy of the Evil Emperor, but he has used the Dark Side of the Force and bound it to his Light Side will.  He has nothing to fear of the Dark Side.  It is his ally.  It is under his control.  And he can bend it to his will.  It will not control him.  Ben was a fool to think it would.  Yoda wasn't strong enough to control it.  Not like Luke is.  Luke is truly the master of the Whole Force.  And with it, not only will he bring down the Evil Empire- he will bring peace to the Galaxy.  He will bend the galaxy to his will, just as he has done the Dark Side of the Force.

2.a - I think this is really hard to pull off.  When the Emperor says things like "Strike me/Vader down and your journey to the dark side will be complete!"  I think Luke must be thinking: "I bet I can strike him down and not be totally won over to the Dark Side... Why would killing one or two evil men, even in anger, makeover my moral view of the galaxy and instantly make me join an enemy?  He can't be serious!"  I can't really see Luke deciding to serve the Emperor in the near future no matter what happens in the Emperor's throne/thrown room.

2.b Rather, I think Luke would kill the Emperor, with the Dark Side, but not chose to serve him.  He would emerge from this experience less afraid of the Dark Side.  More sure of himself.  Palpatine and Yoda both said that just a little taste of the Dark Side would change Luke forever... Well- they were wrong!  It didn't change Luke.  He was the same as he ever was.  In fact, he was better!  He no longer had to fear treading down the dark path and becoming his father.  He was above that!  And of course, it would be these feelings of triumth and disregard for the warnings he had been given that would ultimately be his downfall.  The Emperor taunting him about instantly becoming a servant of the Dark Side would cause him to focus on the near term effects (which don't really exist) and ignore the long term effects. 

The 2.a scenario is along the lines of Anakin's fall in RotS.  I can't for the life of me think of how this single scene could be changed to make it end with Anakin joining the Dark Side full time.  I can see him momentarily employing the Dark Side to get himself out of a jam- and then maybe losing his fear of the Dark Side to where he's using it a lot... and then finding that he doesn't agree with every point of Jedi doctrine... being outcast from the Jedi once they hind his usage of the Dark Side to be unrepentant... and before long... he's a Dark Jedi.

It makes you wonder if they are considering reshooting ROTJ's ending for the sequels, or perhaps beginning Episode 7 with a replay of the throne room scene going differently...

I wish that I could just wish my feelings away...but I can't.  Wishful wishing can only lead to wishes wished for in futile wishfulness, which is not what I wish to wish for. 

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1990osu said:

It makes you wonder if they are considering reshooting ROTJ's ending for the sequels, or perhaps beginning Episode 7 with a replay of the throne room scene going differently...

That's not true. That's IMPOSSIBLE!

I agree that the scene strains credulity however. The first time that I watched it, I was absolutely sure that Luke wouldn't be turned to the Dark Side. There was no question in my mind. Luke was a hero. He was us, the audience. And so the scene played out. The point of the scene, I think, was to show the audience that he who can make you angry can control you. The only question that Luke had was in what Vader was thinking when he let Luke escape Cloud City. When that scene is reenacted with Luke as the antagonist, he feels the same as Vader in that moment. In that moment, father and son are as one, both equally culpable in their use of the Dark Side. However, Luke is still himself. He used the Dark Side, and was not turned. So here was the answer to his question, about whether Anakin was in some way still alive. Indeed he was.

"Never. I'll never turn to the Dark Side. You've failed, your highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me."

He states that Anakin yet lives. Therefore he is saying that not only did the Emperor fail to convert him, he failed to even convert Anakin.

Of course, I disregard the prequels in this analysis.

What a grand and intoxicating innocence. How could you be so naive? There is no escape. Come, lay down your weapons. It is not too late for my mercy.
A New Hope Technicolor Recreation (Released!)
The Force Awakens Restructured (V3 Released!) and The Starlight Project (WORKPRINT RELEASED!)

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But what if Vader hadn't been in the throne room?

It would have been a much less interesting scene, that's for sure.

In my mind, the Emperor was clearly stronger than Luke, and Luke would have died. This raises the question of why Yoda would send him off unprepared. He did warn Luke not to underestimate the Emperor, but Luke probably thought that he was in for an emotional battle with the Emperor, not a physical one. When he throws away his lightsaber, it may be as much for Anakin as it is for the Emperor. It's as if Luke is saying "See father, I don't fear this man, and neither should you."

Of course, this horribly backfires, but it also pushes Vader to make a choice.

So if Vader wasn't there, and Luke just happened to be before the Emperor, the Emperor probably wouldn't have even tried to turn him. Remember, he said: "Only together can we turn him to the Dark Side of the Force." The Emperor is relying on Vader, so without Vader, Luke would just be imprisoned or more likely killed outright.

What a grand and intoxicating innocence. How could you be so naive? There is no escape. Come, lay down your weapons. It is not too late for my mercy.
A New Hope Technicolor Recreation (Released!)
The Force Awakens Restructured (V3 Released!) and The Starlight Project (WORKPRINT RELEASED!)

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Good analysis, Neverar.

Keep Circulating the Tapes.

END OF LINE

(It hasn’t happened yet)

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NeverarGreat said:

1990osu said:

It makes you wonder if they are considering reshooting ROTJ's ending for the sequels, or perhaps beginning Episode 7 with a replay of the throne room scene going differently...

That's not true. That's IMPOSSIBLE!

I agree that the scene strains credulity however. The first time that I watched it, I was absolutely sure that Luke wouldn't be turned to the Dark Side. There was no question in my mind. Luke was a hero. He was us, the audience. And so the scene played out. The point of the scene, I think, was to show the audience that he who can make you angry can control you. The only question that Luke had was in what Vader was thinking when he let Luke escape Cloud City. When that scene is reenacted with Luke as the antagonist, he feels the same as Vader in that moment. In that moment, father and son are as one, both equally culpable in their use of the Dark Side. However, Luke is still himself. He used the Dark Side, and was not turned. So here was the answer to his question, about whether Anakin was in some way still alive. Indeed he was.

"Never. I'll never turn to the Dark Side. You've failed, your highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me."

He states that Anakin yet lives. Therefore he is saying that not only did the Emperor fail to convert him, he failed to even convert Anakin.

Of course, I disregard the prequels in this analysis.

What does religious conversion have anything to do with defeating the galactic empire??? Why not just turn to the darkside??? A sith lord can be good. Even if that's incorrect and false, not all darksiders are sith, the sith are just a specific sect/cult of darksider force users......

For instance, luke skywalker could turn to the darkside and still be on the rebel's side. Obi wan kenobi and yoda wanted luke skywalker to kill his father not because he was an evil dictator/tyrant who used a planet destroyer (the death star) to keep people in line through fear, but because darth vader was basically a dark wizard with evil magical powers (the darkside of the force). Religious persecution........

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NeverarGreat said:

When he throws away his lightsaber, it may be as much for Anakin as it is for the Emperor. It's as if Luke is saying "See father, I don't fear this man, and neither should you."

I read that more as, 'I choose the light side over potential death' than 'I don't fear the emperor'.  Or, perhaps, a hybrid 'I don't fear death, I fear the darkside' or even 'Because I'm a jedi, I'd rather die than join the darkside.  There's nothing for which I would join the darkside'

It's him restating, 'I will not fight you.'

 

IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!

"[George Lucas] rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone." -skyjedi2005

"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.

Rewrite the Prequels!