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Lucas to sue Star Wars designer — Page 2

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Well Mollo had no input as to the physical sculpting of the helmets.Ainsworth claims he sculpted the original helmet and buck however some details will doubtless come out as to who in fact did this work.AA manufactured them-plain and simple and the look,design and intellectual property rights will be held by Lucasfilm.

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zombie84 said:

Ralph McQuarrie has always been legit when he sells his stuff.

This guy on the other hand--what IS he claiming exactly? That he DESIGNED them? McQuarrie designed them, and John Mollo translated the designs into a physical costume. This guy just worked at the factory they were manufactured in. So, putting aside the issue of licencing, he doesn't even have a claim to anything in the first place.


If I read it right, what he's claiming is that he does have a right to sell them and make a profit since the only agreement that was in place was a verbal one. He's not saying that LFL doesn't also have a right to sell them, he's just saying that there was no contract in place transferring all the rights to Lucas. Considering that the agreement was entered into before Star Wars made it big and before Lucas even expected Star Wars to be a huge success, I wonder if that's what really happened.

Here's how I see it possibly taking place:

Lucas: Hey, can you guys make me some suits of armor with helmets that look like this?
Armor guys: Yeah, we can do that. How many do you need?
Lucas: I need this many and I need them by this date.
Armor guys: No problem.

Armor guys then go to work on making armor with nothing more than a "Yeah, we can do that" agreement in place. They later invoice LFL for the cost of the armor and each party goes their separate ways, at least until the next movie (which nobody knows will happen at that point).

Seeing as how Lucas wasn't able to shut down Parks Sabers, this guy may have a case. Worst case scenario is that he gets shut down. Best case scenario is that he can't use the term "stormtrooper" so instead he starts using "spacetrooper". Just like how Parks Sabers are not lightsabers, even though they look just like them.
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Ainsworth is actually claiming he OWNS the rights to the design of the trooper helmets and armour and he is countersuing Lucasfilm for a share of the merchandising from the Star Wars films.He claims he not only fabricated but designed them into what we know as the stormtrooper.
Unlike Parks sabers where the term lightsaber,which is trademarked,was the contention the sabers Jeff Parks actually sold were different enough from the movie designs that he could get away with it by shortening to the term saber.SDS are selling exact replicas also using trademarked emblems without license.Honestly he hasn't a hope in hell of being able to prove that those designs are his intellectual property.

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It's licensed with authorization:

© 1977 Lucasfilm, Ltd. & ™. All rights reserved. Used under authorization. Unauthorized duplication is a violation of applicable law.

You'll find that on the page.

lordjedi said:

vbangle said:

wookieewok said:

You don't see McQuarrie making money out of his SW artwork, and he originated the designs in the first place.



http://www.dreamsandvisionspress.com/order/index.php



LOL Didn't expect to see a link like that.
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wookieewok said:

vbangle said:

wookieewok said:

You don't see McQuarrie making money out of his SW artwork, and he originated the designs in the first place.



http://www.dreamsandvisionspress.com/order/index.php



Nice book, I got one. McQuarrie had Lucas' blessing, though. This topic is about a prop maker that is profiting off an intellectual property without permission.



HUH? So why would you say, "You don't see McQuarrie making money out of his SW artwork" when have his book? You aren't making much sense....


Look, the ONLY reason why McQuarrie can make any profit on HIS artwork is that Lucas knows that if he dicked with McQuarrie, Star Wars fans would rebel and fuck with GL's bottom line....better to split the profits with him than to piss off everybody.....

this little one man operation somewhere arcoss the pond, no cares about....George knows he can have his way with him and there won't be any lasting price to pay.....

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Well the case is pretty much over and is expected to close tomorrow or at latest Wednesday.Ainsowrth is effectively sunk with testimony and evidence that it was in fact the late Liz Moore who sculpted the trooper helmet and Brian Muir who sculpted the armour.Andrew Ainsworth,as I understand it from people at the court,has come across VERY badly.This is,of course,unsurprising as he is a notorious liar.

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lucas should sue his own ass over his stupidity regarding the oot.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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Bingowings said:

Lucas lost this round.

I'm so happy for this bloke, good on him.  Lucasfilm pushed and pushed and now anyone can make these.

But clearly this guy's would be the best as the moulds are the originals.

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No, and no amount of nerd rage is going to make this a David and Gloiath story as the media and some blinkered fanboys would love to see this.  Ainsworth is a vacu-former, who made landscape pond liners.  He was hired to vacuform the TK lids from the sculpture Liz Moore created (this came to light when Brian Muir came out with some info on the RPF boards after the first ruling).  Ainsworth WAITED until she had DIED to try and claim that he alone sculpted the helmet.  He has further claimed over the last few years that he designed around 200(!) characters in ANH; that LFL just told him to make whatever, and they threw it into the film.  He claims that all he was given was a copy of 2" sketch of the whole character, but "that was enough for me(sic)."  The art leads on the film do not recall ever having spoken to him.  He was a tech responsible for reproducing the helmet en masse, not an artist or designer. 

The judge who ruled on the case did not decide for Ainsworth.  Rather, he said Ainsworth's story kept changing, was faintly absurd and overall not credible.  However under UK law the judge ruled that the design fell under industrial design (which carries a 15 year max copyright) and not a work of art. The ruling was not that Ainsworth was the creator or owner, but that the copyright had expired, and anyone could produce and sell within the UK. LFL has won the right to pursue for damages on product sold in the US from the Uk court, and we'll see if they persue that option. 

Ainsworth has been utterly unable to demonstrate that he can convincingly sculpt anything, producing absurdly clumsy sculpts in an attempt to give his case some credibility.  It has FURTHER been pretty clearly shown that what he has, which he is passing off as his original ANH molds, is a recast of pieces of a RotJ suit, and a recast of an inaccurate fan-made helmet.  His molds are so far from ANH screen accurate, let alone original, that when new details came to light very recently about the teardrop indents, he frantically requested pictures from people so he could ADD THOSE DETAILS TO HIS SUPPOSEDLY ORIGINAL MOLDS. 

There's more, much more, but understand that this guy is a lying sack of crap, and a psychopath, willing to say and do anything, including taking credit from an artist who cannot respond, and above all of THAT who does not even have any better pieces than your average ebay seller, but charges vastly more.  No matter what your feelings about LFL they are CLEARLY in the right in this case, not Ainsworth who is a common recaster trying to pass off his crap as something it demonstrateably cannot be, and not some heroic artist taking on "the man".

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This, ladies and gentlemen, is the dark side of the whole "copyrights" thing.

On the one hand, it's there to prevent people from making tons of money at the expense of people who actually put significant work into a given product.

On the other hand, to protect rich companies already wallowing in profit from... having a small portion of yet more profit taken by people who actually put the work in.

I understand, at first it's like "we need those costumes designed, but you see how we're spending lots of money on this project (incl. paying you) and do a lot of coordination work etc., and we're not getting the money back, or profit, without selling these merchandising products, too... sorry" - but after 40 years have passed and the company already got nigga-rich, not least due to the... merchandising?
"Nah, we're not gonna let this guy have a piece now, we need someone... to protect our rights!!!"

The dark side, people... the Dark Side.

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That makes fascinating reading INv8r_ZIM

I wonder where this leaves other iconic designs like the 1963 Daleks, sure the 2005 designs are still currently covered Industrial designs but any of the other variants would  be subject to comparison with the later versions I guess.

The Terry Nation estate is every bit as relentless at tracking down copy violations (possibly more so) even though he never designed the Daleks (double standards).

If I were Lucas's people preparing an appeal I'd be digging around past rulings over those dastardly pepper pots and see if previous rulings for them still hold true.

Another case where the Doctor could rescue Lucas (he rescues Hitler in the trailer for the next episode) is with the outer shape of the Tardis.

It's police box shape is now BBC copy even though it's a police box designed primarily for the Metropolitan Police Force who lost their case against the BBC because they had stopped using the design and it was now associated more with it's new context.

Seeing as Lucas is still using his commissioned design he might have a legitimate claim against a guy who only recently started using it for his buisness.

Could various new designs be basically Stormtrooper shaped but then registered as new copy by the fabricator for 15 years (as long as long as the word Stormtrooper didn't feature) ?

If not wouldn't LFL then have a case of comparison with the Clone Trooper designs for AOTC?

They aren't the same but they have significant points of comparison (much more than Apple use to bring their actions over software copy).

Presumably the Clone War armor has (in the UK) a short copy life left to it too. 

So what you're saying is this guy is doing is using his documented past connection with the first film to promote recently mashed up copies of other people's post 1977 sculpts?

Sounds like OCP movie has a whole new revenue pool to plunge into. 

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twooffour said: the company already got nigga-rich...

?

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CP3S said:

twooffour said: the company already got nigga-rich...

?
Obviously you didn't read his whole post. I did, and I can safely say...

???

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Yeah, I'm not seeing this as a good thing either. I can't put my finger on it, but something about blurring the line between film designs and art doesn't sit right with me. Sure, the stormtrooper helmet design is a work of art, but its also immediately identified with a movie series which is under copyright. Does that mean that in the UK you can make a movie visually identical to an older movie, as long as you don't use any of the character names?

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Cupid Stunt says:

I hear Michael Bay does it in the USA.

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If Lucas hires someone to design something for him, and that person designs it as a term of his employment, then whether or not Lucas designed it, he owns the design.  I'm no fan of Lucas, but in this case I think he has every right to protect the designs that are so integral to his product line.

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twooffour said:

Oh, don't get your panties in a bunch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKd35EmCIx8#t=75

My panties aren't in a bunch; while I am not a huge fan of the term, my question mark is because you used it COMPLETELY wrong. Presumably just so you could use the word "nigger" and sound cool.

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^ Not because he used it, but because his use of it was as irrelevant and nonsensical as his use of the term "nigga-rich".

 

I find myself feeling much the same way as 005 on this topic. I'd much rather side with the little guy than the giant money making entity, but in this case it does feel like LFL should own the rights to the design. I actually agree it would be pretty cool to own a Storm Trooper helmet made by the guy who manufactured the original ones, but it also sounds like he uses a bit of dishonesty in his marketing (original molds, which would truly be something, but simply isn't true), but even so, he should be paying royalties like everyone else who manufactures and sells replicas. He didn't even design the thing in the first place, really doesn't feel like he should have any claim whatsoever on this.

I used to work in home construction, I worked on a few houses that used the same blue prints, I even made a few "deliberate creative decisions" along the way, adding my own signature to those houses, but it doesn't mean I have the right to go build that exact same house today. I have no claim to those blue prints, which are copyrighted material and belong to the contractor I worked for. If I went out and built a house on my own using his design, he'd have every right to sue me. In the same way, a guy who works at McDonald's for several years has no right to quit and go into business on his own making and selling his own Big Macs, even though he spent years "manufacturing" the things. A similar two patty hamburger under a different name would be just fine, but using the McDonald's trademarks to sell his burgers wouldn't.

If this guy hadn't been blatantly using LFL copyright logos and calling them the LFL trademarked name, I don't imagine we would ever have heard about this story, and even if we did, I think the guy would have had decent legs to stand on.

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Are all the people who make stormtrooper armor (and other iconic SW costumes) in their garage and sell on places like Ebay or elsewhere too small potatoes for Lucasfilm to care about?

I got a trooper helmet off Ebay a few years back that's pretty nice, but I have no idea who made it.

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CP3S said:

twooffour said:

Oh, don't get your panties in a bunch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKd35EmCIx8#t=75

My panties aren't in a bunch; while I am not a huge fan of the term, my question mark is because you used it COMPLETELY wrong. Presumably just so you could use the word "nigger" and sound cool.

Not really.
The term has multiple meanings all centered around the general "flavor" of being rich and douchey/stupid in some way, shape or form.
It may be "acting up your wealth", or "being rich, and pretentious about it", or "showing off by buying useless stuff", generally being wasteful with the money, having more or less suddenly and/or undeservedly received a lot of money and now acting otherwise, etc.

So that last one doesn't REALLY apply to Lucasfilm, but it SORTA does if you consider that they've basically been milking the SW franchise with an overload of "commercial" merchandise (that probably helped devalue the actual new movies) and mediocre-bad entertainment material.
Plus if you think about how Lucas (and his companions) often "kinda" take the credit for other people's work (Lucas doesn't claim to have directed what he hasn't, or designed what he hasn't, but we all know how it is don't we), and now kinda "acting up" by suing people who've done certain work, in order to get yet more money out of... selling the costumes.


So yea, I thought using that term was perfectly legitimate in that context.


Now, that doesn't mean I think TOO one-sidedly about this issue. Sure, it does go the other way round - namely in the designer trying to cash in on the hype.
Would anyone buy his design if it was from some obscure art collection? No, people want it because the filmmakers using that design made damn fuckin' popular movies with it and given the design a big name.

Still, when you consider all of the above (not so much the formalities, but the common sense), you kinda do stop to think that maybe, just maybe, the "copyright laws" are now extending beyond the area where they make perfect legitimate sense.

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     I thought the story of Apple computor suing MS over the Mac GUI was amusing. They got the basic idea from Xerox.  It's all LFL property. Only they should profit from their iconic symbols. They are trademarks of a sort. LFL should hire whomever they please to develope their universe.

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And what if a certain iconic symbol was originally a vintage camera flash gun? ;)

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